Gwen Stacy Appreciation Thread 2022

[Frontier]

I realised there isn't one of these for Gwen (there is one for Spider-Gwen, but not original Gwen) so I thought I'd make one? Hopefully that's not stepping on anyone's toes.

Here, have a picture of Gwen chilling out on a pier after a night of drinking.

Attachment 118513

Where is this image from?

[Lukmendes]

I hear you, man. That mini was horrendous and I was happy when I discovered it had basically been thrown in the darkness. Gwen acted like a discount Kim Possible and the "flirting" with Norman was vomit inducing (she said to him "The Green Goblin is muscled and young" and then she blushed basically saying "You're muscled too for your age" )

What she says there is that Green Goblin is athletic, likely to be young and strong (She thinks it's someone from the army), while Norman is not those things, the way she worded it sounded like an insult and that's why she got embarassed.

I see no flirting at all in their interaction.

To answer Lukmendes' question, Osborn was mentioned to have done the whole military contract thing in Marvel Knights.
Attachment 120034

Should've guessed it was from that, thanks.

Early Gwen is intelligent, a bit spoiled, kinda manipulative, and a little nasty, and this adaption doesn't wholly disregard these traits. It's unneeded to soften edges for modern audiences, but I prefer this over Romita's rewrite for the 1960s readership. It'd be a lie if I said the burden of being St. Gwen, Spider-man's deceased love interest ain't stifling her character.

The problem is how this doesn't sound like Ditko Gwen either, this here feels like a "wise beyond her years" type, when Ditko Gwen was an immature brat, and Gwen was never shown to be interested in getting involved with cop related ****.

She's written more like Carlier, to the point that, if the mini revealed that it was Carlie all along, and that Gwen was somewhere else getting high or somethin', it'd explain why there was such a huge difference in personality lol.

There was no blushing. The idea a friend's father could be a suspect was silly to her, so Gwen laughed at Osborn for getting worked up for nothing. As her romantic relationship did with Peter and Spidey, her platonic association with Harry blinded her to the truth before her. Like a typical teenager, she assumed "an Olympic-level athlete" would be "Young and strong, not..." Gwen apologizes because she tried explaining why she felt the concept was absurd and realized she was seconds away from insulting her friend's father's physique to his face. Osborn fills in the silence by agreeing a "middle-aged desk jockey" doesn't fit her account.

She's also not aware of Goblin Serum (Nobody was by that point), and the fact that she thinks that GG has to be someone athletic means she thinks GG has no super powers, and considering early GG didn't show a lot of strength feats, it makes sense for her to assume so.

She has little reason to suspect GG is Norman regardless of Harry being her friend or not.

[Spidey_62]

Where is this image from?

That's from the Spider-Man/X-Men mini-series that did an issue for 4 different decades of each's history, they did another with Spider-Man/F4 after that.

[Frontier]

That's from the Spider-Man/X-Men mini-series that did an issue for 4 different decades of each's history, they did another with Spider-Man/F4 after that.

Thanks for the info!

[Tabs]

She's already acting like the Gwen Peter remembers in this series, I think the point of it might be to show Gwen becomes the person Peter initially MEETS, who was an icy b*tch.

Nah. I see your point, but Gwendolyn is more immaculate than that! Peter's idea of Ms. Stacy would have politely removed the blackgaurd harassing her and gotten a teacher involved rather than shove an innocent cupcake in his face. And was that canoodling in a public library? Imaginary Gwen simply wouldn't hold to such unladylike nonsense. She's motioning religious gestures to ward off evil at the thought.

If it were up to me I'd make comic writers watch scenes with Marci Stahl from Daredevil for inspiration. I won't say Gwen's a b*tch but she's got flaws and they're both fun and interesting.

What she says there is that Green Goblin is athletic, likely to be young and strong (She thinks it's someone from the army), while Norman is not those things, the way she worded it sounded like an insult and that's why she got embarassed.

I see no flirting at all in their interaction.


Should've guessed it was from that, thanks.


The problem is how this doesn't sound like Ditko Gwen either, this here feels like a "wise beyond her years" type, when Ditko Gwen was an immature brat, and Gwen was never shown to be interested in getting involved with cop related ****.

She's written more like Carlier, to the point that, if the mini revealed that it was Carlie all along, and that Gwen was somewhere else getting high or somethin', it'd explain why there was such a huge difference in personality lol.


She's also not aware of Goblin Serum (Nobody was by that point), and the fact that she thinks that GG has to be someone athletic means she thinks GG has no super powers, and considering early GG didn't show a lot of strength feats, it makes sense for her to assume so.

She has little reason to suspect GG is Norman regardless of Harry being her friend or not.

NP. The run that canonizes Mayday's murder is rarely far from my Spider-related thoughts.

