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  1. #16
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    https://www.cbr.com/marvel-spider-ma...tes-downsides/

    I'm amused Green Goblin made #5. It's true, but not for the reason listed.
    I don't think family members should count against the arbitrary overexposed appearance quota. Put Liz Allan in Venom, and it's an example of the parasitic relationship spin-off books have on the franchise. Put her in Spider-Man, and it's "Osborn family drama overexposure" hours once more. Marvel cannot win.
    On a similar note, I hope the Kindred arc wasn't "counted" as Norman wasn't "behind everything". When Spider-Man's archenemy appears spoilers:
    in Spider-Man 2099: exodus alpha
    end of spoilers, my initial musings shouldn't be about whether Mephisto is ultimately responsible. I'd welcome a possible return to form if it meant Mephisto was buried under the Shed.
    As I see it, merging overexposure and master manipulator Norman weakened their intended argument. It is odd to suggest Spider-man's books stagnate because of a cliche no longer in place. It's been ten years at least since we've seen that kind of status quo for 616 Peter Parker. I agree Spider-man's other
    villainous figures need more attention. Tombstone's appearance in ASM #1 was the highlight of the book.
    They've all been mismanaged alongside Peter Parker and his supporting cast. Most contemporary Osborn showings were failed attempts to fundamentally change the character, so a more fair criticism might be "616 is running short on ideas for the Green Goblin". I'd have split that off from the "neglected villain" argument to make a list of nine.
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-17-2022 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #17
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    https://www.cbr.com/marvel-spider-ma...tes-downsides/

    I'm amused Green Goblin made #5. It's true, but not for the reason listed.
    I don't think family members should count against the arbitrary overexposed appearance quota. Put Liz Allan in Venom, and it's an example of the parasitic relationship spin-off books have on the franchise. Put her in Spider-Man, and it's "Osborn family drama overexposure" hours once more. Marvel cannot win.
    On a similar note, I hope the Kindred arc wasn't "counted" as Norman wasn't "behind everything". When Spider-Man's archenemy appears spoilers:
    in Spider-Man 2099: exodus alpha
    end of spoilers, my initial musings shouldn't be about whether Mephisto is ultimately responsible. I'd welcome a possible return to form if it meant Mephisto was buried under the Shed.
    As I see it, merging overexposure and master manipulator Norman weakened their intended argument. It is odd to suggest Spider-man's books stagnate because of a cliche no longer in place. It's been ten years at least since we've seen that kind of status quo for 616 Peter Parker. I agree Spider-man's other
    villainous figures need more attention. Tombstone's appearance in ASM #1 was the highlight of the book.
    They've all been mismanaged alongside Peter Parker and his supporting cast. Most contemporary Osborn showings were failed attempts to fundamentally change the character, so a more fair criticism might be "616 is running short on ideas for the Green Goblin". I'd have split that off from the "neglected villain" argument to make a list of nine.
    That's a fair point, and I can see the argument that making Mephisto the ultimate catalyst for Norman Osborn's descent into increasingly depraved villainy ultimately cheapens Osborn as a villain, let alone as Spider-Man's archenemy, in the first place. As for burying Mephisto "under the Shed," did you capitalize the word "shed" in reference to the same story by Zeb Wells back in Brand New Day, by any chance?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a fair point, and I can see the argument that making Mephisto the ultimate catalyst for Norman Osborn's descent into increasingly depraved villainy ultimately cheapens Osborn as a villain, let alone as Spider-Man's archenemy, in the first place. As for burying Mephisto "under the Shed," did you capitalize the word "shed" in reference to the same story by Zeb Wells back in Brand New Day, by any chance?
    Thank you. Gathering of Five, Civil War Frontlines, Absolute Carnage, and now this. Osborn gets subsumed frequently.
    lol.jpg
    I couldn't resist the temptation. I've wanted that story retconned as an Elseworlds for so long. Now? Call it Senseless Violence if you like. I just want the lizard to savor some Mephisto munchies.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Thank you. Gathering of Five, Civil War Frontlines, Absolute Carnage, and now this. Osborn gets subsumed frequently.
    lol.jpg
    I couldn't resist the temptation. I've wanted that story retconned as an Elseworlds for so long. Now? Call it Senseless Violence if you like. I just want the lizard to savor some Mephisto munchies.
    Yeah, that would be nice. Come to think of it, though, Dark Reign might not have happened without Osborn's role in Civil War: Frontline setting the groundwork.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #20
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    Funny, but back in the Silver Age, Gobby didn't really commit any crime up until he kidnapped Gwen and threw her off the George Washington Bridge. As far as I know, he didn't rob banks or jewellery I guess he thought beating SpidSpsenoubhpsenoubhidey was enough to make him mob boss.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamtheday View Post
    Funny, but back in the Silver Age, Gobby didn't really commit any crime up until he kidnapped Gwen and threw her off the George Washington Bridge. As far as I know, he didn't rob banks or jewellery I guess he thought beating SpidSpsenoubhpsenoubhidey was enough to make him mob boss.
    Considering Spider-Man was a persistent thorn in the side of the mob, he probably figured they'd make him leader in gratitude if he took Spidey out.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Considering Spider-Man was a persistent thorn in the side of the mob, he probably figured they'd make him leader in gratitude if he took Spidey out.
    That does make sense.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a fair point, and I can see the argument that making Mephisto the ultimate catalyst for Norman Osborn's descent into increasingly depraved villainy ultimately cheapens Osborn as a villain, let alone as Spider-Man's archenemy, in the first place.
    It's a dumb idea because it elevates Mephisto too damn much, Norman was behind Gwen's death and was eventually retconned into being the mastermind behind clone saga, his horrible treatment of Harry made him become a Green Goblin eventually which led to Harry's death, but because he treated Harry so poorly, he's indirectly the reason Spidey's LMD parents happened, and now with Spencer's run, Stacy twins too, and besides Harry, he has another dark legacy with the many Hobgoblins and other Green Goblins, and now Mephisto is behind all of this by proxy because the way the scene from ASM#73 vol 5 is framed, is implying that Mephisto planned for Norman to become Green Goblin, or at the very least, him making Oscorp succeed did it anyways:





