Original Green Goblin (Norman Osborn) Appreciation 2022

[Alex_Of_X]

It was one of my initial thoughts too. The Dafoe interpretation is something of a popular character himself.

I think more importantly, though, stories like this serve to reinforce why Spidey is justified in not killing his foes -- especially the Goblin. If you want to keep the Goblin around, at some point, there has to be an in-story justification for why Peter never ends him no matter how dangerous he is. The story occasionally has to remind you that he's right to make that call. If Goblisn keeping show up and trying to murder Aunt May or whoever else Peter cares about, at some point, you run into the 'Joker Problem' that's always bandied about. Showing that a character like Norman can evolve reinforces one aspect of Peter's overarching story.

(Stupid Nick Spencer's Mephistol Deal BS should just never be spoken of again.)

If we're ever in the same timezone, I'm buying you a drink, Tendrin

Also--I think there's a parallel to Peter and Norman that's not discussed much. Pete's irresponsibility led to Uncle Ben dying, and you could say that Norman's (goblin) mania made his kill Gwen. I think a part of Pete now thinks that Norm cut off from the Goblin might just heed the "Great Power, Great responsibility" mantra and do some real good.

After all, Pete himself managed to turn over a new leaf.

And yeah--we all know he's gonna break bad again, but the point stands. Nothing lasts forever

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

It hit me; it makes we wonder if this turnabout with Norman is to make his 616-version as sympathetic as the Tobey Maguire Spidey-verse Norman, or even the 90’s Animated series? That version was never truly a bad guy… but the Goblin persona was.

This could be the comics version to go that route…. Maybe.

That's what always gets me, though, Raimiverse Norman isn't sympathetic, or he shouldn't be. The first two things we learn about him are that he designs weapons for a living, neglects his son, and values power above all. That's before he does any experiments on himself. Later on when he's in non-goblin mode he's seen very obviously leering at the much younger MJ and then telling Harry that she, his own mother and indeed all women are nothing but gold-diggers.

No Way Home missed the mark massively when they portrayed him as a fairly reasonable guy who just happens to have an evil second personality. If anything he has two personalities and both of them are evil.

[Huntsman Spider]

If we're ever in the same timezone, I'm buying you a drink, Tendrin

Also--I think there's a parallel to Peter and Norman that's not discussed much. Pete's irresponsibility led to Uncle Ben dying, and you could say that Norman's (goblin) mania made his kill Gwen. I think a part of Pete now thinks that Norm cut off from the Goblin might just heed the "Great Power, Great responsibility" mantra and do some real good.

After all, Pete himself managed to turn over a new leaf.

And yeah--we all know he's gonna break bad again, but the point stands. Nothing lasts forever

Fair point, which has been made before, though not as much as maybe it should be. As Mark Millar had them point out in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #1-12, both of them have arguably wasted their genius minds and superpowers on "silly costumed grudge matches" that have lasted years instead of putting their potential to better use, though of course, as Norman adds, the difference between him and Peter is that Norman "doesn't give a rat's ass." Which is really the point of separation between them; Peter cares more about his fellow man (and woman) and the world around him than about accruing power, status, and wealth, whereas Norman only cares about power, status, and wealth, albeit as a means to the end of tormenting Peter, as he will gladly forfeit that wealth and status if they stand in the way of fulfilling his spiteful vendetta against Peter.

That's what always gets me, though, Raimiverse Norman isn't sympathetic, or he shouldn't be. The first two things we learn about him are that he designs weapons for a living, neglects his son, and values power above all. That's before he does any experiments on himself. Later on when he's in non-goblin mode he's seen very obviously leering at the much younger MJ and then telling Harry that she, his own mother and indeed all women are nothing but gold-diggers.

No Way Home missed the mark massively when they portrayed him as a fairly reasonable guy who just happens to have an evil second personality. If anything he has two personalities and both of them are evil.

