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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamtheday View Post
    Funny, but back in the Silver Age, Gobby didn't really commit any crime up until he kidnapped Gwen and threw her off the George Washington Bridge. As far as I know, he didn't rob banks or jewellery I guess he thought beating SpidSpsenoubhpsenoubhidey was enough to make him mob boss.
    He was a bad guy but I could probably write a paper on how the Green Goblin was accidentally turned into Spider-Man's archenemy and choosing to avoid using him only thrust him further into the position

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It'd be like if Superman comics retconned Brainiac into being the reason Luthor hates Superman so much, or if Batman comics retconned Two-Face into being the reason Joker is so obsessed with Batman.
    From my perspective Mephisto's involvement is another way of showing Marvel's lack of respect for Peter Parker. The retcon doesn't even use his rogue's gallery. Spencer outsourced the villain. It would be like Eobard Thawne was responsible for Joker's fixation or saying Teth-Adam influenced Lex Luthor in the main universe. It would be best if that wasn't done with heroes like Spider-man.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    My problem isn't so much with the retcon as it is with no-one in-story having the slightest reaction to it.
    I can't really judge Osborn's behavior in the preview since Spencer established he's a good actor. If Osborn is feeling nothing, it reinforces my opinion that the Arch dynamic causes its holders to lose their personality beyond existing as an extension of their heroes and is fundamentally harmful to the villain who has it. Your threat level usually goes up in proportion to how much your hero is respected, but the cost is often losing character nuance. Before anyone points out Victor von Doom, he avoids this by being written by fanboys, relying on malfunctioning Doombots, ignoring his flaws, and vilifying Reed Richards.
    There's no excuse for Peter beyond a supremely unsatisfying "Mephisto made everyone who made a deal forget again".

    The retcon could have been really good! Honestly! But... I'm just baffled by it. Was it a remnant of the original OMD-related plans for that story? That's the only reason I can think of as to why it's NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN even by the characters who should have had their entire lives upended by it.
    It would have worked as an Elseworld story. It's a decent backstory for this guy, in fact.
    tumblr_b22b71891580ad97ba6cf287567bb2fb_b91ab36c_1280_kindlephoto-25523649.jpg
    There's not much on Ghost Goblin/Norman Osborn. Osborn could have given up his son for money. Later, when Osborn discovers what he did, he blames the societal expectations that influenced him to make that decision and destroys his entire universe. In a ultimate monkey's paw reversal, Mephisto stops Mayday from ever being born but is killed in that universe by his "creation" in revenge. Afterward, the goblin hooks up with the Multiversal masters of evil and continues his rampage in universes where Harry Osborn is dead in an omnicidal suicide run, forcing others to take Osborn out. In this scenerio, Osborn won't do it himself because the goblin considers suicide the coward's way out. This is me just me spit-balling. I don't know what they're doing with the ghost rider hybrid.

    In 616, this retcon means the Osborns are quirky miniboss mooks. Norman's actions brought about what Mephisto wanted to avoid. Harry made it obvious he didn't want to hurt Mary Jane and didn't do much to stop Peter and MJ from getting together. They're Mephisto's Team Rocket. The twins are the talking cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    Romita's jr's inks and pencils for a Norman/Peter scene has surfaced online

    spoilers:
    looks like Peter's starting work at Oscorp
    end of spoilers
    Dammit. spoilers:
    This is far too soon to justify Oscorp. We haven't even explained how Osborn works at Oscorp.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-19-2022 at 06:27 PM.

  2. #47
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    I like your theory on Ghost Goblin, Tabs.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    He was a bad guy but I could probably write a paper on how the Green Goblin was accidentally turned into Spider-Man's archenemy and choosing to avoid using him only thrust him further into the position
    He got the benefit of disappearing for a while then doing something big when he returned, killing Gwen and the horrible retcon that made him Clone Saga's mastermind, yeah lol.

    From my perspective Mephisto's involvement is another way of showing Marvel's lack of respect for Peter Parker. The retcon doesn't even use his rogue's gallery. Spencer outsourced the villain. It would be like Eobard Thawne was responsible for Joker's fixation or saying Teth-Adam influenced Lex Luthor in the main universe. It would be best if that wasn't done with heroes like Spider-man.
    I mean that was Spencer's attempt at explaining why in the **** hell Mephisto would even care about Spidey that much, I think it was a bad idea but his heart was in the right place at least, can't say the same about anyone else at Marvel right now working with ASM, Wells is using it for his mystery box angst porn right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  4. #49
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    ...I don't see how the retcon would be a good idea even if everyone else reacted properly, it'd just have made Norman into Mephisto's goon, and that's the whole problem, Mephisto shouldn't have such a reach lol.
    Yeah, all the retcon did for me is make it so I have zero interest in Norman's character moving forward. It ruined his story by taking away his agency, IMO. Before I was a bit tired of Norman now he has, to borrow a Pro Wrestling term, go away heat with me because of his Mephisto connection (a character who I truly despise due to being nothing more than a lazy plot device rather than a fully realized character).....

