Clea - Sorcerer Supreme of the Dark Dimension - Appreciation 2022

[maryjane]

a series dedicated to Clea is something I've always wanted, but not as "Strange", it would have been better as Clea. What I do not like about this new series is the "Buffy the vampire slayer" approach to paranormal, with that ridiculous pub, the supernatural community ecc. Marvel had a more serious approach to magik in the past. I do not like her bloodthirsty attitude. I do not like her costume, a more sexy one would have been better. I do not like her look when she uses her powers, that sort of Binary outburst of energy. I hate her hairdo. GOD, I REALLY HATE THAT HAIRDO. Clea has always had a very particular hairdo, with those 2 "tufts of hairs" going up, it was quite ridiculous in Ditko interpretation, but fantastic in the Colan's one, I loved that hairdo ! without that, Clea lose something (like MJ without fringe).
And anyway, faltines are a paceful race, Umar and Dormammu were exceptions, not the normal starndard of the race.

[DigiCom]

a series dedicated to Clea is something I've always wanted, but not as "Strange", it would have been better as Clea. What I do not like about this new series is the "Buffy the vampire slayer" approach to paranormal, with that ridiculous pub, the supernatural community ecc. Marvel had a more serious approach to magik in the past.

For the record, the Bar Without Doors has been a part of Strange lore for 8 years.

[maryjane]

For the record, the Bar Without Doors has been a part of Strange lore for 8 years.

for the record... when I'm talking about "recent" things that I don't like, I mean the last 15 years or more. When I say "in the past it was better", whetever I'm talking about, I mean 70s, 80s, 90s ....not a mere "8 years ago"

[DigiCom]

for the record... when I'm talking about "recent" things that I don't like, I mean the last 15 years or more. When I say "in the past it was better", whetever I'm talking about, I mean 70s, 80s, 90s ....not a mere "8 years ago"

That's fair. For me, peak Marvel is around 1985. But if they kept telling the same stories that Stern & co. told back then, I'm sure the book wouldn't be nearly as good.

Anyway, I disagree with your opinion on Clea. While she is a bit more bloodthirsty than she should be, the fact that folks like Wong and Umar have noticed suggests it's part of the story. Otherwise, I can live with the choices Mackay & Garbett have made, because for me, THIS is "my Clea".

[Lukmendes]

Yep, I'm Swamp Thing. And I do consider him to be a horror character and less of a superhero character. I find the idea of Strange fighting monsters from other dimensions to be cosmic and not gothic, if you catch my meaning.

I mean, cosmic horror is also a thing lol.

The demonic stuff is pretty "earthly" in my opinion. Look at your avatar: I'm assuming its Hobgoblin. When I was reading about him in the 90s, he was a dude named Jason Macendale. And he was possessed by demons. So I guess he was a "horror character" who lived in Spidey's world.

He had horror elements, but I don't think he was treated that differently, he looked a bit scarier and that's it lol.

Hollywood is pretty bad at making comedies these days. I'm not asking for Dumb and Dumber levels of humor in the MCU, but I don't want them to take themselves too seriously either. I thought the MCU's "Whedon era" was its golden age. Marvel movies switched from being action movies into action comedy movies after that first Avengers movie (a transition the rest of Hollywood is making these days apparently). And AoU is a guilty pleasure of mine even though that film had a lot of problems.

At least the Avengers movie was better in tone, even if a lot of its quipping just falls flat with me.

I think time travel/multiversal stories are strange that they both elevate AND reduce stakes at the same time. Marvel should use them in moderation and execute them with deliberation, which is not happening at the moment. Clea should be a "fun" character is all I'm saying. A lot of these MCU female superheroes don't look like they're "fun" characters at all.

Well, time will tell what they'll do with her, which she looks too serious in that post credits scene, that can change afterwards.

And anyway, faltines are a paceful race, Umar and Dormammu were exceptions, not the normal starndard of the race.

Yeah, re-reading the story after knowing what the Faltine were like, the way Clea talks about "Faltine" and "warlord" sounding the same is odd.

It could make sense in case she's not aware what other Faltines besides Dormammu and Umar are like, but then Umar says this:



So it sounds like MacKay just isn't aware of what's at least their original interpretation, but who knows, maybe a comic afterwards showed 'em as bloodthirsty lol.