Whenever I start with rationalizing, it means I've tossed headcanons in. It's been a while since I've read it, so canon-unsupported assumptions have infiltrated the cracks.

I want to point out that the tmlotas flashback shows Gwen asking Carlie not to mention dead mothers, or death talk in general, suggesting her mom has recently passed. It's fair to assume a preteen would be upset by pictures of actual victims, more so if they've freshly experienced loss. Carlie takes to the exposed photos like a "true crime" fan, but some people can't fw the genre for a reason. It's graphic, dehumanizing, and it features real people. Gwen's upset, but she notices the attire is several years outdated and mentions the barrettes. We see her help Carlie and the police department solve the case. It's not unreasonable to propose this event would impact an impressionable girl. Years later, she's discussing the mafia with her father, and she admits to her *boyfriend she's afraid for her dad before he gets shot. Carlie Cooper mentions in the flashback that George "doesn't treat her like she's three" and we see this includes familiarizing her on his work.

*Darius LeClerk. It's unlikely he had the time to whip out a cellphone and tell anyone that George was meeting with an informant but Osborn states they need no introduction, declares him the best defense in the city, and mentions his father designed and built several Oscorp* buildings. Might be setting up a betrayal.

*Second aside, anyone else miffed they're not calling it Osborn industries in this mini? I liked the old name.

Unlike the situation with Carlie, her dad's not laying out graphic pictures of strangled women with tears in their sightless eyes. The one time an actual victim is referenced, it's some stranger named Ben Parker. Gwen doesn't know him, yet she's unsettled.

This Gwen is mature than I think she should be but I don't think she's quite reached wise beyond her years yet.Not for the genre anyway, She's intelligent but she misses things and, as with Carlie, her supporting cast is essential.

Gwen doesn't seem to understand how threatening Gwen worked so well against a fighter like George. Harry explains that when push came to shove it was continuing on vs her welfare and George picked her. This inspires her to put her welfare at risk to save her father. Osborn's computers are employed to amass evidence, and Harry's the reason Gwen knows the glider exists. Without Harry, this amateur investigation might not have started and he provided valuable information.

She doesn't notice how her accusation makes Osborn lose his composure. He cracks his whiskey glass before her and immediately outs his secret identity. I use the Spidey analogy because if Gage makes villains this bad at masking reactions, she looks less observant for not detecting it. Gwen mentions she doesn't believe someone related to Harry is implicated. Osborn is known to her, so his conduct isn't seen as a red flag. This is why officals can recuse IRL. The formula is unknown to Gwen, but she lives on an interconnected earth. She never questions if a guy shown straddling a flying broomstick missile might be, say, a mutant. Mutants could be anyone. In the story, Foswell notes the Green Goblin's behavior has altered. He suspects the villain is working with someone else. Cue the Crime-Master. With Osborn's behavior and Goblin's switch to the glider, a reasonable third-party would suspect a moneyed industrialist might be supplying the underworld.

[Digifiend]

Bleeding Cool are covering the Amazon listing for the trade collection of the short-lived mini-series, now known as Who's That Girl, and can confirm the listing is indeed genuine and that solicits will be coming soon.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/gwen...tion-mia-list/

I'm pretty sure "Who's That Girl" is just the volume name of the TPB. The floppies wouldn't have that name on the cover.

[Lukmendes]

Whenever I start with rationalizing, it means I've tossed headcanons in. It's been a while since I've read it, so canon-unsupported assumptions have infiltrated the cracks.

I want to point out that the tmlotas flashback shows Gwen asking Carlie not to mention dead mothers, or death talk in general, suggesting her mom has recently passed. It's fair to assume a preteen would be upset by pictures of actual victims, more so if they've freshly experienced loss. Carlie takes to the exposed photos like a "true crime" fan, but some people can't fw the genre for a reason. It's graphic, dehumanizing, and it features real people. Gwen's upset, but she notices the attire is several years outdated and mentions the barrettes. We see her help Carlie and the police department solve the case. It's not unreasonable to propose this event would impact an impressionable girl. Years later, she's discussing the mafia with her father, and she admits to her *boyfriend she's afraid for her dad before he gets shot. Carlie Cooper mentions in the flashback that George "doesn't treat her like she's three" and we see this includes familiarizing her on his work.

All of this would need to work under the assumption that Marvel remembers Gwen and Carlie were friends, which, outside of Many loves of Spidey, they never did.

And even if Gage does remember Carlie being friends with Gwen (Which, he doesn't, he was one of the writers of Superior#31 alongside Slott, and Carlie had the perfect chance to mention she knows Gwen, but she talks like they didn't known each other), that still wouldn't explain Gwen's weird interest in helping out with crimes, when she didn't seem to give a **** about at any point in the Lee/Romita era.