    Edit - This is a terrible example of the tired old trope "The Man Behind The Man" -

    "When a character previously positioned as a Big Bad is revealed in fact to be either the flunky, puppet, or spokesman for a higher authority. Note that gender of either is not relevant, so this trope could include The Woman Behind the Man, The Woman Behind the Woman, or The Man Behind the Woman."
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-19-2022 at 10:00 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I like your theory on Ghost Goblin, Tabs.
    That is genuinely flattering. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    He got the benefit of disappearing for a while then doing something big when he returned, killing Gwen and the horrible retcon that made him Clone Saga's mastermind, yeah lol.
    Technically, Osborn didn't mastermind it. The green goblin Xanatos Speed Chess'd his way around making the most of plots already in place. Fans just remember him as the architect and give him and lazy writing undeserved credit. If the Clone Saga was the only thing that coincidentally worked in his favor that would be one thing but that man's luck was borderline supernatural.

    I mean that was Spencer's attempt at explaining why in the **** hell Mephisto would even care about Spidey that much, I think it was a bad idea but his heart was in the right place at least, can't say the same about anyone else at Marvel right now working with ASM, Wells is using it for his mystery box angst porn right now.
    I agree that Spencer's heart was in the right place. Editorial should have stopped him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Yeah, all the retcon did for me is make it so I have zero interest in Norman's character moving forward. It ruined his story by taking away his agency, IMO. Before I was a bit tired of Norman now he has, to borrow a Pro Wrestling term, go away heat with me because of his Mephisto connection (a character who I truly despise due to being nothing more than a lazy plot device rather than a fully realized character).....

    Edit - This is a terrible example of the tired old trope "The Man Behind The Man" -
    I stopped caring about Norman Osborn as anything other than an extension of Peter Parker around Dark Reign. No Way Home reminded me I actually used to enjoy this villain and now you all get to deal with me occasionally complaining about it. I'm very sorry about this unwanted outcome.
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-20-2022 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Yeah, all the retcon did for me is make it so I have zero interest in Norman's character moving forward. It ruined his story by taking away his agency, IMO. Before I was a bit tired of Norman now he has, to borrow a Pro Wrestling term, go away heat with me because of his Mephisto connection (a character who I truly despise due to being nothing more than a lazy plot device rather than a fully realized character).....

    Edit - This is a terrible example of the tired old trope "The Man Behind The Man" -

    "When a character previously positioned as a Big Bad is revealed in fact to be either the flunky, puppet, or spokesman for a higher authority. Note that gender of either is not relevant, so this trope could include The Woman Behind the Man, The Woman Behind the Woman, or The Man Behind the Woman."
    That cliché can work under the right circumstances, like how Freeza was "the man behind the man" for Vegeta, the problem is, Norman has been established for way too long to be his own thing, Mephisto getting involved in ASM only happened in OMD, and even if we ignore how much of a terrible story OMD is, it's still a dumb idea to make Mephisto be so involved with Norman and Harry...

    I mean ****, Harry going to hell and getting butthurt at Peter for reasons and resurrected with demonic powers, the only connection with Mephisto would be Harry ending up in his realm, but that's it, dragging Norman into this and making him be the reason Norman is GG is just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Technically, Osborn didn't mastermind it. The green goblin Xanatos Speed Chess'd his way around making the most of plots already in place. Fans just remember him as the architect and give him and lazy writing undeserved credit. If the Clone Saga was the only thing that coincidentally worked in his favor that would be one thing but that man's luck was borderline supernatural.
    I mean he did **** like telling that Trainer guy to mess with Jackal's test results just because, took over Scrier group and manipulated Judas Traveler, he's the mastermind because of retcons but that nonsense in universe made him into one lol.

    After this, his return developed him some more, which isn't that difficult considering the very personal connection he has with Spidey.

    I agree that Spencer's heart was in the right place. Editorial should have stopped him.
    If Spider-Man editorial got in the way it'd probably be even worse, those guys are actively mean spirited.

