X Deaths of Wolverine #3 - Review/SPOILER Thread

[LordUltimus]

She's not an evil person, she's a scientist.

...

Being a scientist does not preclude you from being evil

She is literally trying to commit genocide.

[dragon1440]

She's not an evil person, she's a scientist. And also an antagonist because the X-Men are the protagonist and her current plans go against theirs.

She was presented with an alternative thesis and she tried it for multiple lives and thousand of years.

But Destiny gave her an expiration date of 10 to 11 lives, which she is now at. And then Mystique and Destiny decided that instead of talking to her about what is going on it was better to lop off her arm, attempt to depower her and then murder her. And that is on top of someone in Krakoa giving her cancer.

So with Krakoa being the culimination of all of those plans, leaving her with nothing left. And her at the end of her potential lives she's reached the end of her scientific method and wants to see what a world is like without mutants. A techno-wolverine coming back (and from her POV) attempting to murder her has also solidified that she should be going down this path and its successful.

But we'll see if that is the actual conclusion she reached in the next issue imagine. She may have changed her mind as humanity once again was about to be devoured by the Dominion.

You know what would be a great twist? Instead of Krakoa or someone giving her cancer if the reason why the Krakoa tissue was present is she already had cancer and no one told her and Krakoa knew somehow and was trying to heal her and that is why the Krakoa cancer cells. The cancer cells got "infected" by the plant cells. Boy would Moira have egg on her face!

[Wolverine12]

...

Being a scientist does not preclude you from being evil

She is literally trying to commit genocide.

She’s not trying to kill them though, to call it genocide is a step too far.

[LordUltimus]

She’s not trying to kill them though, to call it genocide is a step too far.

A) We literally see Future Moira kill Future Wolverine, so I don't know why you think she's not on board killing them now.

B) According to the whole Crucible malarkey, being rendered without powers is being dead, so it's pretty much genocide.

C) Cultural genocide exists.

D) Honestly, if someone tried to turn all the gay people in the world straight, I'd probably call it genocide.

[Jv565]

...

Being a scientist does not preclude you from being evil

She is literally trying to commit genocide.

Is she evil though? If a cure can be created, then isn't stopping its creation as unfair to the mutants who may want to be cured as creating it would be to mutants who don't want it? In fact, if you think about it, it may be even more unfair. Opponents assume that humans would make the cure mandatory, and they may be right. But outright stopping it absolutely strips mutants who may want to be cured of their choice.

[BobbysWorld]

Its not actually a given that Moira's precog ban was because she always intended to try and cure mutants and she didn't want precogs seeing that. Its just as likely an interpretation that even while founding Krakoa as their best attempt at saving mutants in this lifetime after nine previous attempts made it seem unlikely this would work either, they were afraid that precogs would reveal that 'mutants always lose' and make even this lifetime a self-fulfilling prophecy in that respect, and prevent the Krakoan experiment from ever getting off the ground. It was already a complicated sell, pitching mutants who historically had spent years fighting each other to come together.....I think the thought process behind 'no precogs allowed on Krakoa' was that Moira, Erik and Charles all felt it'd be next to impossible to unite mutants behind their plans as long as precogs were around going 'yeah this won't work.'

Course, the problem with that was that Moira's own pessimism had already created a self-fulfilling prophecy on its own, and so even while she was moving ahead with the plans for Krakoa, in the back of her mind she was always expecting this lifetime to fail too, and prove right what she'd always believed deep down, that the only true solution was the one she'd come up with on her own in the first place. The cure.

One could argue that whether intended to be written that way or not, Moira-as-actually-executed-in-narrative is a great metaphor for bad actors, aka people who nominally commit themselves to a cause they're persuaded to take up, but on a deeper level really just expect and even WANT to be proven right or have everyone else eventually 'realize' that they were the one who was right all along. Additionally, there's that component of how often people who don't ever ACTUALLY change their mind while superficially doing things more in accordance with what everyone else wants, like, often tend to feel that because they put forth that 'effort,' other people owe it to them to later be like 'okay well since you gave our way of thinking a shot and it didn't work its only fair that we now try your way of thinking and....oh whoa, I see it now, you were right all along and we should have listened to you in the first place!' That sorta thing.

