Does New Krypton take place before or after Final Crisis?

[daredevil1]

This would include the 2008 "Brainiac" story, which led directly into New Krypton with Pa Kent's funeral. Both of these stories came out at exactly the same time, and unlike Batman, don't seem to tie in to each other at all... so which comes first or when in the chronology? The problem is we have a bit of a contradiction or paradox in that Bruce Wayne shows up at Jonathan's funeral when he already perished in Final Crisis... and yet Pa shows up in one of the FC tie-ins.

I guess if you really, really want to force it you could say that it was Dick at the funeral from afar, or that Crisis takes place in the week between when Pa dies and they bury him, but there doesn't really seem to be a satisfactory answer other than "they didn't think about it." It also doesn't help that Superman takes off for New Krypton right after that story, and the Daily Planet building is destroyed in FC. If I had to pick I guess I would say New Krypton takes place after since Superman becomes so preoccupied with Kandor's enlargement to the exclusion of all else, and we overlook Bruce's one panel cameo at the funeral, but there was just no level of coordination in the way that Morrison tied Batman RIP into the crossover so seamlessly even if that didn't please anyone.

[Doctor Know]

New Krypton happens after Final Crisis. How do we know this? Blackest Night. New Krypton is still in the sky and is briefly attacked by Black Lanterns. At the same time Dick, Tim and Damian are defending Gotham from Black Lantern zombies. Black Hand is carrying Bruce's skull around. You will remember.


It doesn't really matter though, does it?

Final Crisis struggled and stands as it's own thing. After Didio and TPTB thought they could replicate 52's success and "do it right" with their Countdown to Final Crisis series. Countdown was a disaster and ended up getting ignored. Since the New Gods and Darkseid didn't really matter to any particular character's line, outside of Batman's due to Morrison writing Batman RIP and the Return of Bruce Wayne. Final Crisis could've happened anytime after 52, and before Flashpoint.


New Krypton was Johns' baby that he abandoned midway through writing. He needed to put all of his energy into Blackest Night and Brightest Day. New Krypton meandered about and got itself cancelled with no real fanfare. The only appearances it made outside of Superman's books were JL Cry For Justice (as a passing reference) and in the Superman tie-ins to Blackest Night. Neither of which really set the world on fire and are ignored by most.


Since Final Crisis only got a follow-up in Morrison's Multiversity, and wasn't mentioned at all during the New 52 New Gods stories. Final Crisis is really it's own island.

[exile001]

After Didio and TPTB thought they could replicate 52's success and "do it right" with their Countdown to Final Crisis series. Countdown was a disaster and ended up getting ignored.

This will never not be funny to me. Didio apparently proclaiming that Countdown was "52 done right," yet 52 is still seen as a great comic today whereas Countdown is one of the most woeful piles of crap DC has ever published.

[daredevil1]

New Krypton happens after Final Crisis. How do we know this? Blackest Night. New Krypton is still in the sky and is briefly attacked by Black Lanterns. At the same time Dick, Tim and Damian are defending Gotham from Black Lantern zombies. Black Hand is carrying Bruce's skull around. You will remember.


It doesn't really matter though, does it?

I tend to agree, but if I may be somewhat dense, how does Blackest Night happening for sure after New Krypton (and both of them obviously in real year 2009) prove that Final Crisis happens before NK?

Doesn't really "matter," I guess, it's just fun to know where to keep things on the bookshelf or comic box in terms of a larger chronology. Lord knows we completely can give up on that after Rebirth...

[Doctor Know]

I tend to agree, but if I may be somewhat dense, how does Blackest Night happening for sure after New Krypton (and both of them obviously in real year 2009) prove that Final Crisis happens before NK?

Doesn't really "matter," I guess, it's just fun to know where to keep things on the bookshelf or comic box in terms of a larger chronology. Lord knows we completely can give up on that after Rebirth...

They were likely happening simultaneously. New Krypton starts with 2008's Brainiac. I checked the New Krypton volumes and World of New Krypton volumes. Batman/Bruce is absent. He wasn't in any of the engagements with the Kryptonians on Earth. World of New Krypton (with the planet on the other side of the sun), is happening the same time as Blackest Night. That's where we see Dick/Batman, Damian/Robin, and Tim/Red Robin fighting to defend Gotham. Bruce was dead for several months, I recall. So, he may have been dead before New Krypton started in earnest. Dying after Brainiac 2008, but before Sam Lane and Luthor started their plans against the city of Kandor.


Brainiac 2008 is largely a stand alone story at this point. The one panel cameo of Bruce at Pa Kent's funeral is the only continuity rub that complicates things.

