Why is Batman the only major hero whose mental health is questioned so much?

[The True Detective]

It comes up as a plot point several times that Batman's "assistance" off the books, is problematic for legal reasons due to it sometimes making evidence inadmissible in court due to there being no way for a judge to verify the evidence is legit. Why? due to lack of proper evidence collection, and of course how Batman can't be called to court. And yeah, at least one time a villain got acquitted due to lack of admissible evidence. And a lot of this was due to Batman being a loner vigilant who didn't talk to the cops as often as he should.

He's a vigilante period, he wouldn't be able to testify in court even if he was best friends with every cop in town and talked to them 24/7. I don't fully understand what your point is here. You also ignored my point of how they trust him enough to install the Batsignal to contact him and Harvey Bullock who was very anti-Batman early on grew to trust and begrudgingly respect him. If Jim Gordon and even Bullock trust Batman that shows you a lot of other officers do too.

[Ascended]

Not reading the full thread so apologies if I'm just repeating what someone already said.....

The question of sanity and mental health, by rights, should be raised for every superhero. You gotta be at least a little off your rocker to dress up in spandex and punch criminals in the face. If nothing else, it takes a certain degree of arrogance to presume you and your morality are so superior to everyone else's that you're right to take matters into your own hands and force your views on everyone else.

But I think Bruce gets the bulk of these comments/complaints for the same reason Superman is always the one who gets the "over powered" label; Bruce is the biggest fish in this particular sea.

His stories have delved into the psychology of the cast/rogues gallery more than most superheroes, and even if guys like Hulk have done it too, and guys like Moon Knight are legitimately crazy (and crazier than Bruce has ever been written), the fact remains that Batman is the biggest name in this particular ring, so he's the one who catches the majority of these comments. Just like with Clark; there's plenty of characters who have just as much, if not more, raw power (and fewer weaknesses), but Superman is the most popular/well known character among the heavy hitters so he's the target for all the "OP" complaints. Bruce is the most well known character who has dealt extensively with the psychological end of superheroics, so he's the target, even when lesser known heroes deal with it more, or more overtly.

Bottom line, Bruce is the character we always gravitate to in this sort of discussion because DC has spent thirty-odd years writing stories about it, and Batman is the most well known name out of all the characters who deal with similar topics and themes.

[Yohei72]

'Cuz mofo is cray cray.

[Caivu]

The question of sanity and mental health, by rights, should be raised for every superhero. You gotta be at least a little off your rocker to dress up in spandex and punch criminals in the face. If nothing else, it takes a certain degree of arrogance to presume you and your morality are so superior to everyone else's that you're right to take matters into your own hands and force your views on everyone else.

Not really in the DCU. Vigilantism in the DCU is a perfectly valid and often successful occupation that has done a countless and inarguable amount of good. How many times has Earth alone been saved? How many individual heroes have saved 7-digit populations by themselves? Within that world, it's nowhere near being something only mentally unstable people would consider, because it's not an ineffectual pursuit. That's like describing firefighters as "just dressing up in helmets and weird baggy suits;" technically true, but snarky and misleading.

Nor is it arrogant, as it's mostly involved with stopping crime and very rarely has anything to do with forcing views on anyone (unless "don't do crime" falls under that).

[marhawkman]

He's a vigilante period, he wouldn't be able to testify in court even if he was best friends with every cop in town and talked to them 24/7. I don't fully understand what your point is here. You also ignored my point of how they trust him enough to install the Batsignal to contact him and Harvey Bullock who was very anti-Batman early on grew to trust and begrudgingly respect him. If Jim Gordon and even Bullock trust Batman that shows you a lot of other officers do too.

The point is that, due to legal standards for evidence collection, Batman contaminated every crime scene he was at. Sometimes this was easily avoidable.

[Vic Vega]

I think that maybe there's something in Bruce's particular reasoning for the things he does that other non powered super also do that MAY account for the idea that he in particular is unhinged.

He didn't just decide to dress up as a Bat, one had to fly thru his window which he then took as an omen.

He doesn't just wear a costume because he needs a disguise but because he wants to scare the bad guys. Now if the Cops could ID Bats, they would arrest him. In the Golden Age heroes even Superman, started out running from the Police because of that. So the "needing a disguise" bit is reasonable....from the view of a Vigilante anyway.

It's the "wanting to scare bad guys" part that might have people wondering.

