Pre-Crisis Darkseid vs 616-Marvel Earth

[Cody]

May be? The New Avengers reveal, back during the 99% time of his career people widely know him as being a total basket case, was all about how he repeatedly, globally mindwiped Marvel Earth in a cycle (pointed out by the Illuminati Mister Fantastic/Professor X exchange) but still had it in him to slip calls for help, despite a lack of psionic training, to throw that off, including subconsciously feeding his life experiences to a comic writer, and despite Mastermind (probably most famous for the Dark Phoenix Saga where he messed with Jean) intending to erase Sentry completely and operating at the time on a "the stronger the mind, the easiest for me to manipulate with illusions" basis.

I was just pointing out odd inaccuracies, which should be understandable to exist at this point for a character people are game to ackownowledge as mega-powerful, but who literally has dozens of powers now and for which even writers seem to want to dance around status quos for.

Sorry to interrupt any convos.

This is a good point, and since Sentry has it all together now, stands to reason he can do this all on his own with zero problems now. So I don't see a mind whammy from Darkseid being applicable on Sentry.

[Slade1]

This is a good point, and since Sentry has it all together now, stands to reason he can do this all on his own with zero problems now. So I don't see a mind whammy from Darkseid being applicable on Sentry.

Does Sentry have any concrete feats of resisting PC Darkseid level TP though?

[Wildling]

This is a good point, and since Sentry has it all together now, stands to reason he can do this all on his own with zero problems now. So I don't see a mind whammy from Darkseid being applicable on Sentry.

Well it could be if the psychic might is high enough (I'm under the assumption cosmics like Odin and Galactus have minds on par with their general power level which is why someone like Professor X or Thanos wouldn't be able to challenge them) but at that point I don't see any particular advantage to mind assault as opposed to direct assault, or esoterics to contain him. Speed might be a concern, if Darkseid doesn't have speed feats or isn't handwaved Kryptonian level speed for hanging with them.

[Captain Morgan]

Hasn't he been mind controlled or otherwise turned into the disaster of the week multiple times post merger though? I'm not sure I'd say his mind is an unassailable fortress of mental health yet.

[Wildling]

Hasn't he been mind controlled or otherwise turned into the disaster of the week multiple times post merger though?

Mind controlled? Don't think so. Cranio had a best possible shot at messing with him mentally, by attacking his mind directly while inside Strange/Iron Man's Sentry World, and while mentally buffed up (upgraded to have Sentry-like flight and energy projection and muscles and stuff), and while Sentry was at the time distracted with the Avengers, and for his troubles he got swatted catatonic by Sentry immediately after when remembering Cranio was still around. Point being, at least at that time, that Sentry was not supposed to be any less formidable mentally than he was physically.

Being reversed to a villain or ticking time bomb is more of an ongoing lack of writer imagination/commitment problem regarding the guy. But even just talking the comics themselves, the Black Panter/Annihilation Scourge debacles at least this time around were originated by himself strictly, instead of let's say a Skrull triggering his Void complex or a Spider-Man villain pushing his mental buttons back in the day. He caused a localized psychic incident only due to some gradual meditation with himself, and then the Void becoming a villain again was also a personal decision that still required him and Mister Fantastic to go way out of the way for both of them. Mister Fantastic saying even his lab technology wasn't good enough to fundamentally alter Sentry, so Sentry had to travel to the Negative Zone and extendedly absorb negative energy, with a "wake up and link the Cancerverse to the Negative Zone" nasty space-ripping side effect kind of confirming the abnormal power levels or weirdness involved.

[Nik Hasta]

this might be me just not really understanding some of the things being discussed but, nothing listed above seems to suggest that telepathy on the level of "completely mind control an entire planet full of beings and turn them into foot soldiers that then sow chaos across the galaxy, while also fighting the entire Legion of Superheroes," would be /ineffective/ on Sentry.

What feats for resistance does he have?

Or, as noted in my last post in this thread, Darkseid can just timedump him and take him off the field that way.

[Cody]

this might be me just not really understanding some of the things being discussed but, nothing listed above seems to suggest that telepathy on the level of "completely mind control an entire planet full of beings and turn them into foot soldiers that then sow chaos across the galaxy, while also fighting the entire Legion of Superheroes," would be /ineffective/ on Sentry.