That's a fair point, although I'd argue that even when both personalities were portrayed as fairly reprehensible, the Norman side didn't want to hurt Peter as much as the Goblin did after realizing Peter was Spider-Man. Of course, the Goblin's solution was to simply attack Peter/Spider-Man through the people he loved and cared about most, specifically Aunt May and Mary Jane, the latter even forming half the crux of the "sadistic choice" he offered Peter, so . . . Maybe the best thing that could be said for him was that as he was dying of being impaled by his own glider after trying (and failing) to sic it on Peter, his last words were, "Don't tell Harry," implying that even he realized what a monster he was and had become and didn't want Harry to suffer any further from that being known.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

It hit me; it makes we wonder if this turnabout with Norman is to make his 616-version as sympathetic as the Tobey Maguire Spidey-verse Norman, or even the 90’s Animated series? That version was never truly a bad guy… but the Goblin persona was.

This could be the comics version to go that route…. Maybe.

There is definitely a bit of NWH brand synergy going on with Wells' run.

As much as I love NWH recalibrating Holland's Spider-Man and coronating all three Spidey's as equals (and therefore ensuring the MCU Spider-Man didn't become "better by default"), the big downside is the film doubled down on Raimi's Goblin and Ock being the definitive takes on those villains. We may not see genuinely sane and evil versions of those villains for a while, maybe in any medium.

Spectacular Goblin and Ock (and to a lesser extent Insomniac Ock) might turn out to be the only adaptations to embrace their classic 616 characterizations, and that's just dissappointing.

[Lukmendes]

Maybe, but technically, Luthor's post-COIE revamp in the 1980s could be considered a riff on the corrupt industrialist turned supervillain archetype already established by Norman Osborn in the Amazing Spider-Man comics from the 1960s-1970s, so who was really ripping off whom?

The problem is that Norman barely used the power he logically would have by being a corrupt rich guy, even in Ditko's run, the biggest thing that makes him being rich and corrupt that has focus on is how he fucked over Mendel Stromm, and soon after that he was doing stuff like putting disguises to do shit around instead of just hiring people, and hell, even in ASM#37 Norman was doing stuff by himself.

Luthor's post-Crisis revamp isn't really infleunced by Norman, because Norman's power as a rich person was barely scratched, and while Ditko set him up to be a threat as Norman, that ended up not happening, Norman was just a corrupt businessman who was mildly harmless for most of Romita's run, only really doing stuff as Green Goblin (Even that was just twice), and it's Conway who got rid of him, but the Norman side didn't really use his power.

So yeah, there's little of Norman in post-Crisis Luthor, he's more blatantly influenced by Miller's revamp of Kingpin, to the point I remember people saying that post-Crisis Luthor was just skinny Kingpin.

It hit me; it makes we wonder if this turnabout with Norman is to make his 616-version as sympathetic as the Tobey Maguire Spidey-verse Norman, or even the 90’s Animated series? That version was never truly a bad guy… but the Goblin persona was.

This could be the comics version to go that route…. Maybe.

That would require Marvel to ignore every time Norman was a vile piece of shit with no real Goblin influence.

Reminder that just a few years ago, this guy wanted to have the Goblin powers again to the point he decided to go after the Carnage symbiote for it.

Trying to say that poor Norman is just a lil' bitch who was manipulated by the Green Meanie doesn't work at all.

It was one of my initial thoughts too. The Dafoe interpretation is something of a popular character himself.

I think more importantly, though, stories like this serve to reinforce why Spidey is justified in not killing his foes -- especially the Goblin. If you want to keep the Goblin around, at some point, there has to be an in-story justification for why Peter never ends him no matter how dangerous he is. The story occasionally has to remind you that he's right to make that call. If Goblisn keeping show up and trying to murder Aunt May or whoever else Peter cares about, at some point, you run into the 'Joker Problem' that's always bandied about. Showing that a character like Norman can evolve reinforces one aspect of Peter's overarching story.

(Stupid Nick Spencer's Mephistol Deal BS should just never be spoken of again.)

The guy already killed Gwen, he masterminded clone saga to fuck over Spidey, made the "actress pretends to be aunt May" to fuck with Spidey, he killed Ben, he buried aunt May and then tried to kill MJ in the same story, he took over Shield to do villain shit, he lost the Goblin Serum and decided to still be evil by getting involved in another country's politics, went back to USA, got the Carnage symbiote and tried to kill aunt May and MJ again, then killed Flash and a bunch of people just to spite Spidey.

He is already the "Joker problem", has been since he returned.

And Spidey, and by extension all other heroes and the prisons not killing people like him are basically insanity if you actually think about it, which you don't have to think that hard about, considering Spidey once was against killing Carnage by saying "He's the most innocent of us all" lol.