And then...well...there is no way to make training 3 sidekicks and making them all dress and look identical to each other look good...

[Wat]

Not to mention many of the other superheros also have questioned Bruce's sanity from time to time. In fact in one JL adventure Superman of all people(of course he was under mental influence) made a snide remark that Bruce was an expert on deranged minds because he had to deal with himself on daily basis and then to add injury to insult, just trashes him with a single finger flick.

[Jackalope89]

I think that maybe there's something in Bruce's particular reasoning for the things he does that other non powered super also do that MAY account for the idea that he in particular is unhinged.

He didn't just decide to dress up as a Bat, one had to fly thru his window which he then took as an omen.

He doesn't just wear a costume because he needs a disguise but because he wants to scare the bad guys. Now if the Cops could ID Bats, they would arrest him. In the Golden Age heroes even Superman, started out running from the Police because of that. So the "needing a disguise" bit is reasonable....from the view of a Vigilante anyway.

It's the "wanting to scare bad guys" part that might have people wondering.

And then...well...there is no way to make training 3 sidekicks and making them all dress and look identical to each other look good...

How about making plans that could easily kill people he calls "friends", and never bothered to even tell them he was making them? And felt no guilt about any part of it. There's also victim blaming Jason after he died. He's also tried to bully others to doing things his way (Wally being one of the few to stand up to him for it).

Yeah, even in the fictional superhero world, those are some concerning actions, to say the least.

[bat39]

Screw them over? Huh? He's a vigilante technically he's a criminal, if he fraternizes too much and too openly with the GCPD it shows the public they're in cahoots with a criminal. Besides that using BTAS as an example again he IS trusted by most of the police, even Bullock who grew to respect him. They wouldn't have a signal to contact him if they didn't trust him. Dick was a grownass man, sidekick or not if you think it makes Batman untrustworthy to not talk to the cops, which he did often, then they'd think the same of Robin.

I think everyone is missing the main point of the thread, The Batman is what made OP create it in the 1st place so I'm not sure why y'all are bringing up stuff from the comics. Battinson has no history of scheming to take down allies, isn't shown or said to be abusive to friends, police or anyone else in trailers or interviews.

Going solely off what we've seen and have heard about the movie 99% of the stuff "Batjerk" has done in the comics does not apply to him. Despite that I just know they'll be a scene where Bruce dressing like a bat is commented on painting him as crazy but Selina wearing a catlike outfit will be treated as normal.

Just want to clarify that this thread wasn't only about Pattison's Batman in the upcoming film - it was about the perception of the character in general, across media. And I'm talking about both the in-universe characterization of Bruce/Batman as being unstable and the real-world perception too that the character is mentally disturbed.

Yes, Reeves' film really seems to be leaning heavily into Batman's poor mental health, perhaps more explicitly than any other adaptation so far (though we'll have to wait a little less than a week to know for sure!) Certainly, a lot of the commentary around the film has fed into the larger perception that surrounds the character's supposed mental instability. It may even be a case where real-world perceptions have influenced the creators (in this case Reeves and his collaborators, and Pattison himself) and have led to those perceptions becoming reality in this particular adaptation. But again, that remains to be seen.

You're certainly right that so far there hasn't been much (or really any) discussion about Selina Kyle's mental health in this film while there's been plenty of discussion about Bruce Wayne's. The trailers and the marketing seems to be showing her as the more stable of the two...it'll be interesting to see if that is indeed the case.

Frankly, I'll have no problem if Battison is indeed somewhat mentally disturbed. It's a valid interpretation of the character. What I am curious about is why it's a valid interpretation for Batman specifically and not for most other heroes (including characters from his own mythos) who have a lot in common with Batman.

I think that maybe there's something in Bruce's particular reasoning for the things he does that other non powered super also do that MAY account for the idea that he in particular is unhinged.

He didn't just decide to dress up as a Bat, one had to fly thru his window which he then took as an omen.

He doesn't just wear a costume because he needs a disguise but because he wants to scare the bad guys. Now if the Cops could ID Bats, they would arrest him. In the Golden Age heroes even Superman, started out running from the Police because of that. So the "needing a disguise" bit is reasonable....from the view of a Vigilante anyway.

It's the "wanting to scare bad guys" part that might have people wondering.

And then...well...there is no way to make training 3 sidekicks and making them all dress and look identical to each other look good...