This Gwen is mature than I think she should be but I don't think she's quite reached wise beyond her years yet.Not for the genre anyway, She's intelligent but she misses things and, as with Carlie, her supporting cast is essential.

She's far more mature than the people around her, saying that people should be focusing on electing someone who'd be competent as class president instead of popularity, and Harry says "We're in High School".

Ditko Gwen acted like she was still in high school with her princess attitude, so it looks really weird for her to sound more mature in what should be a prequel of her first appearances, and then become someone completely different.

And Carlie is nowhere to be seen here lol.

Gwen doesn't seem to understand how threatening Gwen worked so well against a fighter like George. Harry explains that when push came to shove it was continuing on vs her welfare and George picked her. This inspires her to put her welfare at risk to save her father. Osborn's computers are employed to amass evidence, and Harry's the reason Gwen knows the glider exists. Without Harry, this amateur investigation might not have started and he provided valuable information.

She doesn't notice how her accusation makes Osborn lose his composure. He cracks his whiskey glass before her and immediately outs his secret identity. I use the Spidey analogy because if Gage makes villains this bad at masking reactions, she looks less observant for not detecting it. Gwen mentions she doesn't believe someone related to Harry is implicated. Osborn is known to her, so his conduct isn't seen as a red flag. This is why officals can recuse IRL. The formula is unknown to Gwen, but she lives on an interconnected earth. She never questions if a guy shown straddling a flying broomstick missile might be, say, a mutant. Mutants could be anyone. In the story, Foswell notes the Green Goblin's behavior has altered. He suspects the villain is working with someone else. Cue the Crime-Master. With Osborn's behavior and Goblin's switch to the glider, a reasonable third-party would suspect a moneyed industrialist might be supplying the underworld.

I mean, she isn't a master at investigation (She's still far better than she should be anyways), my point is how it's dumb she's doing an investigation at all.

Plus Norman's reaction would be understandable even if he wasn't GG, being accused of being someone like GG is a big deal.

And I said she has no reason to suspect Norman would be GG, because she doesn't think GG is super powered, regardless of other supers being around, she could suspect Norman is involved with GG, but I guess by that point being Harry's friend gets in the way, and I guess how Norman let 'em do an investigation would make her less suspicious of him too.

Regardless, Gwen is too mature and too proactive to be anything like Ditko's Gwen or the two different Gwens from under Lee/Romita, she's yet another personality that isn't fitting with the rest, which, might be Marvel trying to make her a bit more like Spider-Gwen, since Zdarsky made a Gwen from another universe who was similar to this one in his Spectacular run (#304 and #305), was another universe though.

[Tabs]

All of this would need to work under the assumption that Marvel remembers Gwen and Carlie were friends, which, outside of Many loves of Spidey, they never did.

And even if Gage does remember Carlie being friends with Gwen (Which, he doesn't, he was one of the writers of Superior#31 alongside Slott, and Carlie had the perfect chance to mention she knows Gwen, but she talks like they didn't known each other), that still wouldn't explain Gwen's weird interest in helping out with crimes, when she didn't seem to give a **** about at any point in the Lee/Romita era.



She's far more mature than the people around her, saying that people should be focusing on electing someone who'd be competent as class president instead of popularity, and Harry says "We're in High School".

Ditko Gwen acted like she was still in high school with her princess attitude, so it looks really weird for her to sound more mature in what should be a prequel of her first appearances, and then become someone completely different.

And Carlie is nowhere to be seen here lol.



I mean, she isn't a master at investigation (She's still far better than she should be anyways), my point is how it's dumb she's doing an investigation at all.

Plus Norman's reaction would be understandable even if he wasn't GG, being accused of being someone like GG is a big deal.

And I said she has no reason to suspect Norman would be GG, because she doesn't think GG is super powered, regardless of other supers being around, she could suspect Norman is involved with GG, but I guess by that point being Harry's friend gets in the way, and I guess how Norman let 'em do an investigation would make her less suspicious of him too.

Regardless, Gwen is too mature and too proactive to be anything like Ditko's Gwen or the two different Gwens from under Lee/Romita, she's yet another personality that isn't fitting with the rest, which, might be Marvel trying to make her a bit more like Spider-Gwen, since Zdarsky made a Gwen from another universe who was similar to this one in his Spectacular run (#304 and #305), was another universe though.

I have to assume interconnectivity when the book is 616 property but you're right in saying authors leave out relationships all the time. I mean, Dan Slott created her and he didn't reference it. The negative audience responses to Ms Cooper throws doubt over whether Gage will use Carlie but the flashback did mention it had been some time since the two ladies met up. Pauses and skips in a friendship between young people might be the in-universe excuse for why she's not there.

