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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Yeah, all the retcon did for me is make it so I have zero interest in Norman's character moving forward. It ruined his story by taking away his agency, IMO. Before I was a bit tired of Norman now he has, to borrow a Pro Wrestling term, go away heat with me because of his Mephisto connection (a character who I truly despise due to being nothing more than a lazy plot device rather than a fully realized character).....

    Edit - This is a terrible example of the tired old trope "The Man Behind The Man" -

    "When a character previously positioned as a Big Bad is revealed in fact to be either the flunky, puppet, or spokesman for a higher authority. Note that gender of either is not relevant, so this trope could include The Woman Behind the Man, The Woman Behind the Woman, or The Man Behind the Woman."
    ah a kishimoto classic
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  2. #62
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    I think Norman should have stayed dead after ASM 122. Harry and the Hobgoblin were more interesting than Norman 2.0. Norman became a Joker type villain in the Spidey comics after his return and a Lex Luther type in the non-Spidey titles, instead of portraying him as he originally was: A man with a split personality who didn't realize the evils he committed as the Green Goblin.

  3. #63
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    It turns out that the delay made the movie release at a good time. Cinematic universe developed some decent projects recently. Call me naive, but it's giving me hope that 'Freshman year' might help flesh out MCU Peter Parker.


    True enough. That's the trouble with echo chambers. Editorial thinks they know what's best for Spider-man and ignore anyone who tells them otherwise. Sometimes it's for the better. Other times, it's OMD.
    Attachment 121268

    Or Marvel decompressed Earth X(published 1999) Norman Osborn. An alien invasion used to Osborne's advantage, cooperation with Stark, hero purges, dead Punisher, Peter Parker publicly unmasked with a news agency involved, disillusioned Captain America, fake Avengers, etc. Quite a few things are present, even if the circumstances are different. Lex Luthor can try copyrighting "A morally corrupt American business owner with an interest in science goes into politics" all he likes, but the caricatures of Herbert Hoover had him beat by a few decades. Whether the real life person fit, is up to the historians.

    To use Occam's razor, the most simple answer is often the best one. It can't get more straightforward than putting an evildoer in one of Tony's suits. We saw so little of Spider-man because Peter Parker wasn't the reason Marvel borrowed his villain. Marvel needed a moderately prominent antagonist who could be used as a straw character to make Tony Stark look more reasonable when they discovered they f***ed up the hero's characterization after the civil war event.


    Empty, hollowed-out, and horrific, a destructive id seeks out an ego, consuming individuals from the inside out. Creation and unimaginable destruction are intrinsically linked, and the reason gamma tests have unsettling results. As I said, it's a nifty cosmic horror entity. It succeeded not for a character, but for a narrative, which was a good idea.
    Good use of the Principal Skinner meme there. As for Norman Osborn vs. Lex Luthor, technically, Osborn was doing the "corrupt corporate executive turned outright supervillain" thing at least two decades before Lex, since Lex was only revamped into that after the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths rebooted the DC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demoslider View Post
    I think Norman should have stayed dead after ASM 122. Harry and the Hobgoblin were more interesting than Norman 2.0. Norman became a Joker type villain in the Spidey comics after his return and a Lex Luther type in the non-Spidey titles, instead of portraying him as he originally was: A man with a split personality who didn't realize the evils he committed as the Green Goblin.
    Funny enough, Norman 2.0 was basically the Joker if he had a day job, and that day job was being post-Crisis Lex Luthor.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #64
    Spectacular Member Kanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demoslider View Post
    I think Norman should have stayed dead after ASM 122. Harry and the Hobgoblin were more interesting than Norman 2.0. Norman became a Joker type villain in the Spidey comics after his return and a Lex Luther type in the non-Spidey titles, instead of portraying him as he originally was: A man with a split personality who didn't realize the evils he committed as the Green Goblin.
    He never had a split personality, he had amnesia. It's not the same.
    Also he did evil before being the Green Goblin. Framed Mendel Stromm in the Lee/Ditko run.
    Last edited by Kanos; 05-21-2022 at 10:05 PM.