Green Arrow literally dresses up as Robin Hood (there's at least one origin-story where his first suit was a modified Robin Hood costume). This was after an intensely traumatic few weeks/months that he spent cut off from civilization. Barry Allen, in his original Silver Age origin, literally took the identity of a comic-book character once he happened to develop identical powers. Seeing a bat crash through your window and taking inspiration from that isn't necessarily any crazier. Especially when you take into account the more contemporary expansions of the origin, starting from DKR, which reveal that Bruce had a childhood fixation/phobia with bats after falling into the cave as a child. It wasn't just about an ''omen'' - it was him weaponizing his childhood fear for tactical advantage

Wanting to terrify criminals doesn't make Bruce insane. Psychological warfare is an accepted tactic in many real-world military and intelligence services. Bruce, in some versions, trained under such people, and Alfred himself was one.

How about making plans that could easily kill people he calls "friends", and never bothered to even tell them he was making them? And felt no guilt about any part of it. There's also victim blaming Jason after he died. He's also tried to bully others to doing things his way (Wally being one of the few to stand up to him for it).

Yeah, even in the fictional superhero world, those are some concerning actions, to say the least.

Plenty of powerful countries across the globe have secret contingency plans to strike not only their known adversaries, but even allies. It's a well-known fact now that the US intelligence community spies on European allies (and probably vice versa as well for all we know). Now you may say that all these political and military leaders are corrupt, power-hungry or immoral...but few accuse them of being insane. Bruce's decision to create those protocols against the Justice League was actually a pretty rational decision. Whether it was moral for him to betray his allies in this manner or not is debateable, but there wasn't anything irrational about wanting contingencies against the most powerful individuals on the planet who have a pretty good chance of having their bodies stolen or being mind-controlled (or cloned), even if they never actually go rogue themselves.

Funnily enough, I think the ''Batman is mentally disturbed'' school of thought wasn't so prominent back in the early 2000's. At the end of the Tower of Babel story-arc, when the League is deliberating on whether or not to expel Batman, their reasons for doing so revolve around a sense of personal betrayal and mistrust. No one accuses Batman of being unstable. A few issues later he reveals his identity to them as a gesture of trust and good faith and they welcome him back into the fold.

[Wat]

However in a later storyline Bruce did suffer a mental breakdown after being separated from Batman in the id storyline which ironically does denote that Bruce may turn mentally unstable without having the outlet of being Batman for venting his anger on criminals.

[The True Detective]

How about making plans that could easily kill people he calls "friends", and never bothered to even tell them he was making them? And felt no guilt about any part of it. There's also victim blaming Jason after he died. He's also tried to bully others to doing things his way (Wally being one of the few to stand up to him for it).

Yeah, even in the fictional superhero world, those are some concerning actions, to say the least.

How is keeping contingency plans for the most powerful beings on the planet crazy? If anything he'd be insane not to seeing as telepathic and magical beings exist who have or could easily take control of any JL member and force them to go on a killing spree. Like bat39 said real world militaries secretly spy on their allies and have secret plans to take them down should they ever have to. Do you think that's wrong?

I've also seen the argument that Bruce devoting his entire life to being Batman is sign of instability but there are real world examples of people being obsessed with their work and not being thought of as crazy. Athletes like Michael Jordan were literally obsessed with their sport and didn't care about anything else during their playing days.

Former NFL tight end Shannon Sharpe admitted that during his 13 year career he put playing football before EVERYTHING. Spending time with his kids, wife, friends, family, didn't matter he'd sacrifice time with them to practice, workout, study film, anything he could do in his free time to become a better football player and he said he wouldn't change a thing if given a 2nd chance. I've yet to hear anyone say his obsessive focus on his career makes him insane. Bruce literally saves lives, a much more important goal than playing a sport so it's understandable if he has tunnel vision with it.

[bat39]

However in a later storyline Bruce did suffer a mental breakdown after being separated from Batman in the id storyline which ironically does denote that Bruce may turn mentally unstable without having the outlet of being Batman for venting his anger on criminals.

Actually, that storyline proves that Bruce/Batman are not unique in that regard, since all the Justice League members become unstable when they are 'split' between their identities.

Superman becomes a lot more alien and isolated from any sense of humanity, Flash too loses his humanity and becomes more akin to a living thunderbolt, John Jones feels 'blind' without his martian senses and telepathy etc.