    I mean ****, I don't really care about Norman that much, but it's not hard to see how silly it is to make someone else be behind him like this lol.

    It'd be like if Superman comics retconned Brainiac into being the reason Luthor hates Superman so much, or if Batman comics retconned Two-Face into being the reason Joker is so obsessed with Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by williamtheday View Post
    Funny, but back in the Silver Age, Gobby didn't really commit any crime up until he kidnapped Gwen and threw her off the George Washington Bridge. As far as I know, he didn't rob banks or jewellery I guess he thought beating SpidSpsenoubhpsenoubhidey was enough to make him mob boss.
    He tried to kill Spidey in his first appearance.

    That and he was constantly working behind the scenes with other people to commit crimes, all in an attempt to take over the crime world, basically trying to become Kingpin before Kingpin was even a thing.

    At best you can say he wasn't really seen commiting crimes, but that's it, he's been doing 'em since his debut lol.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It's a dumb idea because it elevates Mephisto too damn much, Norman was behind Gwen's death and was eventually retconned into being the mastermind behind clone saga, his horrible treatment of Harry made him become a Green Goblin eventually which led to Harry's death, but because he treated Harry so poorly, he's indirectly the reason Spidey's LMD parents happened, and now with Spencer's run, Stacy twins too, and besides Harry, he has another dark legacy with the many Hobgoblins and other Green Goblins, and now Mephisto is behind all of this by proxy because the way the scene from ASM#73 vol 5 is framed, is implying that Mephisto planned for Norman to become Green Goblin, or at the very least, him making Oscorp succeed did it anyways
    Probably not what Spencer intended, but my head canon is that Mephisto simply lied about the reach of the deal. So he also changed the past all the way back, not just up to the day of the wedding.

    Would fit up to Last Remains. It also makes Peter look even worse (his best friend goes to hell because of him), but it could've worked out if the Sinister War ending hadn't turned out to be a red herring.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    Mephisto simply lied about the reach of the deal
    One of the nice things about Mephisto being the Prince of Lies is that you can just put some of the stuff you dislike down to Mephisto just making **** up.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I mean ****, I don't really care about Norman that much, but it's not hard to see how silly it is to make someone else be behind him like this lol.

    It'd be like if Superman comics retconned Brainiac into being the reason Luthor hates Superman so much, or if Batman comics retconned Two-Face into being the reason Joker is so obsessed with Batman.
    My problem isn't so much with the retcon as it is with no-one in-story having the slightest reaction to it. Norman forgot about the deal after he made it but now he knows, and if he was really "redeemed" he'd surely be doing some serious soul searching/going absolutely insane with guilt (especially since Harry is also dead now because of him) but nothing.

    Peter was in the room when Norman admitted making the deal and you'd think that would trigger some sort of, I dunno utterly incandescent fury, but nope he's working with Norman now with nary a word about that pesky devil business.

    Harry is told directly by Norman that Norman sold his soul to the devil, but a few minutes later he's taken a fatal blow for Norman, for some reason.

    The retcon could have been really good! Honestly! But... I'm just baffled by it. Was it a remnant of the original OMD-related plans for that story? That's the only reason I can think of as to why it's NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN even by the characters who should have had their entire lives upended by it.
    harryosborn.net -Me rereading every single comic that has Harry Osborn in it, and also writing some articles.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    My problem isn't so much with the retcon as it is with no-one in-story having the slightest reaction to it. Norman forgot about the deal after he made it but now he knows, and if he was really "redeemed" he'd surely be doing some serious soul searching/going absolutely insane with guilt (especially since Harry is also dead now because of him) but nothing.