If we're ever in the same timezone, I'm buying you a drink, Tendrin

Also--I think there's a parallel to Peter and Norman that's not discussed much. Pete's irresponsibility led to Uncle Ben dying, and you could say that Norman's (goblin) mania made his kill Gwen. I think a part of Pete now thinks that Norm cut off from the Goblin might just heed the "Great Power, Great responsibility" mantra and do some real good.

After all, Pete himself managed to turn over a new leaf.

And yeah--we all know he's gonna break bad again, but the point stands. Nothing lasts forever

I mean, the problem is how artificial the whole thing is, because Norman didn't change by his own choice, some magic shotgun made him get Sin Eater's guilt lol.

It's undeserving, just like Spidey having Parker Industries was undeserving.

Fair point, which has been made before, though not as much as maybe it should be. As Mark Millar had them point out in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #1-12, both of them have arguably wasted their genius minds and superpowers on "silly costumed grudge matches" that have lasted years instead of putting their potential to better use, though of course, as Norman adds, the difference between him and Peter is that Norman "doesn't give a rat's ass." Which is really the point of separation between them; Peter cares more about his fellow man (and woman) and the world around him than about accruing power, status, and wealth, whereas Norman only cares about power, status, and wealth, albeit as a means to the end of tormenting Peter, as he will gladly forfeit that wealth and status if they stand in the way of fulfilling his spiteful vendetta against Peter.

And considering that Norman's hate for Spidey started because Spidey got in his way a few times when he wanted to take over the underworld, he really takes shit too damn far lol.

It wasn't just this, since Norman at some point saw Spidey as everything that was going wrong with his life, but it's funny how it started in a relatively mundane way.

That's a fair point, although I'd argue that even when both personalities were portrayed as fairly reprehensible, the Norman side didn't want to hurt Peter as much as the Goblin did after realizing Peter was Spider-Man. Of course, the Goblin's solution was to simply attack Peter/Spider-Man through the people he loved and cared about most, specifically Aunt May and Mary Jane, the latter even forming half the crux of the "sadistic choice" he offered Peter, so . . . Maybe the best thing that could be said for him was that as he was dying of being impaled by his own glider after trying (and failing) to sic it on Peter, his last words were, "Don't tell Harry," implying that even he realized what a monster he was and had become and didn't want Harry to suffer any further from that being known.

The problem is that Norman's own repulsiveness is less noticeable compared to the Goblin's, who's way more violent about it, and their interactions just have Norman being a lil' bitch while Goblin orders him around, which makes it look like he's not an evil person being pushed into doing bad stuff lol.

There is definitely a bit of NWH brand synergy going on with Wells' run.

As much as I love NWH recalibrating Holland's Spider-Man and coronating all three Spidey's as equals (and therefore ensuring the MCU Spider-Man didn't become "better by default"), the big downside is the film doubled down on Raimi's Goblin and Ock being the definitive takes on those villains. We may not see genuinely sane and evil versions of those villains for a while, maybe in any medium.

Spectacular Goblin and Ock (and to a lesser extent Insomniac Ock) might turn out to be the only adaptations to embrace their classic 616 characterizations, and that's just dissappointing.

Insomniac Otto goes a bit too much in this "I was sad once and now I'm evil", 'cause Otto is a terrorist first, sad sack second lol.

While Spectacular Otto did start as a sad sack, boy that was gone after a while, he has understandable reasons for going evil, but he's just an evil piece of shit afterwards, and that's more comic accurate.

[Huntsman Spider]

The problem is that Norman barely used the power he logically would have by being a corrupt rich guy, even in Ditko's run, the biggest thing that makes him being rich and corrupt that has focus on is how he fucked over Mendel Stromm, and soon after that he was doing stuff like putting disguises to do shit around instead of just hiring people, and hell, even in ASM#37 Norman was doing stuff by himself.

Luthor's post-Crisis revamp isn't really infleunced by Norman, because Norman's power as a rich person was barely scratched, and while Ditko set him up to be a threat as Norman, that ended up not happening, Norman was just a corrupt businessman who was mildly harmless for most of Romita's run, only really doing stuff as Green Goblin (Even that was just twice), and it's Conway who got rid of him, but the Norman side didn't really use his power.