In fact, the Bruce and Batman split shows us why Bruce as Batman isn't unstable or insane. With Batman, Bruce has a positive outlet for his desire for justice. And Bruce Wayne's humanity is what makes Batman a noble crusader for justice and not a cold, emotionless automaton. The split demonstrates that being Batman is a positive for Bruce's mental and emotional health, and that a man like Bruce being behind the cowl is what makes Batman a true hero.

[Agent Z]

Excellent post, DC wants to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to mental illness. They can't on one hand write Bruce as being crazy but treat his sidekicks and cohorts as 100% normal at the same time. He's crazy for fighting crime in a costume? You have to treat EVERY other hero who does like this too especially other Batfamily members. The crazy things the other Batfamily members do are seen almost as cute little quirks and not signs of deeper mental issues.

Well, if it means anything:

Jason has been treated as deeply unwell by Morrison at least and a few other writers. Cass, Jean-Paul and Damian are depicted as having been severely traumatized by their upbringing. Selina's psychosis was briefly focused on pre-crisis and she is depicted as being unwell in Burton's Batman sequel.

It's like how on Batman Beyond Bruce was looked at as crazy for being Batman for so long, "kids stuff" as Barbara put it as if being a vigilante is a childish and unhealthy way to handle things that a normal person should eventually walk away from. Clark was still Superman long after Bruce retired, he seemingly couldn't easily walk away from life as a hero any easier than Bruce could.

Superman was never thought of as weird for still wanting to fight crime at his age, I suppose him having powers made it more normal but with the Batman Beyond suit Bruce is basically superhuman anyway so I don't see how age would factor into it too much.

Even with the Beyond suit, Bruce's age was clearly taking a toll on his body to the point he had to resort to drawing a gun on an enemy, something that traumatized him so much that he retired.

I recall the "kid's stuff" line being said by Tim Drake not Barbara. Either way, I think the implication is that they were letting the bitter circumstances of their tenures ending color their views.

[Agent Z]

Other dark and gritty heroes don't get questioned either, is Daredevil looked at as crazy for dressing in a devil costume? Arrow was a gritty take on GA and started of in a real world setting but I don't remember him being thought of as crazy because he was in a Robin Hood get up, same with the Batfamily members on Titans. They're not as popular as Batman but they aren't obscure D-listers either. Daredevil was one of the most watched shows on Netflix.

Other than Batman Returns Selina isn't usually portrayed as crazy for her catsuit, we never see characters react in stunned disbelief to seeing or hearing about a cat burglar in a cat costume. In the Nolan trilogy Batman was seen as a freak, no one ever commented on Selina's equally bizarre fashion sense. As if everyone just casually goes about their day in leather catsuits. When people 1st see Batman their reaction is usually a "is this for real, a man dressed like a bat?"

Yes they do. Daredevil's mental state has been a huge subject of focus since Miller, Moon Knight is frequently referred to as a "crazier version of Batman", the Hulk's DiD is a subject of numerous stories with Al Ewing's Immortal Hulk being a recent example and the Punisher's mental state is brought up often. Maybe it comes up with Batman most often, but he is far from the only one.

[Agent Z]

Then what is it?

Childhood trauma? Loss of family? Propensity for violence? Vigilantism?

Because these apply to many other characters as well, as we've discussed throughout this thread. Characters who aren't considered 'freaks' or 'mentally unstable'...

And as I've pointed out before, it isn't just Batman who gets this label.

That argument doesn't work because not every iteration of Batman has other heroes existing in his world. OP specifically used the upcoming The Batman movie as an example. There aren't any other superheroes as far as we know so that version has no pre-established history of plotting against his allies. From trailers he doesn't look abusive towards Aflred or anyone else yet is still treated as a psycho in a costume.

In Batman: The Animated Series before the other JL members showed up and when he was much nicer there was a debate on whether he was just as crazy as the villains he took to Arkham. He didn't mistreat Robin or Batgirl at that time, wasn't super paranoid or anything but the other characters still thought he should be locked up in Arkham all because he was a freak to them. Simply for wearing a bat costume.

Anyway I don't see how you treat someone is a good barometer to sanity, I don't care if someone is the nicest person in the world if I see them on a park bench getting into a heated argument with an inanimate object I'm calling the men in white coats on them. They could be Mother Theresa or Ghandi it wouldn't make a difference. Being kind doesn't mean you can't suffer from mental health issues.

If there are no other superheroes in the setting, then it isn't too surprising that people would see him as a disturbed person. Because no one else - other than the villains - acts like this.