    I stopped caring about Norman Osborn as anything other than an extension of Peter Parker around Dark Reign.
    Huh? In Dark Reign he didn't even care about Spidey that much, much less being an extension of Spidey, whatever that means.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  7. #52
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That cliché can work under the right circumstances, like how Freeza was "the man behind the man" for Vegeta, the problem is, Norman has been established for way too long to be his own thing, Mephisto getting involved in ASM only happened in OMD, and even if we ignore how much of a terrible story OMD is, it's still a dumb idea to make Mephisto be so involved with Norman and Harry...

    I mean ****, Harry going to hell and getting butthurt at Peter for reasons and resurrected with demonic powers, the only connection with Mephisto would be Harry ending up in his realm, but that's it, dragging Norman into this and making him be the reason Norman is GG is just silly....
    Very true, it is a perfect example of the "Outside-Context Problem" a twist that makes zero sense in-universe if one uses long established history. -

    "The Outside Context Problem is, quite simply, a curveball that no one saw coming; more strictly, it is a curveball that nobody could possibly have seen coming because it grossly violates in-universe lore."
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-19-2022 at 10:44 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Very true, it is a perfect example of the "Outside-Context Problem" a twist that makes zero sense in-universe if one uses long established lore -

    "The Outside Context Problem is, quite simply, a curveball that no one saw coming; more strictly, it is a curveball that nobody could possibly have seen coming because it grossly violates in-universe lore."
    Even aside from that and how it undermines Norman, it also has the problem of making the world smaller.

    A problem I have with Young Justice's season 4 is how stuff is overly connected with Vandal Savage, season 3 established that Meta-Gene came from him, that, is alright, I'm not sure if the comics ever explained where Meta-Gene comes from, but Vandal being the first one to have it is alright, then comes season 4, which explains that Homo Magi are humans who can use magic, they come from Vandal too, and then we have Atlanteans, who originally were Homo Magi before Atlantis was sunk, who sunk Atlantis? Klarion, under Vandal's suggestion.

    So Meta-Humans, Homo Magi and Atlanteans come from Vandal, and he's the reason Atlantis was sunk, it's so, suffocating to interconnect stuff like this.

    Mephisto having such a presence in ASM suddenly makes the world smaller because this guy, is the reason Norman became GG, he's the guy who "cursed" Harry, it's also because of him the Kindred nonsense happened.

    If Mephisto's involvement with Harry was limited to Kindred alone, that would be fine, because Harry's past actions would still be consequences of Norman's **** ups and Harry's own **** ups, but now there's Mephisto's hand too with him being implied to have influenced stuff.

    Also come to think of it, Marvel had a weird habit of making stuff become more connected with one being for the last years, we had Knull, in which everything Symbiote related came from him, including their weakness for fire and sonic (Ancient memory from when he created 'em or somethin'), The One Below All, is what powers up Gamma beings, I think Aaron decided to say Mephisto has been tormenting Avengers for years (I remember seeing a panel that suggested he was the reason Hulk fucked off from the Avengers), and now Mephisto being the guy behind Osborns... Great...

    TOBA unlike the rest works fine, Knull feels suffocating because everything symbiote is him and he was too much a part of Cates' Venom run, TOBA is just a convenient explanation for the more supernatural aspects of Hulk, he was used to expand Hulk related stuff, Knull with Venom and Mephisto with Osborns actively suffocated the plot while not adding much, if anything at all besides "I was behind this, that was me!".
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I mean he did **** like telling that Trainer guy to mess with Jackal's test results just because, took over Scrier group and manipulated Judas Traveler, he's the mastermind because of retcons but that nonsense in universe made him into one lol.
    Favorite quote from this: http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot...3/part-33.html
    This special issue ends with Bob Harras returning to find that no one has any idea on how to end the storyline. He tells the staff he doesn't care if they drown in paper as long as the Clone Saga is resolved by the end of the day. Someone mentions that the pressure must be getting to Bob since he's acting irrational, manic, insane: sort of like the Green Goblin. Then Ralph Macchio says, "You know…we may have something there."
    That's one thing out of a sprawling event. The Jackal still had his plans, and Osborn sabotaged them. Things didn't always go according to what Osborn wanted, even before crossing paths with Peter Parker. I could have done without him being responsible for Aunt May's faked death, but they would never let that stick.
    Bob Harras became concerned that Norman was going to become too all-encompassing a figure in Spider-Man's universe. Bob issued an edict: "I don't want the Spider-Man books to become too Norman-centric. I don't want Norman to have been responsible for everything that's ever happened in Peter's life since 1972."
    I totally agreed with that edict. I didn't think Norman should be some god-like figure who controlled every facet of Peter's life from afar. I felt there were certain things he did control, and other things he did not. At times, fate would intervene and end up working in his favor, or fate would work against him and he would have to adapt. That's how I approached THE OSBORN JOURNAL when I began putting it together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    After this, his return developed him some more, which isn't that difficult considering the very personal connection he has with Spidey.
    This is tempting me to write a list of things that accidentally helped him before and completely unrelated to Clone Saga and it's aftermath that I'll constantly come back to edit. Hobgoblin, his identity, quite a few things, really.