What feats for resistance does he have?

Or, as noted in my last post in this thread, Darkseid can just timedump him and take him off the field that way.

Well by virtue of wiping the minds of X and Strange of their memories of him against their will is something I don't see Darkseid doing, and would the time dumping really reach Sentry who is faster than DarkSeid and can just avoid it and through DS off balance with a blitz?

[Sharpandpointies]

One thing that should be brought up - a somewhat amusing issue when it comes to the Arena - is that time-dumping an immortal isn't exactly a good way to deal with them.

1. You toss them into the past. Seeing as this is BFR, and not a 10-count, the character is free to return in any length of time under their own power, if possible. Tossing them into the past means they just show up again - re-writing history - at the start of the match, sitting there and looking REALLY bored due to having waited 10 000 years or whatever for the fight to start (and possibly providing the audience with some amusement in previous fights).

2. You hurl them into the future. Now it's YOU who has to sit around and get bored as you wait for the arena to 'catch up' with them. Fight isn't over until someone can prove 'BFR, they're not coming back', and in this case they certainly ARE coming back, it's just going to take some time (how much is your own fault :).

It's ridiculous (and there should probably be special rules about it), but at the same time it does somewhat effectively simulate the idea that time-dumping an immortal is somewhat meaningless for anything other than 'shuffle them out of the way for a bit', barring sending them to the heat-death of the universe/big bang which renders them unimportant or likely dead, respectively*.

Granted, there's the whole idea of 'time-dumping someone 100 years in the future puts them waaaay outside the solar system in deep space', but that's not how time travel usually works in fiction. ^_^

* obviously there are other 'early' - and probably later - time periods that will kill someone just as dead, depending on their capacity to surviving in rather unpleasant environments.

[Sharpandpointies]

Having said all of that, I believe the Omega Effect is also something that can erase someone from the universe, so long as they aren't somehow incredibly important. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nik Hasta]

Well by virtue of wiping the minds of X and Strange of their memories of him against their will is something I don't see Darkseid doing, and would the time dumping really reach Sentry who is faster than DarkSeid and can just avoid it and through DS off balance with a blitz?

Well, firstly, that's not really psychic resistance. Secondly, while it shows he can play in the Xavier level ballpark somewhat, which is all fine and good, Darkseid is also very firmly in that ballpark, somewhere in the upper ends of it, and has way better feats for psychic offense in his catalogue than Sentry does.

In the match of feat for feat, I'll take "dominates and entire planet with no apparent effort," over "wipes memories from someone who has never actually dominated an entire planet and seems to have to work harder to get into that area,"

One thing that should be brought up - a somewhat amusing issue when it comes to the Arena - is that time-dumping an immortal isn't exactly a good way to deal with them.

1. You toss them into the past. Seeing as this is BFR, and not a 10-count, the character is free to return in any length of time under their own power, if possible. Tossing them into the past means they just show up again - re-writing history - at the start of the match, sitting there and looking REALLY bored due to having waited 10 000 years or whatever for the fight to start (and possibly providing the audience with some amusement in previous fights).

2. You hurl them into the future. Now it's YOU who has to sit around and get bored as you wait for the arena to 'catch up' with them. Fight isn't over until someone can prove 'BFR, they're not coming back', and in this case they certainly ARE coming back, it's just going to take some time (how much is your own fault .

It's ridiculous (and there should probably be special rules about it), but at the same time it does somewhat effectively simulate the idea that time-dumping an immortal is somewhat meaningless for anything other than 'shuffle them out of the way for a bit', barring sending them to the heat-death of the universe/big bang which renders them unimportant or likely dead, respectively*.

Granted, there's the whole idea of 'time-dumping someone 100 years in the future puts them waaaay outside the solar system in deep space', but that's not how time travel usually works in fiction. ^_^

* obviously there are other 'early' - and probably later - time periods that will kill someone just as dead, depending on their capacity to surviving in rather unpleasant environments.

This is all correct but this isn't an arena match. Darkseid is invading 616 Marvel Earth and has to conquer it. Throwing Sentry 10,000 years into the future makes his life a lot simpler because he can conquer the earth while Sentry is not here.