[daredevil1]

Of mild interest, it seems all of us are on the same page on this one a la Final Crisis coming first. From https://collectededitions.blogspot.c...eline-tpb.html

"Superman: New Krypton poses a minor continuity problem. Based on events in the (uncollected) DC Universe: Last Will and Testament, the final chapter of Superman: Brainiac takes place after Final Crisis, and Superman: New Krypton Volume 1 immediately follows Superman: Brainiac. Batman's cameo in New Krypton, however, would place this trade before Final Crisis. This cannot be resolved, and later volumes of New Krypton will reflect Final Crisis, so we place this trade here [after Final Crisis]. The second collection of New Krypton follows immediately after the first and contains a "Faces of Evil" cover. Superman: The Coming of Atlas takes place indeterminately before or after Final Crisis, but it's part of the new post-Final Crisis Superman team, so we include it here."

I'm curious if anyone knows how New Krypton reflects Final Crisis? That would clinch it either way. To be honest, I hate when creators insert random cameos in other books without thinking it through... personally, I don't think Bruce Wayne would attend Pa Kent's funeral. It would raise too many red flags on how they knew each other (kind of like how this exact scenario outs Nite Owl in Watchmen), and his style is more to console Clark later in private. Thematically, it pushes Supes into more of a corner if he loses Bruce and then Pa in quick succession. I also cannot see any point at which Clark doesn't perseverate on New Krypton as his absolute highest priority, and there's simply no break in the narrative once "Brainiac" starts to randomly have Final Crisis/mourn Bruce. It even kind of feels like the Daily Planet is reopening after being destroyed when Steve Lombard and Cat come aboard in "Brainiac" chapter one. Certainly there's no time for Final Crisis in between NK and World of NK. I still say it's Dick with Alfred at the funeral, that's much more his style...

[Clark_Kent]

I would have to go back & read it again, but I seem to recall that I put Final Crisis after the Kryptonians left Earth but before Superman leaves Earth. There's no time period stated after NK is formed in orbit, so I think there was time for FC in there. Plus, FC has Superman making a wish at the end, which reset a lot of the stuff that happened for his happy ending. I think you can fudge things how you like to an extent.

I think I had it Brainiac > Kandor enlarged > Kandor goes to space, forms New Krypton > Final Crisis > World of New Krypton/Blackest Night > War of the Supermen. But I'd definitely have to re-read to know for sure. If you don't like splitting up stories like that, then I'd just go FC > Brainiac/NK and just ignore the one panel with Bruce Wayne at the funeral.

[daredevil1]

I would have to go back & read it again, but I seem to recall that I put Final Crisis after the Kryptonians left Earth but before Superman leaves Earth. There's no time period stated after NK is formed in orbit, so I think there was time for FC in there. Plus, FC has Superman making a wish at the end, which reset a lot of the stuff that happened for his happy ending. I think you can fudge things how you like to an extent.

I think I had it Brainiac > Kandor enlarged > Kandor goes to space, forms New Krypton > Final Crisis > World of New Krypton/Blackest Night > War of the Supermen. But I'd definitely have to re-read to know for sure. If you don't like splitting up stories like that, then I'd just go FC > Brainiac/NK and just ignore the one panel with Bruce Wayne at the funeral.

Let us know if you do ever go back and read it, I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I didn't really see too much of a break in between the crossover/Faces of Evil/World of NK, but it's just a fun puzzle with no right or wrong answer. Yeah, I only consider it happening before inasmuch as Clark's state of mind when Final Crisis starts being... less cluttered or complicated? I think if Pa had just died and he was still obsessing over New Krypton, we'd see a very different Superman in there about to slit his wrists if he had lost Pa/Bruce/J'onn and then Lois in a matter of weeks. The Clark seen at the start of "Brainiac" seems like he's found his lust for life again after almost losing Lois. But I think a lot of that is chalked up to how single-minded the writers made him once New Krypton started, so I don't know if any of this can makes sense for character arcs.

[Timothy Hunter]

jonathan_kent_funeral_006.jpg

Here is the image in question of "Bruce Wayne" at Pa Kent's funeral. Now there is no doubt in my mind that Johns and Frank intended this shadowy figure to be Bruce Wayne, however, you can easily explain away that it's Dick and not Bruce.

What I interpret this panel to be inferring is Clark finding a newfound empathy for Bruce's anguish caused by the death of his parents, due to the passing away of one of his own. If you replace Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson, the central idea of the scene still resonates. Both Dick and Clark have lost an adoptive father.