    If Spider-Man editorial got in the way it'd probably be even worse, those guys are actively mean spirited.
    Lol. This is so painfully true! Fine then. A competent editorial would have fixed it.

    Huh? In Dark Reign he didn't even care about Spidey that much, much less being an extension of Spidey, whatever that means.
    When I talk about an extension, I mean how villains bring out certain emotional responses in their heroes that will be explored in the story. They are also a representation of their heroes in crossover events. You can often tell which franchise comics value more when and how a villain bests another villain in a conflict during those crossovers. If victory is attainable, the better-respected one will win, and if it's not, they'll lose gracefully.

    Lily Hollister. That complaint I have about Slott's Spider-man as the incel-defined Chad merged with Charlie Brown? Norman Osborn was that to the n-th degree in Dark Reign. There were good moments, but Osborn's involvement was more successful in memory than deserved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    TOBA unlike the rest works fine, Knull feels suffocating because everything symbiote is him and he was too much a part of Cates' Venom run, TOBA is just a convenient explanation for the more supernatural aspects of Hulk, he was used to expand Hulk related stuff, Knull with Venom and Mephisto with Osborns actively suffocated the plot while not adding much, if anything at all besides "I was behind this, that was me!".
    The One Below All was neat. Not exactly a full character in its own right but it didn't need to be and the story benefited from it. I love cosmic horror monsters.
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-20-2022 at 10:43 AM.

  10. #55
    Spectacular Member Kanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    There's not much on Ghost Goblin/Norman Osborn. Osborn could have given up his son for money. Later, when Osborn discovers what he did, he blames the societal expectations that influenced him to make that decision and destroys his entire universe. In a ultimate monkey's paw reversal, Mephisto stops Mayday from ever being born but is killed in that universe by his "creation" in revenge. Afterward, the goblin hooks up with the Multiversal masters of evil and continues his rampage in universes where Harry Osborn is dead in an omnicidal suicide run, forcing others to take Osborn out. In this scenerio, Osborn won't do it himself because the goblin considers suicide the coward's way out. This is me just me spit-balling. I don't know what they're doing with the ghost rider hybrid.

    In 616, this retcon means the Osborns are quirky miniboss mooks. Norman's actions brought about what Mephisto wanted to avoid. Harry made it obvious he didn't want to hurt Mary Jane and didn't do much to stop Peter and MJ from getting together. They're Mephisto's Team Rocket. The twins are the talking cat.
    In Aaron's Avengers, there was a hint that Howard Stark sold his son's soul to Mephisto, but then it was revealed that this is Howard from an alternate universe. This is strange, since it was originally supposed to be Howard from Earth-616, but perhaps Aaron changed his plans. Your theory can become reality. Maybe the Norman who made the deal with Mephisto is not actually our Norman, but from an alternate universe.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    Romita's jr's inks and pencils for a Norman/Peter scene has surfaced online

    spoilers:
    looks like Peter's starting work at Oscorp
    end of spoilers
    Please give links or a source or dm

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanos View Post
    In Aaron's Avengers, there was a hint that Howard Stark sold his son's soul to Mephisto, but then it was revealed that this is Howard from an alternate universe. This is strange, since it was originally supposed to be Howard from Earth-616, but perhaps Aaron changed his plans. Your theory can become reality. Maybe the Norman who made the deal with Mephisto is not actually our Norman, but from an alternate universe.
    I have conflicting thoughts about that. I'm of the opinion that variants should be used to the minimum and I don't want that becoming a easy-out solution to bad story ideas thanks to ITSV's influence on the franchise. If Kindred involved different Osborns it would help clear Harry Osborn's name and reaffirm his father's bad behavior is his own. The retcon would need to emphasize that Sins Past is still not canon, otherwise it will become a meme and some well-meaning writer will try fixing it again.