So yeah, there's little of Norman in post-Crisis Luthor, he's more blatantly influenced by Miller's revamp of Kingpin, to the point I remember people saying that post-Crisis Luthor was just skinny Kingpin.



That would require Marvel to ignore every time Norman was a vile piece of shit with no real Goblin influence.

Reminder that just a few years ago, this guy wanted to have the Goblin powers again to the point he decided to go after the Carnage symbiote for it.

Trying to say that poor Norman is just a lil' bitch who was manipulated by the Green Meanie doesn't work at all.



The guy already killed Gwen, he masterminded clone saga to fuck over Spidey, made the "actress pretends to be aunt May" to fuck with Spidey, he killed Ben, he buried aunt May and then tried to kill MJ in the same story, he took over Shield to do villain shit, he lost the Goblin Serum and decided to still be evil by getting involved in another country's politics, went back to USA, got the Carnage symbiote and tried to kill aunt May and MJ again, then killed Flash and a bunch of people just to spite Spidey.

He is already the "Joker problem", has been since he returned.

And Spidey, and by extension all other heroes and the prisons not killing people like him are basically insanity if you actually think about it, which you don't have to think that hard about, considering Spidey once was against killing Carnage by saying "He's the most innocent of us all" lol.



I mean, the problem is how artificial the whole thing is, because Norman didn't change by his own choice, some magic shotgun made him get Sin Eater's guilt lol.

It's undeserving, just like Spidey having Parker Industries was undeserving.



And considering that Norman's hate for Spidey started because Spidey got in his way a few times when he wanted to take over the underworld, he really takes shit too damn far lol.

It wasn't just this, since Norman at some point saw Spidey as everything that was going wrong with his life, but it's funny how it started in a relatively mundane way.



The problem is that Norman's own repulsiveness is less noticeable compared to the Goblin's, who's way more violent about it, and their interactions just have Norman being a lil' bitch while Goblin orders him around, which makes it look like he's not an evil person being pushed into doing bad stuff lol.



Insomniac Otto goes a bit too much in this "I was sad once and now I'm evil", 'cause Otto is a terrorist first, sad sack second lol.

While Spectacular Otto did start as a sad sack, boy that was gone after a while, he has understandable reasons for going evil, but he's just an evil piece of shit afterwards, and that's more comic accurate.

Fair points, and let's not forget Insomniac Otto/Doc Ock was the reason Aunt May died at the end, so . . .

[Tendrin]

'Sympathetic' doesn't mean good. Frustrated businessman Norman who's in a desperate position can be sympathetic. It doesn't mean he's a great person, but the Goblin is pretty clearly meant to be the worst, most unhinged version of himself. It's in there.

I also would say that he was definitely the goblin in the scene where he's ranting about gold diggers, 'coz that's where he figures out Peter is Spidey, isn't it?

[Huntsman Spider]

'Sympathetic' doesn't mean good. Frustrated businessman Norman who's in a desperate position can be sympathetic. It doesn't mean he's a great person, but the Goblin is pretty clearly meant to be the worst, most unhinged version of himself. It's in there.

I also would say that he was definitely the goblin in the scene where he's ranting about gold diggers, 'coz that's where he figures out Peter is Spidey, isn't it?

Maybe it was a little bit of the Goblin coming out there, but you otherwise raise a valid point.

[Turlast]

I have a question about the Goblin Serum.

As shown in the OP, the old handbook says none of the Goblins had any Superhuman powers.

Most of Green Goblin's early showdowns consist of him relying on his gadgets.

But there a few instances that seem to focus on his strength:



Norman says the accident made him stronger.

Spidey makes note of Norman's strength when he sees him tossing around furniture with ease.



When Spidey was fighting with Stromm's robots:



So even though it isn't directly stated, Norman possessing Superhuman strength seems to be strongly implied.

After Hobby's first encounter with Spidey, he says he doesn't understand how Green Goblin was able to keep up. That's when he decided to test the Goblin Formula out.

So my question is this: was it Hobgoblin's story that led to Green Goblin officially becoming a Superhuman? Or do you believe there are enough examples to put him in the Superhuman class regardless of the handbook entry?

[Lukmendes]

I have a question about the Goblin Serum.