I'm a former SCA representative, and I took that as Gage either had no idea what High school Student Presidents do, Ms. Stacy was uninformed about the position, or Gwen was kinda being a brat.

Harry was right. It's a popularity contest with little actual control. Gwen would have slightly more of a point if she were running for class treasurer. High school student presidents are not like their college counterparts. Teachers supervise every step of the way, and a vice-principal shows up occasionally to see what projects everyone voted for to raise money(we all came up with ideas). I remember a lot of car washes, FOD walks, bake sales, writing letters to elementary students pretending to be Santa, etc. Basically, it's just there for extracurricular college bait, prestige volunteering with attached paperwork. The whole point is to test how well you can market yourself.

Her competition is a lettered athlete on the Basketball team. This means Cameron would need to maintain a decent grade point average, be familiar with fund-raising since it's expected on a team, have travel experience, is noted in-comic to be good with people, and presumably knows how to keep up with schedules, etc. Not all athletes can do the above, but there's more of an expectation when an athlete has earned his Letter. Meanwhile, she's got free cupcakes. Delicious but not credentials. What programs is she involved in? Where is her prior experience? She didn't itemize what allegedly disqualified him, so there are no signs he can't function as a friendly neighborhood figurehead as well as her. Gage either expects me to side with Gwen over some rando or plans to pull a deconstruction, but maturity is the last thing I'd see in a candidate if I heard a hopeful talk like that. How will you get patrons to support your fund-raising goals if you can't even sell yourself to your peers?

I do get your point but she started this crusade to help her dad keep his job rather than a desire for heroism. Her dad has always been important to her so I'm willing to give it more of a slide. The enforcers have that noted connection with GG as does Harry. The characterization is a lil off but she hasn't done anything an intelligent person with access to a heir from a company with advanced tech which includes an iconic transportation medium used by the perp and the daughter of a Captain connected to a nepotistic police department that lets her do whatever she wants because she's the boss' kid, can't. Yet. Those two features provide the means to push the plot, and George Stacy's injury provides his daughter the motivation.

Gwen didn't say Osborn was the Green Goblin. Ms. Stacy is questioning his involvement by seeing if Osborn sold it to someone. If he remembers who bought it. Osborn automatically assumed a teenager was accusing him of being a criminal, putting his response under the suspiciously specific denial trope. He threatened himself when he declared he shared the information with many groups, and the project didn't function. If she were the police, she got a warrant, and anyone finds one working glider on his property, he's moved from suspicious to "suspect". Unlikely to happen since he's so rich, but ordinary people would be at risk of police involvement. Spectacular handled it better with the "That contemptible green scalawag stole my property" misdirection plot.

[Lukmendes]

I doubt he's using Carlie Cooper because of negative audience responses to a new character.

By the time the comic was out, Spencer had already fixed Carlie's character to the point readers didn't detest her as much, and she kept showing up later in his run and the complaints were unrelated to her, generally she was either praised for not being annoying anymore, suspected as a Kindred potential (I remember seeing a few wondering if she could be Kindred when ASM#45 suddenly starts with her past being explained), or just ignored.

If this comic was made before Spencer took over, I would understand Carlie's absence being related to her unpopularity, but now I'd doubt it.

I have to assume interconnectivity when the book is 616 property. The flashback did mention it had been some time since the two ladies met up, so that might be the excuse for why she's not there.

Well, Gwen says that it's been forever since they met, but they were still kids when that comment was made, that can leave room for them to meet later.

On the other hand, checking out the comic again, there is this bit saying that Carlie and Gwen haven't met again since they were children:



"I only met Gwen when we were children".

So yeah, Carlie not being around makes sense, but I'd still bet it's because Gage isn't aware of their friendship over him actually knowing this detail lol.

Either way, while I did mention Carlie as the one who does the investigation, it wouldn't even have to be her too, I just find it jarring that Gwen of all people is doing the investigation.

I'm a former SCA representative, and I took that as Gage either had no idea what High school Student Presidents do, Ms. Stacy was uninformed about the position, or Gwen was kinda being a brat.

Probably the first one, Student President is generally a position of power in media, can get silly when it looks like they run the whole school, the way it's used here is to establish Gwen's character more than anything, since it quickly loses relevance.

I do get your point but she started this crusade to help her dad keep his job rather than a desire for heroism. Her dad has always been important to her so I'm willing to give it more of a slide. The enforcers have that noted connection with GG. The characterization is off but I'd argue she hasn't done anything an intelligent person with access to a heir from a company with advanced tech can't. Yet.

Yes I get where she's coming from, the problem is that she's still shown to be interested in crime outside of this since she brainstormed with her father, and she was even the one who started asking about the case, while her brainstorming with her father was likely used to establish how she can even do an investigation at all, it's still jarring for Gwen to know that much, or be interested.