    I think I might like "I lied" more?
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-20-2022 at 12:42 PM.

  13. #58
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    That is genuinely flattering. Thanks.

    Technically, Osborn didn't mastermind it. The green goblin Xanatos Speed Chess'd his way around making the most of plots already in place. Fans just remember him as the architect and give him and lazy writing undeserved credit. If the Clone Saga was the only thing that coincidentally worked in his favor that would be one thing but that man's luck was borderline supernatural.


    I agree that Spencer's heart was in the right place. Editorial should have stopped him.

    I stopped caring about Norman Osborn as anything other than an extension of Peter Parker around Dark Reign. No Way Home reminded me I actually used to enjoy this villain and now you all get to deal with me occasionally complaining about it. I'm very sorry about this unwanted outcome.
    You're very welcome, and as someone who also enjoyed Norman/Green Goblin in No Way Home, I feel your pain.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Lol. This is so painfully true! Fine then. A competent editorial would have fixed it.
    If we had a competent editorial we wouldn't have to think about fixing **** like OMD since that wouldn't have happened lol.

    Or if it did it wouldn't take 15 years to fix it...

    ****, so annoying how Marvel respects OMD so much.

    When I talk about an extension, I mean how villains bring out certain emotional responses in their heroes that will be explored in the story. They are also a representation of their heroes in crossover events. You can often tell which franchise comics value more when and how a villain bests another villain in a conflict during those crossovers. If victory is attainable, the better-respected one will win, and if it's not, they'll lose gracefully.
    I mean Spidey was barely involved in Dark Reign too, Norman was doing his best impersonation of Lex Luthor at the time (A few years before that we had Lex as president).

    The One Below All was neat. Not exactly a full character in its own right but it didn't need to be and the story benefited from it. I love cosmic horror monsters.
    The point was for him to have character anyways, as TOAA's exact opposite, he's little more than a destructive force of nature without a real personality.

    At least the story doesn't pretend he's more than that, Brian Banner specifically points out that TOBA has no mind of its own, he uses people like masks.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    You're very welcome, and as someone who also enjoyed Norman/Green Goblin in No Way Home, I feel your pain.
    It turns out that the delay made the movie release at a good time. Cinematic universe developed some decent projects recently. Call me naive, but it's giving me hope that 'Freshman year' might help flesh out MCU Peter Parker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    If we had a competent editorial we wouldn't have to think about fixing **** like OMD since that wouldn't have happened lol.
    Or if it did it wouldn't take 15 years to fix it…
    ****, so annoying how Marvel respects OMD so much.
    True enough. That's the trouble with echo chambers. Editorial thinks they know what's best for Spider-man and ignore anyone who tells them otherwise. Sometimes it's for the better. Other times, it's OMD.
    am-i-out-of-touch-no-it-is-the-children-who-are-wrong-principal-skinner-1433208130.jpg
    I mean Spidey was barely involved in Dark Reign too, Norman was doing his best impersonation of Lex Luthor at the time (A few years before that we had Lex as president).
    Or Marvel decompressed Earth X(published 1999) Norman Osborn. An alien invasion used to Osborne's advantage, cooperation with Stark, hero purges, dead Punisher, Peter Parker publicly unmasked with a news agency involved, disillusioned Captain America, fake Avengers, etc. Quite a few things are present, even if the circumstances are different. Lex Luthor can try copyrighting "A morally corrupt American business owner with an interest in science goes into politics" all he likes, but the caricatures of Herbert Hoover had him beat by a few decades. Whether the real life person fit, is up to the historians.

    To use Occam's razor, the most simple answer is often the best one. It can't get more straightforward than putting an evildoer in one of Tony's suits. We saw so little of Spider-man because Peter Parker wasn't the reason Marvel borrowed his villain. Marvel needed a moderately prominent antagonist who could be used as a straw character to make Tony Stark look more reasonable when they discovered they f***ed up the hero's characterization after the civil war event.

    The point was for him to have character anyways, as TOAA's exact opposite, he's little more than a destructive force of nature without a real personality.
    At least the story doesn't pretend he's more than that, Brian Banner specifically points out that TOBA has no mind of its own, he uses people like masks.
    Empty, hollowed-out, and horrific, a destructive id seeks out an ego, consuming individuals from the inside out. Creation and unimaginable destruction are intrinsically linked, and the reason gamma tests have unsettling results. As I said, it's a nifty cosmic horror entity. It succeeded not for a character, but for a narrative, which was a good idea.
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-21-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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