Checking out Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme#22, there is a detail that is easy to miss, while I don't think it means they're violent, they sound like they can be petty, considering it's said they can basically have a squabble that lasts for a thousand years 'cause of energy types:

That's fair. For me, peak Marvel is around 1985. But if they kept telling the same stories that Stern & co. told back then, I'm sure the book wouldn't be nearly as good.

Definitely, while past stories can be good, and using them as inspiration for future stories is nice, you have to move on from the past, toxic nostalgia fucks over comics, and X-Men suffered with that for a long time lol.

Anyway, I disagree with your opinion on Clea. While she is a bit more bloodthirsty than she should be, the fact that folks like Wong and Umar have noticed suggests it's part of the story.

I'm not sure about that, I only found Wong talking about the way she acts going against the standards of how Earth's Sorcerer Supreme act:



(Strange#1 vol 3).

And I didn't see Umar commenting on Clea acting differently now, save for thinking that Clea killed Strange to conquer the world lol.

While her more bloodthristy attitude can have a billion excuses, it kinda sounds like MacKay is writing Clea like she was always this way, instead of her attitude being a more recent thing.

[DigiCom]

I mean, cosmic horror is also a thing lol.



He had horror elements, but I don't think he was treated that differently, he looked a bit scarier and that's it lol.



At least the Avengers movie was better in tone, even if a lot of its quipping just falls flat with me.



Well, time will tell what they'll do with her, which she looks too serious in that post credits scene, that can change afterwards.



Yeah, re-reading the story after knowing what the Faltine were like, the way Clea talks about "Faltine" and "warlord" sounding the same is odd.

It could make sense in case she's not aware what other Faltines besides Dormammu and Umar are like, but then Umar says this:



So it sounds like MacKay just isn't aware of what's at least their original interpretation, but who knows, maybe a comic afterwards showed 'em as bloodthirsty lol.

Checking out Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme#22, there is a detail that is easy to miss, while I don't think it means they're violent, they sound like they can be petty, considering it's said they can basically have a squabble that lasts for a thousand years 'cause of energy types:

I can think of two possibilities. One, Jed is referencing the more recent story where the Faltine invaded earth (part of the Waid run), or two, Clea was referring specifically to INCARNATE Faltine like her mother and uncle. I mean, I assume she was raised to consider her people above the ordinary denizens of the Dark Dimension.

And I didn't see Umar commenting on Clea acting differently now, save for thinking that Clea killed Strange to conquer the world lol.

I read that more as "Finally, you are acting like a true daughter of mine!"

[Lukmendes]

I can think of two possibilities. One, Jed is referencing the more recent story where the Faltine invaded earth (part of the Waid run),

Huh, wasn't aware of that, at least I can see why she'd think Faltines are like Dormammu or Umar.

Still sounds odd though, Dormammu and Umar were the black sheep, unless Waid managed to make sense out of that, I'd have to check it out...

or two, Clea was referring specifically to INCARNATE Faltine like her mother and uncle. I mean, I assume she was raised to consider her people above the ordinary denizens of the Dark Dimension.

Even if that's the case, she took forever to learn that Umar is her mother, like, it was only in the 80's she learned of that.

So even if she was raised to believe Faltines are above the rest, if she wasn't included among 'em, she'd have less reasons to think of herself too highly.

Well, there's the possibility that she knew hew mother was a Faltine but didn't know it was Umar, but that would be weird, unless that was the case and I didn't find something saying that before it was revealed Umar is her mother lol.

I read that more as "Finally, you are acting like a true daughter of mine!"

Well, yeah, that's basically what she was saying, but it was her misunderstanding Clea's actions lol.

My point is that she didn't make any comments about Clea having an attitude change, she only made comments saying she thought Clea killed Strange to please her mother and conquer the world.

[Clea]

Huh, wasn't aware of that, at least I can see why she'd think Faltines are like Dormammu or Umar.

Still sounds odd though, Dormammu and Umar were the black sheep, unless Waid managed to make sense out of that, I'd have to check it out...



Even if that's the case, she took forever to learn that Umar is her mother, like, it was only in the 80's she learned of that.

So even if she was raised to believe Faltines are above the rest, if she wasn't included among 'em, she'd have less reasons to think of herself too highly.

Well, there's the possibility that she knew hew mother was a Faltine but didn't know it was Umar, but that would be weird, unless that was the case and I didn't find something saying that before it was revealed Umar is her mother lol.



Well, yeah, that's basically what she was saying, but it was her misunderstanding Clea's actions lol.

My point is that she didn't make any comments about Clea having an attitude change, she only made comments saying she thought Clea killed Strange to please her mother and conquer the world.