Stuff like that is okay in a vacuum, but considering the comic is pretending that it's about celebrating Gwen's character, it looks bad when it contradicts her later characterization so badly.

Gwen didn't say he was the Green Goblin. Ms. Stacy is questioning his involvement by seeing if Osborn sold it to someone and remembered who bought it. Osborn automatically assumed a teenager was accusing him of being a criminal, putting his response under the suspiciously specific denial trope.

She mentioned that Norman was involved in the project, the can make it sound like she's accusing him (I even assumed that when she said it), it's only after that she clears up that she meant if anyone else could have access to the plans.

He threatened himself when he declared he shared the information with many groups, and the project didn't function. If someone finds one working glider on his property, and he's moved from suspicious to "suspect". Unlikely to happen since he's so rich, but ordinary people would be at risk of police involvement. Spectacular handled it better with the "That contemptible green scalawag stole my property" misdirection plot.

Someone would need to investigate his place at all to try to pin it down on Norman, and he wasn't considered a suspect.

It'd be even harder to investigate it when later comics establish that Norman had a million secret bases, at best, police could find out they belong to him even if he bought under another company's name that belongs to Oscorp, but to be able to investigate them at all would require a mandate, and with him not even being a suspect, that'd be difficult, and that's even without mentioning how him being so rich would mean investigations against him would be even harder.

[Tabs]

Holy ****. I typed so much I ran out of space to quote you. So straight up, I agree with most of what you wrote, and I will now quibble over the deets.

Carlie hasn't existed as a character for very long so Gage should have some awareness that a friendship existed but he might not know (some) readers' opinions have changed. I still see exaggerated takes like “Carlie is the worst Spider-man character to ever happen to Petter Parker” but not as much. Thankfully. So he might not have wanted to risk losing sales.

Slott, who created the character, didn't have her their friendship factor too much in her thoughts. Her creator made her consider getting a Green Goblin tattoo out of spite against Peter. It's alarming that she's a cop, and Osborn is known to be responsible for hundreds of deaths after the culmination of Dark Reign, including her fellow officers. This is like an officer getting a tattoo that's a symbol associated with a terrorist organization. Guidelines would assert the ink artwork is unacceptable under "discriminatory, offensive or not comply[ing] with its Code of Ethics and Standards of Professional Behaviour". If Gage shows her being close to Gwen now, the temptation looks worse in retrospect. Why would someone's friend want that mask on her skin, even while drunk?

Tmlotas goes against Gwen's original character too and both girls now owe some characteristics to Jean DeWolff. The odd decisions are saved by constructing assumptions about Gwen's history from the dialogue. Carlie was presented as strong and audacious compared to a fragile and fearful Gwen Stacy, and clearly more intelligent as a bonus. The book was published when Carlie was still a minor character and not engaged in a romance with Peter, and Ms. Cooper was promoted. In retrospect, it's added to her character, so the jockeying is nowhere near as bad as, say, this:
tumblr_62a619c4bebdc5d3a555488a951ee0e8_770dcb96_640.jpg
But Gwen was ooc in that flashback compared to how she was in Ditko's era too but without it, I'd agree this would be random characterization. Different writers have improved Dan Slott's characters. The way Gwen's personality is treated isn’t so different from how JJ's portrayal in flashbacks has changed, too, as they've made him out to be a better man over time. People took aspects of what they liked from these characters handled by other writers and translated how they pictured them on the page—queue readership debates over the merits of their interpretations.

I consider this mini to be mid as far as personality goes. I like Gwen's flaws and want to see them. I know they're playing me, but it's still sweet to see what she's willing to do for her father. This potentially gives more insight into why she responds so strongly when he later dies on Spidey's watch. Now, Gwen imperiled herself as a teen to save her father's job, which means if Ms. Stacy had only let him retire as he'd chosen, he'd still be alive. That has exciting consequences for her character. It's not often that someone has an arc after her actual death, and I'd eat that up. I'd like it a damn sight more if writers stopped pitting fans of both women against each other.

I don't think this appearance features an entirely different woman. Her flaws are minimized, but they still exist. Even if the writer isn't focusing on it, Gage writes her as a character who bad mouths competition when his only "blemish" seems to be his popularity. She uses her relationship with her father to illegally obtain case information. If Harry is under 18, she illegally gained access to corporate computers to run the illegal information she'd been provided illegally before being caught. After catching her, the rightful owner consented, but he "did not know" how she obtained that data.