    Peter was in the room when Norman admitted making the deal and you'd think that would trigger some sort of, I dunno utterly incandescent fury, but nope he's working with Norman now with nary a word about that pesky devil business.

    Harry is told directly by Norman that Norman sold his soul to the devil, but a few minutes later he's taken a fatal blow for Norman, for some reason.

    The retcon could have been really good! Honestly! But... I'm just baffled by it. Was it a remnant of the original OMD-related plans for that story? That's the only reason I can think of as to why it's NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN even by the characters who should have had their entire lives upended by it.
    I agree with Webhead - I'm wondering if the idea was that OMD allowed Mephisto to meddle even further back in Peter's life. I mean, why would Mephisto stop his interference at being a pigeon? That's rather...boringly pedestrian for Mephisto.

    Regardless, I agree it could have been a reallygood retcon and Spencer is usually a more thorough plotter than what resulted so I'm also guessing the story was truncated.

    As for Wells not picking up on the loose plot threads, well, he's using a time skip. There could still be an explanation for why Peter and Norman have waved their hands (and also Liz, who is fine with Norman taking her kids for the day even though he now has a track record of selling his flesh and blood to the Devil). But I'm not holding my breath for one.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    Probably not what Spencer intended, but my head canon is that Mephisto simply lied about the reach of the deal. So he also changed the past all the way back, not just up to the day of the wedding.

    Would fit up to Last Remains. It also makes Peter look even worse (his best friend goes to hell because of him), but it could've worked out if the Sinister War ending hadn't turned out to be a red herring.
    The deal is so annoyingly vague that this could work, though I do question how it could affect anyone besides Spidey and MJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    My problem isn't so much with the retcon as it is with no-one in-story having the slightest reaction to it. Norman forgot about the deal after he made it but now he knows, and if he was really "redeemed" he'd surely be doing some serious soul searching/going absolutely insane with guilt (especially since Harry is also dead now because of him) but nothing.

    Peter was in the room when Norman admitted making the deal and you'd think that would trigger some sort of, I dunno utterly incandescent fury, but nope he's working with Norman now with nary a word about that pesky devil business.

    Harry is told directly by Norman that Norman sold his soul to the devil, but a few minutes later he's taken a fatal blow for Norman, for some reason.

    The retcon could have been really good! Honestly! But... I'm just baffled by it. Was it a remnant of the original OMD-related plans for that story? That's the only reason I can think of as to why it's NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN even by the characters who should have had their entire lives upended by it.
    I don't see how the retcon would be a good idea even if everyone else reacted properly, it'd just have made Norman into Mephisto's goon, and that's the whole problem, Mephisto shouldn't have such a reach lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  14. #29
    Mighty Member Webhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    The deal is so annoyingly vague that this could work, though I do question how it could affect anyone besides Spidey and MJ.
    It opens a can of worms, for sure. But I believe it addresses two issues: 1) most of the themes and imagery of the Spencer run until Last Remains (Harry being equally pissed at Peter and Norman, which if Peter's deal happened to send him to Hell with Norman as proxy, makes sense); 2) it changes the original continuity but, by establishing it was messed with, it preserves it in a roundabout way and allows for things to be put back in place (a bit like the Hydra Cap deal).

    Sadly I doubt the extent of the changes made to Spencer's wrapping up will ever be clear.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    It opens a can of worms, for sure. But I believe it addresses two issues: 1) most of the themes and imagery of the Spencer run until Last Remains (Harry being equally pissed at Peter and Norman, which if Peter's deal happened to send him to Hell with Norman as proxy, makes sense); 2) it changes the original continuity but, by establishing it was messed with, it preserves it in a roundabout way and allows for things to be put back in place (a bit like the Hydra Cap deal).

    Sadly I doubt the extent of the changes made to Spencer's wrapping up will ever be clear.
    Now I like this theory even more than before. It makes story sense - because Mephisto is the Prince of Lies and he is always going to try and exploit the loopholes in his deal - that if Mephisto wants Peter's and MJ's love, to go all the way back to Norman and Harry. After all, if Harry hadn't ODed, perhaps he and MJ would have gotten back together. If Norman didn't kill Gwen, Peter and MJ might never have been. So Mephisto is just assuring the events play out as they need to and ends up with Harry's soul in the bargain, which Mephisto would see as a delightful bonus. And it explains why Kindred!Harry was so angry at Peter, for seeking a deal with Mephisto and agreeing to give up love - something Harry didn't receive a lot of.

    I guess we'll never know Spencer's original story intentions - if he even had any other than what is on the page - but I can see something like that being the long game.

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