Having said all of that, I believe the Omega Effect is also something that can erase someone from the universe, so long as they aren't somehow incredibly important. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the old days, yes this is how it's kind of supposed to work. Execution was always a bit odd though.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, firstly, that's not really psychic resistance. Secondly, while it shows he can play in the Xavier level ballpark somewhat, which is all fine and good,
Darkseid is also very firmly in that ballpark, somewhere in the upper ends of it, and has way better feats for psychic offense in his catalogue than Sentry does.

In the match of feat for feat, I'll take "dominates and entire planet with no apparent effort," over "wipes memories from someone who has never actually dominated an entire planet and seems to have to work harder to get into that area,"

In fairness, wiping Strange's memories is actually outside of Xavier's range. Strange's mind is closed to Xavier. Not saying it puts him on the level of controlling three billion Daxamites whilst beating all hell out of everyone else, mind.

This is all correct but this isn't an arena match. Darkseid is invading 616 Marvel Earth and has to conquer it. Throwing Sentry 10,000 years into the future makes his life a lot simpler because he can conquer the earth while Sentry is not here.

*smacks forehead* Valid point. My brain forgot this was a scenario. ^_^

In the old days, yes this is how it's kind of supposed to work. Execution was always a bit odd though.

Inconsistency in comics, quel choc.

[Nik Hasta]

I decided to bust out my copy of the GDS just to clarify a few things.

So, a couple of things of note.

- Darkseid rocks up on Daxam and mind controls everyone. This appears to take no effort, so everything that follows is while controlling 3 billion people.
- He then teleports the planet "holding it in his mind for a moment," and switches its place with Apokalypse so it is no longer under a Red Sun.
- He then has the newly empowered Daxamites burn their entire world and reshape into a planet sized image of Darkseid's own face.
- He then does his busting of the Legion where he seems to do a combination of either specific psychic attacks or just outright warps reality (it's a little unclear) and drops/disfigures like nine members of the Legion all at once, including Saturn Girl by forcing the combined trauma and pain of the other Legionnaires through her mind.
- After this he fights the resurrected Orion, the force of them hitting each other making a great burning firepit that is roughly the size of a country. They go at it for a bit and then Darkseid goes "you're not actually Orion, just a clone I made so I unmake you," and he unmakes him.
- He's then jumped Superman and Supergirl, who have been made immune to Red Sun energy. He is unphased by their hits and pretty immediately time-dumps Superman back to the 20th Century. Supergirl punches him off the planet but he instantly Boom Tubes back and does like a torturing pain touch thing.
- He's then jumped again by the rest of the Legion who just lay into him with firepower. Amusingly, Karate Kid tries to jump kick him and Darkseid just has him bounce off what looks like some kind of energy field around his body.
- At this point, Darkseid is like "I will just kill all of you, it's fine," but sees they aren't losing hope. He then scans the galaxy and realises, in his own words, "Ah, my powers have waned over the millennia and fighting all of you caused me to lose my grip on the Daxamites and now 3 billion dudes are coming for me. Fuck this,"
- And then he teleports himself and the entire planet they were standing on away.

It is worth noting that Saturn Girl comments on the Daxamites "Darkseid sapping their will has left them confused and not as good at fighting," as the Legion is battling them. Lightning Lad is like "I mean, sure but despite that they have burned worlds and flattened armies," so make of that what you will.

So, I was mostly correct but felt it worth listing all the stuff. In terms of multi-tasking and scale, he's pretty up there.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I appreciate that when the going got tough, Darkseid got "bored" and left lol.

[Nik Hasta]

I appreciate that when the going got tough, Darkseid got "bored" and left lol.

Amusingly, Wildfire is like "We did it, we won, that guy was a punk," after he left, only to have Darkseid astral project a giant version of his face and be like "just for that, I'm cursing you all. The darkness is hungry and it will consume you nerds,"

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Amusingly, Wildfire is like "We did it, we won, that guy was a punk," after he left, only to have Darkseid astral project a giant version of his face and be like "just for that, I'm cursing you all. The darkness is hungry and it will consume you nerds,"

I can respect that honestly, that's a level of petty fitting for a big bad.