  5. #65
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    ..*****ny enough, Norman 2.0 was basically the Joker if he had a day job, and that day job was being post-Crisis Lex Luthor.
    Thanks, this was one of the best laughs I've had in years.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #66
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Thanks, this was one of the best laughs I've had in years.
    You're very welcome. Glad I could brighten your day.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    To use Occam's razor, the most simple answer is often the best one. It can't get more straightforward than putting an evildoer in one of Tony's suits. We saw so little of Spider-man because Peter Parker wasn't the reason Marvel borrowed his villain. Marvel needed a moderately prominent antagonist who could be used as a straw character to make Tony Stark look more reasonable when they discovered they f***ed up the hero's characterization after the civil war event.
    I still find it amazing that Marvel non-ironically thought that saying Stark was right during Civil War was a good idea.

    Hell, in Civil War II, when he's actually right, he's an unlikable douchebag too, automatically antagonizing Carol, kidnapping Dude to prove he was right, being an out of control *******... You can say that Carol was worse, but only barely lol.

    And then Bendis came up with this bullshit so him and Carol can be friends later:



    Like, yeah...

    Not an actual page, but the third panel is accurate enough to what Civil War II says anyways.

    Empty, hollowed-out, and horrific, a destructive id seeks out an ego, consuming individuals from the inside out. Creation and unimaginable destruction are intrinsically linked, and the reason gamma tests have unsettling results. As I said, it's a nifty cosmic horror entity. It succeeded not for a character, but for a narrative, which was a good idea.
    There are types of villains who don't need actual characterization, just what they do is enough to motivate and develop everything else, like Fire Lord Ozai from Avatar, TOBA is a villain like that, so yeah, he works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    ah a kishimoto classic
    Good thing it didn't go as far as Kishimoto, I mean ****, Pain is behind Akatsuki, but actually, Obito is behind Pain and Akatsuki, but actually, Madara is behind Obito, but actually, Black Zetsu is behind Madara, but actually, Kaguya is behind Black Zetsu.

    It's surprising Boruto didn't say someone else was behind Kaguya, though other relative of hers' are why she wanted an army to begin with, so that's close enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demoslider View Post
    I think Norman should have stayed dead after ASM 122. Harry and the Hobgoblin were more interesting than Norman 2.0. Norman became a Joker type villain in the Spidey comics after his return and a Lex Luther type in the non-Spidey titles, instead of portraying him as he originally was: A man with a split personality who didn't realize the evils he committed as the Green Goblin.
    Him being an evil businessman is closer to how Ditko characterized Norman, even if it misses a point here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, Norman 2.0 was basically the Joker if he had a day job, and that day job was being post-Crisis Lex Luthor.
    Hah, that's really accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Okay, ngl, that 'goblin spidey suit' got a real laugh out of me. I love it.

  9. #69
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    In my discussions with Romita, I learned something of why Steve Ditko left Marvel. It seems that when he started out, Ditko was bascially an amateur, with little confidence in himself. Stan Lee convinced Ditko that he was a good artist, that he should stick it out. Ditko became convinced. He began to slack off his direct cotnact with Lee, until he never came to the Bullpen anymore. Then, he didn’t feel like doing the story the way Stan wanted it, he did it his way…That’s how Ditko began getting credited as plotting the stories. By the way, the choice of Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin was Ditko’s. Lee was going to have GG revealed to be Ned Leeds, but Ditko was too fond of Ned, so he drew the mags so that Osborn HAD to be the Goblin.
    https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com...by-j-ballmann/

  10. #70
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    And then Leeds, two decades later, was the fall guy for the Green Goblin's successor, the Hobgoblin. Interesting twist there.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #71
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    It was better for it too…after Foswell, the Daily Bugle would become a crime factory. We’d have to worry about Betty Brant and Robbie Robertson dabbling in crime.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Oh hey is that Jack? Y'know, the one who went by Revolutionary_Jack here?

    Either way, weird that Ditko would be fond of Ned, he barely did anything whenever he showed in his run besides being Betty's perfect and boring boyfriend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    It was better for it too…after Foswell, the Daily Bugle would become a crime factory. We’d have to worry about Betty Brant and Robbie Robertson dabbling in crime.
    Not to mention that it's silly for a random reporter like Ned Leeds having the cash to be able to get all that tech.

    Then again, it was silver age so maybe he'd be excused to have come up with it on his own, like how Vulture did so with his own wings despite looking like he was just some thief lol.