As shown in the OP, the old handbook says none of the Goblins had any Superhuman powers.

Most of Green Goblin's early showdowns consist of him relying on his gadgets.

But there a few instances that seem to focus on his strength:

https://i.imgur.com/CY1LZVp.jpg

Norman says the accident made him stronger.

Spidey makes note of Norman's strength when he sees him tossing around furniture with ease.

https://i.imgur.com/87I4OX6.jpg

When Spidey was fighting with Stromm's robots:

https://i.imgur.com/EuP6TgR.jpg

So even though it isn't directly stated, Norman possessing Superhuman strength seems to be strongly implied.

After Hobby's first encounter with Spidey, he says he doesn't understand how Green Goblin was able to keep up. That's when he decided to test the Goblin Formula out.

So my question is this: was it Hobgoblin's story that led to Green Goblin officially becoming a Superhuman? Or do you believe there are enough examples to put him in the Superhuman class regardless of the handbook entry?

Ditko's run itself seemed like he didn't have super-human strength, but ASM#37 is an oddball when it comes to that, since Norman knocks down Spidey with a single punch (And contrary to popular believe, he always planned for Norman to be GG, so that's noticeable), sure he took Spidey by surprise, but Spidey has shown that he can tank a lot of attacks from regular people, with the most noticeable example being ASM#33 where he tanks a bunch of Otto's goons attacking him, and even uses their attacks on him to rest.

It's possible that under Ditko, GG was meant to have super-human strength but didn't get the chance to show it off because he generally didn't let Spidey get close enough, or that he wasn't meant to have it and ASM#37 had bad writing.

After Ditko though, Romita and Lee showed that Norman did have super-human strength in Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine#2 (Which the second scan you posted is from), since it has a moment where Norman uses his super strength to shake hands with Peter, and he does it hard enough that it'd break anyone else's hand, and during their fight, Spidey himself points out that he's strong, and that it's Spidey's own speed that helps him in keeping up:





Though it is worth pointing out that Spidey still points out he has to hold back, so maybe Norman's strength is still below his'.

Checking out the fights in Drug Trilogy and when he killed Gwen though, they don't put much emphasis on his strength there, if at all, and maybe it's because of stories like these that the handbook decided to say Goblins don't have super strength, 'cause most of the fights had him not really using it, and the only one that really shows it off is Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine#2.

Afterwards, Harry showed nothing, and Bart did show what's looks like super-strength in and enhanced speed in ASM#177 though:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...41/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...74/unknown.png



Only the speed is pointed out, but he seems to have casually thrown someone, although characters like Daredevil have had similar feats, and I think he didn't take the Goblin Serum too... And the very next issue has him punching Spidey and Spidey points out his punches are weak:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...98/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...96/unknown.png

(ASM#178).

So, I think the short version is, maybe Norman was meant to have super strength in Ditko's run if ASM#37 is any hint, and at least post Ditko he was meant to have it, but most fights besides Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine#2 didn't show it off, and then Norman seemingly didn't have it under Conway when Gwen is killed, and neither Harry or Bart really looked like they had super strength too (Though I'm not sure if either of them used the Goblin Serum), so maybe Goblin Serum was quietly retconned to not give super-strength for a while until Stern retconned it back in.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

So my question is this: was it Hobgoblin's story that led to Green Goblin officially becoming a Superhuman? Or do you believe there are enough examples to put him in the Superhuman class regardless of the handbook entry?

I think Norman had superhuman feats from Day 1 in comics. There is no other explanation for how he is able to dodge Spider-Man and knock him out, both as Gobby and as Norman in ASM #37.

[Toxin45]

Gold goblin stuff in dark web gets some fight against chasm

[Mercwmouth12]

Gold goblin stuff in dark web gets some fight against chasm

It wasn't a fight and you still don't know what fake Kaine's powers are

[Toxin45]

It wasn't a fight and you still don't know what fake Kaine's powers are

Umm okay? Mor like a chase or cat and mouse?

[Huntsman Spider]

Gold goblin stuff in dark web gets some fight against chasm

It wasn't a fight and you still don't know what fake Kaine's powers are

Umm okay? Mor like a chase or cat and mouse?

It was more like a one-sided beatdown, from Chasm to Goldie. Fun times.