This means that evidence of criminality could've been left within the machine Ms. Stacy used or recorded by company cameras. Potentially she's gifted an unrevealed villain leverage over George by threatening to have his kid and the idiots who provided that information arrested. Osborn was "friends" with Jameson at this time, and JJ would love to expose police corruption and take down a respectable captain. Wait for the girl to graduate, and the guy that dubbed exonerated Luke Cage a drug dealer in his articles would see no reason not to strike. So why wouldn't Osborn record that for prosperity? Gwen is both unaware and not fully considering the consequences of her choices before committing to them. Like a typical privileged teenager who's used to getting her way. Absolutely shades of Ditko Gwen.

Osborn is presumably only taking advantage of a cop's daughter's mission to eliminate rival gangsters serving as his obstacles without estranging himself from those he wants to keep since he's in his "conquer the underworld" phase. But she potentially damned several individuals beyond herself: awesome sh*t and new continuity any future writer can reference. Or take the approach where he planned to use the details against Captain Stacy, the information unexpectedly depreciated after George's death, then one of the people who helped the boss' kid gets promoted, and he proceeds to collect on an old investment. Blackmail plots are a classic. Nobody will use that but let a man dream.

A proactive character acts before circumstances become a source of conflict or crisis. A reactive character responds to past actions rather than anticipating the future. She was reactive in the past comics, and she's reactive here too.

Whether Gage realizes it or not, she's manipulative, casually engaging in felonies(like unauthorized disclosure) if it suits her, and drags unsuspecting people into it. The cops at the station who assisted her are responsible now too. Her actions are solely for her father, so it builds on prior character bonds. Gage or, more likely, some other writers who aren't afraid to fully address her less stellar markers in this story could work with this portrayal. All the narrative has to do is hold her accountable. Or it could demonstrate why she behaves differently when she encounters Peter in college if there's a later comic set in the past. So I don't see it as bad as others here.

Those fictional SCA members are truly living out their best lives for real. I wanted to go mad with power too.

Forensic podiatry has several wins to its name. If People encounter legal problems for distinctive footwear, a glider would have gotten John Q. Public dragged into a station. The arrest of Tik Tocker Chozen Terrell-Hannah is a recent case. Norman Osborn is not a man on the clapham omnibus. So, yeah, good luck, hypothetical cops with integrity. Even when everyone knows he's guilty, he gets to walk free. My opinion isn't that she could get a charge to stick. A man of his wealth could knowingly sell a glider to an insurgent IRL and, unless something significant happened on the inter/national level, all that would usually result is bad PR from Amnesty international and maybe a fine despite violating several laws. The thing is, a more experienced investigator who didn't have that friendship with Harry would have felt some suspicion towards him. Not necessarily that he's the green goblin, but that he's involved. And doesn't consider whether he might be a mutant or a mutate. She assumes GG must be young because that is the understanding of her lived experience. She's written as an intelligent teenager who disregards some obvious tells and chooses to trust the word of an adult she knows.

I am so glad Gage didn't go with instant expert. I expect to be disappointed later. #4 and #5, do not look promising. Odds are I'll somehow manage to finagle my way into liking it.

[Lukmendes]

Holy ****. I typed so much I ran out of space to quote you. So straight up, I agree with most of what you wrote, and I will now quibble over the deets.

Carlie hasn't existed as a character for very long so Gage should have some awareness that a friendship existed but he might not know (some) readers' opinions have changed. I still see exaggerated takes like “Carlie is the worst Spider-man character to ever happen to Petter Parker” but not as much. Thankfully. So he might not have wanted to risk losing sales.

Exaggerated takes like that happen, even someone like MJ can be called a horrible love interest when her worst moments are tame compared to others in general.

I don't see Carlie being such an automatic sales drop, only if they did something stupid like calling the comic "Gwen Stacy" and have Carlie as the protagonist.

Slott, who created the character, didn't have her their friendship factor too much in her thoughts.

Wasn't a factor at all.

Her creator made her consider getting a Green Goblin tattoo out of spite against Peter.

She was drunk, drunk people are morons and make far worse decisions casually, and she didn't go for it anyways.

Tmlotas goes against Gwen's original character too and both girls now owe some characteristics to Jean DeWolff.

Far more understandable considering she was a kid, and going from a kid to a teenager can cause ridiculously drastic changes.

The odd decisions are saved by constructing assumptions about Gwen's history from the dialogue. Carlie was presented as strong and audacious compared to a fragile and fearful Gwen Stacy, and clearly more intelligent as a bonus. The book was published when Carlie was still a minor character and not engaged in a romance with Peter, and Ms. Cooper was promoted. In retrospect, it's added to her character, so the jockeying is nowhere near as bad as, say, this:
tumblr_62a619c4bebdc5d3a555488a951ee0e8_770dcb96_640.jpg

I mean, Slott's dumb moments are bad regardless, and while I don't think the Carlie/Gwen story is damaging, I still find it stupid a comic that is talking about Spidey's "main" love interests sidelines Gwen by not even letting her have her own story.