    At least when he was "revealed" to be Hobgoblin it made more sense in that part, since he just happened to find the tech, the biggest problem was him managing to modify the Goblin Serum to avoid insanity, but even then, Roderick managing to do so made no damn sense too.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demoslider View Post
    I think Norman should have stayed dead after ASM 122. Harry and the Hobgoblin were more interesting than Norman 2.0. Norman became a Joker type villain in the Spidey comics after his return and a Lex Luther type in the non-Spidey titles, instead of portraying him as he originally was:
    I think Norman Osborn has always been both? Osborn was not a very nice business parter and tried using psychedelic pumpkins to attack Spidey mentally. Osborn had more depth once but shedding light on Harry Osborn's backstory rolled that characterization long before he returned. Writers chose to embrace that change.
    A man with a split personality
    Still is. Depending on the writer. What people often don't realize is DID is on a spectrum and doesn't always result in amnesia.







    I can't fault Gerry Conway for killing Norman Osborn. From the perspective of a man living in the 70s, the original green goblin had potential but was barely a character on page. So, Conway used him to rectify certain inequities of the romantic persuasion. As someone benefiting from modern information, I think it would have been a waste of a good villain and occasional extended cast member to keep him dead.
    Edit: I forgot to mention, "Split personality" has fallen out of favor in the medical community as understanding of the disorder improves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Good use of the Principal Skinner meme there. As for Norman Osborn vs. Lex Luthor, technically, Osborn was doing the "corrupt corporate executive turned outright supervillain" thing at least two decades before Lex, since Lex was only revamped into that after the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths rebooted the DC Universe.
    The Simpsons will never die. That is a threat and a promise.
    Donald Trump influencing Lex Luthor's turn to business tycoon was so much more funny before Trump was elected President.
    Funny enough, Norman 2.0 was basically the Joker if he had a day job, and that day job was being post-Crisis Lex Luthor.
    It's a neat coincidence that Ditko's Norman looks so much like Albert Camus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I still find it amazing that Marvel non-ironically thought that saying Stark was right during Civil War was a good idea.

    Hell, in Civil War II, when he's actually right, he's an unlikable douchebag too, automatically antagonizing Carol, kidnapping Dude to prove he was right, being an out of control *******... You can say that Carol was worse, but only barely lol.

    And then Bendis came up with this bullshit so him and Carol can be friends later.
    Thanks for showing that panel page. I needed a laugh. Have you watched D+ Moon Knight? Ammit and Carol would have much to talk about. I can sympathize with Tony Stark being upset after what Thanos did to Rhodey but that writing does him no favors. Stop writing heroes as villains 2023.
    Last edited by Tabs; 05-28-2022 at 05:36 PM.

  14. #74
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    I think Norman Osborn has always been both? Osborn was not a very nice business parter and tried using psychedelic pumpkins to attack Spidey mentally. Osborn had more depth once but shedding light on Harry Osborn's backstory rolled that characterization long before he returned. Writers chose to embrace that change.

    Still is. Depending on the writer. What people often don't realize is DID is on a spectrum and doesn't always result in amnesia.







    I can't fault Gerry Conway for killing Norman Osborn. From the perspective of a man living in the 70s, the original green goblin had potential but was barely a character on page. So, Conway used him to rectify certain inequities of the romantic persuasion. As someone benefiting from modern information, I think it would have been a waste of a good villain and occasional extended cast member to keep him dead.
    Edit: I forgot to mention, "Split personality" has fallen out of favor in the medical community as understanding of the disorder improves.


    The Simpsons will never die. That is a threat and a promise.
    Donald Trump influencing Lex Luthor's turn to business tycoon was so much more funny before Trump was elected President.

    It's a neat coincidence that Ditko's Norman looks so much like Albert Camus.

    Thanks for showing that panel page. I needed a laugh. Have you watched D+ Moon Knight? Ammit and Carol would have much to talk about. I can sympathize with Tony Stark being upset after what Thanos did to Rhodey but that writing does him no favors. Stop writing heroes as villains 2023.
    Ha, yes, though definitely cosigning you on the last part.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #75
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    When it comes to Norman's (and by extension Harry's) hairstyle, has any artist attempted to draw it where it actually looks like actor Joseph Cotten's hair instead of directly copying Ditko's attempt to make it look like that?

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