[Clark_Kent]

Let us know if you do ever go back and read it, I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I didn't really see too much of a break in between the crossover/Faces of Evil/World of NK, but it's just a fun puzzle with no right or wrong answer. Yeah, I only consider it happening before inasmuch as Clark's state of mind when Final Crisis starts being... less cluttered or complicated? I think if Pa had just died and he was still obsessing over New Krypton, we'd see a very different Superman in there about to slit his wrists if he had lost Pa/Bruce/J'onn and then Lois in a matter of weeks. The Clark seen at the start of "Brainiac" seems like he's found his lust for life again after almost losing Lois. But I think a lot of that is chalked up to how single-minded the writers made him once New Krypton started, so I don't know if any of this can makes sense for character arcs.

I didn't do a full re-read, but I just went back through some issues on DC Universe Infinite. On my shelf I had placed Final Crisis after Action Comics #873 (Lex Luthor Faces of Evil issue), which if I recall was the final issue of the 'New Krypton vol 2' tpb. Glancing at it now, I see that a piece that doesn't quite fit is Kara...Supergirl is present in Final Crisis, but as of the end of Action 873 she is on New Krypton and her mother hasn't sent her to Earth yet. So that is a tiny continuity issue.

Ultimately, in regards to Final Crisis, the event revolves around everything falling into Darkseid, including time. Time literally had no meaning during most of the event due to all of reality falling apart, so you can almost place it anywhere you like as long as it comes between the end of Batman RIP & the beginning of Batman & Robin. Did Final Crisis occur over the course of weeks? Years? What about minutes? With time not mattering and Superman making a miracle wish to resolve it, Final Crisis might as well take place between the literal panels of almost any comic you wish. It's one of the reasons I like it so much.

So yeah, you are absolutely right - no wrong answers here (within reason). It's a fun period to try and map out. As for the New Krypton saga proper, I'd say it has a bit of a bad rap these days. Mind you, it's NOT great, and the ending is NOT great. But I think it reads better in hindsight than it did while it was coming out as single issues. It does a reasonable job reminding everyone why Superman is great and why it's not just his powers that make him so. I think NK is a wonderful plan, a flawed execution, but not as bad as history remembers it.

Let's not forget, they followed this up with Grounded....shudder.

[daredevil1]

jonathan_kent_funeral_006.jpg

Here is the image in question of "Bruce Wayne" at Pa Kent's funeral. Now there is no doubt in my mind that Johns and Frank intended this shadowy figure to be Bruce Wayne, however, you can easily explain away that it's Dick and not Bruce.

What I interpret this panel to be inferring is Clark finding a newfound empathy for Bruce's anguish caused by the death of his parents, due to the passing away of one of his own. If you replace Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson, the central idea of the scene still resonates. Both Dick and Clark have lost an adoptive father.

Yeah, I interpret that as Dick, myself. I would bet that Didio asked them to make it ambiguous for that reason. Either way you're stuck with this, or Pa being alive when he should be dead in the DC Universe Last Will and Testament tie-in, which I like far more than NK and consider a Final Crisis tie-in.

I didn't do a full re-read, but I just went back through some issues on DC Universe Infinite. On my shelf I had placed Final Crisis after Action Comics #873 (Lex Luthor Faces of Evil issue), which if I recall was the final issue of the 'New Krypton vol 2' tpb. Glancing at it now, I see that a piece that doesn't quite fit is Kara...Supergirl is present in Final Crisis, but as of the end of Action 873 she is on New Krypton and her mother hasn't sent her to Earth yet. So that is a tiny continuity issue.

Ultimately, in regards to Final Crisis, the event revolves around everything falling into Darkseid, including time. Time literally had no meaning during most of the event due to all of reality falling apart, so you can almost place it anywhere you like as long as it comes between the end of Batman RIP & the beginning of Batman & Robin. Did Final Crisis occur over the course of weeks? Years? What about minutes? With time not mattering and Superman making a miracle wish to resolve it, Final Crisis might as well take place between the literal panels of almost any comic you wish. It's one of the reasons I like it so much.

So yeah, you are absolutely right - no wrong answers here (within reason). It's a fun period to try and map out. As for the New Krypton saga proper, I'd say it has a bit of a bad rap these days. Mind you, it's NOT great, and the ending is NOT great. But I think it reads better in hindsight than it did while it was coming out as single issues. It does a reasonable job reminding everyone why Superman is great and why it's not just his powers that make him so. I think NK is a wonderful plan, a flawed execution, but not as bad as history remembers it.

Let's not forget, they followed this up with Grounded....shudder.