*Shrugs* Personally, I think the true irony of the Moira X plotline is that for all that Charles and Erik asked Moira stuff like 'what about if mutants and machines work together, have we ever tried it that way in any of the past lives'......the one variable they never actually tried was "what if Destiny and Moira work together, have we ever tried using the reincarnating mutant empowered by a thorough vision of history and previous attempts in CONJUNCTION with our most powerful precognitive mutant empowered by thorough visions of the future and possible ideas we haven't yet attempted?"

Instead what we got is two mutants who embody the past and the future respectively, like, in constant opposition to each other and seeing each other as a personal threat to such an extent that they never got around to trying: hey what if we didn't treat failed histories and untested futures as mortal enemies, but rather just as two halves of a potential....dare I say it.....mutant circuit?

[LordUltimus]

Is she evil though? If a cure can be created, then isn't stopping its creation as unfair to the mutants who may want to be cured as creating it would be to mutants who don't want it? In fact, if you think about it, it may be even more unfair. Opponents assume that humans would make the cure mandatory, and they may be right. But outright stopping it absolutely strips mutants who may want to be cured of their choice.

Pretty sure Moira was going to make it mandatory.

[Jv565]

Pretty sure Moira was going to make it mandatory.

Oh. Well then, yeah. That's pretty evil.

[Kurolegacy]

Is she evil though? If a cure can be created, then isn't stopping its creation as unfair to the mutants who may want to be cured as creating it would be to mutants who don't want it? In fact, if you think about it, it may be even more unfair. Opponents assume that humans would make the cure mandatory, and they may be right. But outright stopping it absolutely strips mutants who may want to be cured of their choice.

Let’s be real, given just how things have gone in the past with mutant cures, if a cure were to be created, it wouldn’t be a matter of making it mandatory or not, humans who are against mutants would weaponize it 10 out of 10 times. And thanks to the existence of Krakoa, quite a bit of the mutant population is neatly gathered in one place.

[Hulkout42]

I don't get why she suddenly wants mutants to die/why she wants to be assimilated into the Phalanx.

Well if you factor in how Xavier and Lensherr screwed up the plan and later the actions of Frost who had a de-powering gun and later Irene and Raven who want her dead and in some manner Douglas/Warlock giving her a Phalanx arm by which she was tracked plus the Krakoa Cancer....then i think there has been plenty reason for her to go off teh deep end and now want the opposite of her original intent to save mutants.

Really this whole time line business where one mutants win and another where they don't was bound to happen eventually so really at this point i am waiting for another time line to pop were just humans win and the others factions lose to complete the triangle.

[BobbysWorld]

I mean, I understand that on paper Percy and some other writers seem to think that kind of reasoning makes sense, but its still 'some individuals did bad things to me and so now I'm going to retaliate with actions that will affect untold numbers of innocent people who have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my interpersonal conflicts with a few SPECIFIC mutants.'

[Hulkout42]

I mean, I understand that on paper Percy and some other writers seem to think that kind of reasoning makes sense, but its still 'some individuals did bad things to me and so now I'm going to retaliate with actions that will affect untold numbers of innocent people who have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my interpersonal conflicts with a few SPECIFIC mutants.'

Yeah but i believe that in Marvel's mind they have to do this because demz the rules!

[Glio]

I don't really understand Moira's motivation here. I'm a bit lost.

[Rev9]

I don't really understand Moira's motivation here. I'm a bit lost.

Mystique and Irene messed with the wrong woman.

[Frobisher]

I don't ever like to judge a book based on the synopsis, but Hickman left them a crap exit plan as revenge for him being forced out, right?