On the other hand, it's incredibly ironic this happened with Gwen when Lee used Gwen to sideline MJ a few times lol.

But Gwen was ooc in that flashback compared to how she was in Ditko's era too but without it, I'd agree this would be random characterization. Different writers have improved Dan Slott's characters. The way Gwen's personality is treated isn’t so different from how JJ's portrayal in flashbacks has changed, too, as they've made him out to be a better man over time. People took aspects of what they liked from these characters handled by other writers and translated how they pictured them on the page—queue readership debates over the merits of their interpretations.

Again, she was a kid, while she could act like a high school princess brat since she was a kid, it doesn't have to be like that, because she's probably like 10 there and Gwen in her debut is around 18, that's a lot of time for someone to change, and going from teenager to adult can cause ridiculous changes.

It's not comparable with Gwen, on a mini that takes places only a few months before her debut, to be acting like someone else entirely.

I consider this mini to be mid as far as personality goes. I like Gwen's flaws and want to see them. I know they're playing me, but it's still sweet to see what she's willing to do for her father. This potentially gives more insight into why she responds so strongly when he later dies on Spidey's watch.

I mean, her father who she blatantly loved died, doesn't need a lot more explanations than that.

Now, Gwen imperiled herself as a teen to save her father's job, which means if Ms. Stacy had only let him retire as he'd chosen, he'd still be alive. That has exciting consequences for her character. It's not often that someone has an arc after her actual death, and I'd eat that up. I'd like it a damn sight more if writers stopped pitting fans of both women against each other.

I mean, if anything you can say he's dead because he didn't retire, since he decided to watch a fight between Spidey and Otto, then jumped to save a kid lol.

I don't think this appearance features an entirely different woman. Her flaws are minimized, but they still exist. Even if the writer isn't focusing on it, Gage writes her as a character who bad mouths competition when his only "blemish" seems to be his popularity. She uses her relationship with her father to illegally obtain case information. If Harry is under 18, she illegally gained access to corporate computers to run the illegal information she'd been provided illegally before being caught. After catching her, the rightful owner consented, but he "did not know" how she obtained that data.

This means that evidence of criminality could've been left within the machine Ms. Stacy used or recorded by company cameras. Potentially she's gifted an unrevealed villain leverage over George by threatening to have his kid and the idiots who provided that information arrested. Osborn was "friends" with Jameson at this time, and JJ would love to expose police corruption and take down a respectable captain. Wait for the girl to graduate, and the guy that dubbed exonerated Luke Cage a drug dealer in his articles would see no reason not to strike. So why wouldn't Osborn record that for prosperity? Gwen is both unaware and not fully considering the consequences of her choices before committing to them. Like a typical privileged teenager who's used to getting her way. Absolutely shades of Ditko Gwen.

That's a lot of thinking of consequences that quite clearly won't happen considering what we already know will happen.

Also it still has nothing to do with Ditko Gwen when she's lacking the most blatant of Ditko Gwen's traits.

Osborn is presumably only taking advantage of a cop's daughter's mission to eliminate rival gangsters serving as his obstacles without estranging himself from those he wants to keep since he's in his "conquer the underworld" phase. But she potentially damned several individuals beyond herself: awesome sh*t and new continuity any future writer can reference. Or take the approach where he planned to use the details against Captain Stacy, the information unexpectedly depreciated after George's death, then one of the people who helped the boss' kid gets promoted, and he proceeds to collect on an old investment. Blackmail plots are a classic. Nobody will use that but let a man dream.

A proactive character acts before circumstances become a source of conflict or crisis. A reactive character responds to past actions rather than anticipating the future. She was reactive in the past comics, and she's reactive here too.

Whether Gage realizes it or not, she's manipulative, casually engaging in felonies(like unauthorized disclosure) if it suits her, and drags unsuspecting people into it. The cops at the station who assisted her are responsible now too. Her actions are solely for her father, so it builds on prior character bonds. Gage or, more likely, some other writers who aren't afraid to fully address her less stellar markers in this story could work with this portrayal. All the narrative has to do is hold her accountable. Or it could demonstrate why she behaves differently when she encounters Peter in college if there's a later comic set in the past. So I don't see it as bad as others here.

Those fictional SCA members are truly living out their best lives for real. I wanted to go mad with power too.