It's true that Clea didn't know that Umar was her mother for most of her life. She didn't know who her mother was, Faltine or not. However, it's worth remembering that she was still Dark Dimension royalty on her father's side. Her father was Orini, son of Olnar, the last legitimate Mhuruuk wizard-king ruler of the Dark Dimension. The Mhuruuk were quasi-immortal. powerful wizards who'd been ruling the Dark Dimension for tens of thousands of years. Even though Orini had been a child himself when the Faltine twins took over, he was still the last legitimate heir to the Dark Dimension throne and he was raised in the court, as was Clea herself. Clea was incredibly formidable and powerful even before she found out that she was half Faltine.

[Lukmendes]

It's true that Clea didn't know that Umar was her mother for most of her life. She didn't know who her mother was, Faltine or not. However, it's worth remembering that she was still Dark Dimension royalty on her father's side. Her father was Orini, son of Olnar, the last legitimate Mhuruuk wizard-king ruler of the Dark Dimension. The Mhuruuk were quasi-immortal. powerful wizards who'd been ruling the Dark Dimension for tens of thousands of years. Even though Orini had been a child himself when the Faltine twins took over, he was still the last legitimate heir to the Dark Dimension throne and he was raised in the court, as was Clea herself. Clea was incredibly formidable and powerful even before she found out that she was half Faltine.

Hm... Yeah, royalty status makes sense, though I'd say that Dormammu being basically worshipped like a god king would make her, and maybe her father, not think too highly of themselves (Not that this means her father is humble lol), specially since Orini looked like a lousy father as far as I've seen.

Although yeah, being raised near Dormammu and being a powerful sorceress can give her reasons to have some arrogance, I just find it odd to attribute some of those quirks of hers' to Faltine heritage (Though warlord stuff is also mentioned), and thinking of it, I don't think Strange vol 3 mentions Orini at all, even though she sometimes mentions Dormammu and Umar, which's a bit odd since, again, she only learned of Umar being her mother relatively recently, while she knew Orini was her father all along... Hell, if one doesn't know her past, they may think that Clea is full Faltine with how the other part of Clea's lineage isn't mentioned.

Also seriously:



(Strange#1 vol 3).

This contradicts what was shown about Faltines before so much lol.

If Waid's usage of Faltines retconned 'em as being Warlords, then it's more understandable (Even if it's a boring and generic way of using 'em), if not though...

Although there could be a possibility that Clea has ay, more corrupted heritage, since Dormammu's and Umar's own birth was unusual, and them being so different from the other Faltines could have genetics (for the lack of a better word for energy beings) as part of the reason, not that this would excuse them being such sadistic assholes, but anyways, this could explain why Clea has such impulses now, and maybe she thinks other Faltines are like that, and that could make it so the Faltines as a whole aren't warlords like Clea tends to imply.

You just have to ignore how Umar implies other Faltines are like her...

[Shadowcat]

That's fair. For me, peak Marvel is around 1985. But if they kept telling the same stories that Stern & co. told back then, I'm sure the book wouldn't be nearly as good.

Anyway, I disagree with your opinion on Clea. While she is a bit more bloodthirsty than she should be, the fact that folks like Wong and Umar have noticed suggests it's part of the story. Otherwise, I can live with the choices Mackay & Garbett have made, because for me, THIS is "my Clea".

That Paul Smith art. My heart goes pitter pat.

[Albert1981]

It sounds to me like we're using different definitions of horror, and yours is somewhat more restrictive than mine.

I would suggest that a useful set of terms would be those laid out by Stephen King in a Facebook post.

The 3 types of terror: The Gross-out: the sight of a severed head tumbling down a flight of stairs, it’s when the lights go out and something green and slimy splatters against your arm.

The Horror: the unnatural, spiders the size of bears, the dead waking up and walking around, it’s when the lights go out and something with claws grabs you by the arm.

And the last and worse one: Terror, when you come home and notice everything you own had been taken away and replaced by an exact substitute. It’s when the lights go out and you feel something behind you, you hear it, you feel its breath against your ear, but when you turn around, there’s nothing there…”

I don't get much pleasure from The Gross-out, and rarely enjoy The Horror, but I love a good dose of the Terror.

I got no problem with terror. It's actually a little bit more "grounded". Remember Experiment in Terror? LOVED Mancini's theme for that film:



Horror can get a little bit bloody, but I guess that's its appeal? I just don't understand why Strange fans like that shit? I mean, he's always been a PG-13 character to ME.