What I recall about War of the Supermen was a couple of things I wish had gone differently- mainly that after a year of build-up Clark doesn't get reunited with Chris again before he vanishes into oblivion (why? just why?); Zod preemptively attacking the Earth minutes before Sam Lane bombs them, which would've given him sufficient motivation and not been such a coincidence; and the whole thing happening too quickly. I was never wild about Lane being this genocidal madman- if he was such a modern day Hitler, surely Lois wouldn't be as stable as she is and it makes the supporting characters too incidentally intertwined to Superman, like when every villain in the Spider-Man movies knew Peter. And I thought it was a missed opportunity to have Kara not go against Clark on Zod's side, since she was already a teenager on Krypton and had much more affiliation with it. Her mother is evil but she's a complete do-gooder despite this; like Lois, it's too much of a stretch.

As for Grounded, I think I said this in another thread but JMS really, really seems to like the idea of a cross-country walk/road trip- he's done this same plot FOUR times, including here, Midnight Nation and the new book he wrote. But he's unable to convey why we the reader should care, beyond it's some personal meaningful fixation of his. He should've stayed with it but he stuck us with his year-long story and then took his toys and went home early, which is a pattern he had on almost every comic he wrote until fans gave up on him. I'm not sure there's any way you can make that plot work for a YEAR, but by nature it's so low stakes and boring. I would've preferred they went out with a bang before Flashpoint; tell the very best Post-crisis Superman story of all that wrapped up all the plot threads for the continuity. Conduit, Scorn, Strange Visior, Dominus, Cat Grant's final revenge against Toyman, Perry White's family situation settled, Luthor's final downfall and resolution of Contessa/his daughter/Kelly and Happersen, Lana Lang's ultimate choice, etc etc. If it were me I would've even just done something silly like give Bibbo and Allie the copygirl happy endings.

[Timothy Hunter]

Yeah, I interpret that as Dick, myself. I would bet that Didio asked them to make it ambiguous for that reason. Either way you're stuck with this, or Pa being alive when he should be dead in the DC Universe Last Will and Testament tie-in, which I like far more than NK and consider a Final Crisis tie-in.

Although the argument can be said that none of the DC characters aside from Batman and maybe Green Lantern had a satisfying ending before the New Fifty Two.



What I recall about War of the Supermen was a couple of things I wish had gone differently- mainly that after a year of build-up Clark doesn't get reunited with Chris again before he vanishes into oblivion (why? just why?); Zod preemptively attacking the Earth minutes before Sam Lane bombs them, which would've given him sufficient motivation and not been such a coincidence; and the whole thing happening too quickly. I was never wild about Lane being this genocidal madman- if he was such a modern day Hitler, surely Lois wouldn't be as stable as she is and it makes the supporting characters too incidentally intertwined to Superman, like when every villain in the Spider-Man movies knew Peter. And I thought it was a missed opportunity to have Kara not go against Clark on Zod's side, since she was already a teenager on Krypton and had much more affiliation with it. Her mother is evil but she's a complete do-gooder despite this; like Lois, it's too much of a stretch.

As for Grounded, I think I said this in another thread but JMS really, really seems to like the idea of a cross-country walk/road trip- he's done this same plot FOUR times, including here, Midnight Nation and the new book he wrote. But he's unable to convey why we the reader should care, beyond it's some personal meaningful fixation of his. He should've stayed with it but he stuck us with his year-long story and then took his toys and went home early, which is a pattern he had on almost every comic he wrote until fans gave up on him. I'm not sure there's any way you can make that plot work for a YEAR, but by nature it's so low stakes and boring. I would've preferred they went out with a bang before Flashpoint; tell the very best Post-crisis Superman story of all that wrapped up all the plot threads for the continuity. Conduit, Scorn, Strange Visior, Dominus, Cat Grant's final revenge against Toyman, Perry White's family situation settled, Luthor's final downfall and resolution of Contessa/his daughter/Kelly and Happersen, Lana Lang's ultimate choice, etc etc. If it were me I would've even just done something silly like give Bibbo and Allie the copygirl happy endings.

You're right on the money. Honestly if DC had done what you suggested before Flashpoint it would've been a better Superman swansong than Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow.

[manofsteel1979]

You're right on the money. Honestly if DC had done what you suggested before Flashpoint it would've been a better Superman swansong than Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow.

The problem is they didn't have that much lead time because DC didn't know Flashpoint was going to lead to a hard reboot. That was an eleventh hour decision.

I personally wish they were at least given a year lead in so something like that could be done. They could have reassembled the classic post crisis team (Jurgens/Ordway/Simonson and Stern with Mike Carlin overseeing things) to write the Swan song for that continuity.