Forensic podiatry has several wins to its name. If People encounter legal problems for distinctive footwear, a glider would have gotten John Q. Public dragged into a station. The arrest of Tik Tocker Chozen Terrell-Hannah is a recent case. Norman Osborn is not a man on the clapham omnibus. So, yeah, good luck, hypothetical cops with integrity. Even when everyone knows he's guilty, he gets to walk free. My opinion isn't that she could get a charge to stick. A man of his wealth could knowingly sell a glider to an insurgent IRL and, unless something significant happened on the inter/national level, all that would usually result is bad PR from Amnesty international and maybe a fine despite violating several laws. The thing is, a more experienced investigator who didn't have that friendship with Harry would have felt some suspicion towards him. Not necessarily that he's the green goblin, but that he's involved. And doesn't consider whether he might be a mutant or a mutate. She assumes GG must be young because that is the understanding of her lived experience. She's written as an intelligent teenager who disregards some obvious tells and chooses to trust the word of an adult she knows.

I think you're reading too much into those two issues, Norman just manipulated her so she doesn't suspect he's GG, that's it, and Gage is quite clearly not doing a proper investigation with any of the cops involved when George allows his own daughter to help him out.

It's a simple story trying to make Gwen look kinda badass, that's it lol.

I am so glad Gage didn't go with instant expert. I expect to be disappointed later. #4 and #5, do not look promising. Odds are I'll somehow manage to finagle my way into liking it.

I mean, unless Marvel releases a trade with all 5 issues (Which, I think Gage said on twitter they're all finished, so it's not impossible), we won't be seeing the last 3 issues.

[Tabs]

Exaggerated takes like that happen, even someone like MJ can be called a horrible love interest when her worst moments are tame compared to others in general.

I don't see Carlie being such an automatic sales drop, only if they did something stupid like calling the comic "Gwen Stacy" and have Carlie as the protagonist.



Wasn't a factor at all.



She was drunk, drunk people are morons and make far worse decisions casually, and she didn't go for it anyways.



Far more understandable considering she was a kid, and going from a kid to a teenager can cause ridiculously drastic changes.



I mean, Slott's dumb moments are bad regardless, and while I don't think the Carlie/Gwen story is damaging, I still find it stupid a comic that is talking about Spidey's "main" love interests sidelines Gwen by not even letting her have her own story.

On the other hand, it's incredibly ironic this happened with Gwen when Lee used Gwen to sideline MJ a few times lol.



Again, she was a kid, while she could act like a high school princess brat since she was a kid, it doesn't have to be like that, because she's probably like 10 there and Gwen in her debut is around 18, that's a lot of time for someone to change, and going from teenager to adult can cause ridiculous changes.

It's not comparable with Gwen, on a mini that takes places only a few months before her debut, to be acting like someone else entirely.



I mean, her father who she blatantly loved died, doesn't need a lot more explanations than that.



I mean, if anything you can say he's dead because he didn't retire, since he decided to watch a fight between Spidey and Otto, then jumped to save a kid lol.



That's a lot of thinking of consequences that quite clearly won't happen considering what we already know will happen.

Also it still has nothing to do with Ditko Gwen when she's lacking the most blatant of Ditko Gwen's traits.



I think you're reading too much into those two issues, Norman just manipulated her so she doesn't suspect he's GG, that's it, and Gage is quite clearly not doing a proper investigation with any of the cops involved when George allows his own daughter to help him out.

It's a simple story trying to make Gwen look kinda badass, that's it lol.



I mean, unless Marvel releases a trade with all 5 issues (Which, I think Gage said on twitter they're all finished, so it's not impossible), we won't be seeing the last 3 issues.

It's still an extreme reaction that gets responses from fans, especially considering how few panels it takes up. Why, Dan, why?

True that, then Conway did his best to ensure Gwen, his beloathed "nonentity", never sidelined MJ again. Marvel proceeds to try it with someone new every time they can.

My toxic trait is that I always overthink things. Double that if I'm annoyed. Works off them bad vibes. Means I won't care again until I shoot off at the mouth and then realize I have a ton of headcanons. Thank heaven it's Gage writing this thing and not me lol.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

The problem is how half assed this attempt at modernization is, a proper modernization would pick up what was there and adapt to modern times, and about the closest thing to modernizing Gwen they'd done is her inconsistent personality, so now she gets a more "modern" female character personality (Being so proactive and wanting to be part of the action), which has very little to do with how she acted back then, because the only scene that actually made me think she was more like her Ditko-era version was when she smushed a cupcake into some jock's face, which is a bitchy thing to do, and Ditko Gwen was a bitch, even then that can be considered going slightly too far

Uh... this being the same jock who was sexually harassing, if not sexually assaulting (by today's standards) her? Cupcake in the face was the least he deserved.

[Tabs]

Uh... this being the same jock who was sexually harassing, if not sexually assaulting (by today's standards) her? Cupcake in the face was the least he deserved.

Nameless sportsman ain't backing down and self defense allows for a proportional response. If some punk gets fresh, let him choke on agave syrup.

[juan678]

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