[Albert1981]

I mean, cosmic horror is also a thing lol.



He had horror elements, but I don't think he was treated that differently, he looked a bit scarier and that's it lol.



At least the Avengers movie was better in tone, even if a lot of its quipping just falls flat with me.



Well, time will tell what they'll do with her, which she looks too serious in that post credits scene, that can change afterwards.



Yeah, re-reading the story after knowing what the Faltine were like, the way Clea talks about "Faltine" and "warlord" sounding the same is odd.

It could make sense in case she's not aware what other Faltines besides Dormammu and Umar are like, but then Umar says this:



So it sounds like MacKay just isn't aware of what's at least their original interpretation, but who knows, maybe a comic afterwards showed 'em as bloodthirsty lol.

Checking out Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme#22, there is a detail that is easy to miss, while I don't think it means they're violent, they sound like they can be petty, considering it's said they can basically have a squabble that lasts for a thousand years 'cause of energy types:





Definitely, while past stories can be good, and using them as inspiration for future stories is nice, you have to move on from the past, toxic nostalgia fucks over comics, and X-Men suffered with that for a long time lol.



I'm not sure about that, I only found Wong talking about the way she acts going against the standards of how Earth's Sorcerer Supreme act:



(Strange#1 vol 3).

And I didn't see Umar commenting on Clea acting differently now, save for thinking that Clea killed Strange to conquer the world lol.

While her more bloodthristy attitude can have a billion excuses, it kinda sounds like MacKay is writing Clea like she was always this way, instead of her attitude being a more recent thing.

I've never really seen cosmic horror in live-action before. That could be visually interesting. I enjoy the MCU quipping. I know a lot of folks think it's been overdone, but it entertains me. I even really liked some of the jokes in last week's She-Hulk episode (I haven't laughed as much as I would have liked to watching that series thus far):

Matt Murdock: I'm here. Apologies for the tardiness, Your Honor. I had trouble finding parking. I'm just kidding. My driver got lost.

Leapfrog: Thank God! Ms. Walters, it's Leapfrog. Listen, you gotta help me. I think I'm being attacked.

Jen Walters: Legally or physically?

Leapfrog: Definitely physically. But, I mean, maybe legally, too.

Matt Murdock: Leapfrog is the bad guy here. He kidnapped Luke Jacobson. He's holding him hostage.

Jen Walters: Why didn't you tell me that before we fought?

Matt Murdock: Why didn't you ask me before trying to whoop my ass?

Jen Walters: I'm sorry that I assumed the guy dressed as the devil was the bad one.

Matt Murdock: Yeah, that's a fair point.

Jen Walters: So, are you, like, a superhero? Like the Gold Devil?

Matt Murdock: I'm Daredevil.

Jen Walters: It is very daring to use ketchup and mustard as your color scheme.

Matt Murdock: There are 25 goons in the building. Seven below us, eight in the front, and 10 in the hallway. I'll sneak in and take out the goons in the back.

Jen Walters: It'll take me 15 seconds for each one.

Matt Murdock: So, wait here until I've gotten all 10.

Jen Walters: I'm not gonna sit here for half an hour while you pick off goons one by one.

Matt Murdock: That's not how that math works out.

I thought that kind of "Whedonesque banter" was pretty funny to me. Clea should make jokes like that.

[DigiCom]

I thought that kind of "Whedonesque banter" was pretty funny to me. Clea should make jokes like that.

This is where you and I disagree, I think. That sort of "banter" is so endemic to the MCU that I've gotten a bit tired of it.

Not EVERY hero needs to be a snark machine.

[Albert1981]

This is where you and I disagree, I think. That sort of "banter" is so endemic to the MCU that I've gotten a bit tired of it.

Not EVERY hero needs to be a snark machine.

But the ones who don't tell jokes are unpopular and boring. Thor was bland as hell before Ragnarok. Although Thor 4 probably took things a little bit too far in the comedy direction, however. Disney/Marvel have been mocking sincerity for YEARS, and fans really seem to enjoy that. I always thought characters at DC and Marvel should have quipped more in the comics.

[DigiCom]

But the ones who don't tell jokes are unpopular and boring. Thor was bland as hell before Ragnarok. Although Thor 4 probably took things a little bit too far in the comedy direction, however. Disney/Marvel have been mocking sincerity for YEARS, and fans really seem to enjoy that. I always thought characters at DC and Marvel should have quipped more in the comics.