Clea - Sorcerer Supreme of the Dark Dimension - Appreciation 2022

[Clea]

This is where you and I disagree, I think. That sort of "banter" is so endemic to the MCU that I've gotten a bit tired of it.

Not EVERY hero needs to be a snark machine.

Agreed. The MCU has branded a specific style of banter and humor for the movies, which would be okay except that they've overplayed it to death and made it annoying and boring, to be honest. Not all characters share the same sense of humor. Clea, in particular, was never a snarky person. Snark and sophomoric joking don't suit her personality. I don't know how they're going to portray her in any future MCU appearances. When/if she appears again, I would hope they'd write her well.

As for Clea leaning so hard on the 'Faltine warlord' aspect of her background here in the Strange comics, I don't mind it so much. We have seen Clea transform almost entirely into an energy form a couple of times before when she's been incredibly provoked and had her mind affected in some way. She was raised by a couple of demented Faltine who do act this way all the time, so I can see why she'd fall back onto this stance in the current story. She's under incredible emotional and magical stress and she's just trying to power on through it all so that she can get Stephen back. I'm willing to sit back and see what Jed MacKay has planned. He's done a terrific job so far with Clea and with Stephen -- and Wong, and Umar, and Bats! I think he knows what he's doing.

[Albert1981]

Oh yeah, and that's fine. I actually totally get where you're coming from though. Not all of the jokes land strongly in these Marvel movies and shows. I just like humor in superhero content. I quit watching superhero stuff for a while after viewing the Amazing Spider-Man movies. Those films had like NO sense of humor, and I thought to myself, these things are taking themselves WAY too seriously. I think what you object to is CRINGE humor and I absolutely agree with your dislike of that shit as well. But Marvel movies and television series are basically action comedies nowadays. And we can largely thank Whedon, Gunn and Waititi for that. I do think the winking and smirking at audiences by these Marvel characters CAN be a bit much sometimes though. They're trying to be cute, and I know that definitely turns off audiences sometimes.

In regards to Clea, I'm actually going to say that Marvel should follow the DCEU formula. Which is strange, because I REALLY hate the WB DC movies. I dunno, I think Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman were written really well and I was engaged by their stories. I can't really say Marvel Studios has done right by the women of THEIR cinematic universe, however. They feel like action figures to me, with pretty lame-ass personalities. I know Charlize can absolutely bring a unique energy to Clea, but I wouldn't mind it if she indulges in some juvenile humor from TIME TO TIME.

[Lukmendes]

I've never really seen cosmic horror in live-action before. That could be visually interesting.

Cosmic horror is hard to adapt in general I feel, would need either a lot of special effects, or trying to make something that is terrifying without visuals, but you can get a feel that it's powerful.

Though I'm pretty sure there are a decent amount of movies with those, can't think of any though, I'm not a movie buff (Or that knowledgeable about movies in general).

But the ones who don't tell jokes are unpopular and boring.

Cap, Black Panther and Spidey do way less snark and they're pretty popular (though Spidey would be popular no matter what lol).

Even if that wasn't the case, if a character is boring because they don't snark, that is a problem with the writing itself.

Thor was bland as hell before Ragnarok. Although Thor 4 probably took things a little bit too far in the comedy direction, however. Disney/Marvel have been mocking sincerity for YEARS, and fans really seem to enjoy that. I always thought characters at DC and Marvel should have quipped more in the comics.

The problem with an overly quippy sense of humor is how it takes out the seriousness of a situation, and it can get rather annoying when jokes are made about "haha my life is weird", cool, the writer made the most obvious possible joke, and I'm supposed to think that's funny, okay...

If one enjoys that, it's fine, but characters should be different from each other, and quipping just ain't for everyone, people have different sense of humor, if they have any at all.

Agreed. The MCU has branded a specific style of banter and humor for the movies, which would be okay except that they've overplayed it to death and made it annoying and boring, to be honest. Not all characters share the same sense of humor. Clea, in particular, was never a snarky person. Snark and sophomoric joking don't suit her personality. I don't know how they're going to portray her in any future MCU appearances. When/if she appears again, I would hope they'd write her well.

As for Clea leaning so hard on the 'Faltine warlord' aspect of her background here in the Strange comics, I don't mind it so much. We have seen Clea transform almost entirely into an energy form a couple of times before when she's been incredibly provoked and had her mind affected in some way. She was raised by a couple of demented Faltine who do act this way all the time, so I can see why she'd fall back onto this stance in the current story. She's under incredible emotional and magical stress and she's just trying to power on through it all so that she can get Stephen back. I'm willing to sit back and see what Jed MacKay has planned. He's done a terrific job so far with Clea and with Stephen -- and Wong, and Umar, and Bats! I think he knows what he's doing.

Yeah I'm thinking stuff is fun so far, it's why I'm still here even lol.

I do have problems with the comic, but Clea's current attitude or the odd contradictions with Faltine stuff ain't that high on the list, the biggest problem right now is the fucking pacing... Which's to be expected with how modern comics love decompressed pacing, but, still...

Funnily enough though, I may have found out where Clea's attitude comes from:



https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...32/unknown.png



(Doctor Strange#174).



(Doctor Strange#175).

The one from Doctor Strange#174 may have been done to retcon in that Clea has magic powers, 'cause I'm pretty sure before that she either showed nothing, or nothing worth noting, but it also shows that she has little patience for people being assholes lol.

So yeah, one can make a point she went back to old habits, but amplified 'cause of grief and/or being done with villains.

[Albert1981]

Cosmic horror is hard to adapt in general I feel, would need either a lot of special effects, or trying to make something that is terrifying without visuals, but you can get a feel that it's powerful.

Though I'm pretty sure there are a decent amount of movies with those, can't think of any though, I'm not a movie buff (Or that knowledgeable about movies in general).



Cap, Black Panther and Spidey do way less snark and they're pretty popular (though Spidey would be popular no matter what lol).

Even if that wasn't the case, if a character is boring because they don't snark, that is a problem with the writing itself.



The problem with an overly quippy sense of humor is how it takes out the seriousness of a situation, and it can get rather annoying when jokes are made about "haha my life is weird", cool, the writer made the most obvious possible joke, and I'm supposed to think that's funny, okay...

If one enjoys that, it's fine, but characters should be different from each other, and quipping just ain't for everyone, people have different sense of humor, if they have any at all.



Yeah I'm thinking stuff is fun so far, it's why I'm still here even lol.

I do have problems with the comic, but Clea's current attitude or the odd contradictions with Faltine stuff ain't that high on the list, the biggest problem right now is the fucking pacing... Which's to be expected with how modern comics love decompressed pacing, but, still...

Funnily enough though, I may have found out where Clea's attitude comes from:



https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...32/unknown.png



(Doctor Strange#174).



(Doctor Strange#175).

The one from Doctor Strange#174 may have been done to retcon in that Clea has magic powers, 'cause I'm pretty sure before that she either showed nothing, or nothing worth noting, but it also shows that she has little patience for people being assholes lol.

So yeah, one can make a point she went back to old habits, but amplified 'cause of grief and/or being done with villains.

Yeah, I don't watch that many scripted movies and shows either. I'm more of a reader of books and viewer of documentaries than anything else. Hell, my passion for sports and music is far greater than my enthusiasm for films and television series. But the superhero stuff is fun because of the ridiculousness of the genre. And the MCU has done a pretty good job of making their stuff entertaining. A lot of that has to do with the humor for me. I do think Cap and Black Panther were serious, but they weren't grimdark like the more recent Superman and Batman movies. Not even close. I agree that cosmic horror is tough to do in any medium. I think that stuff is just too weird to do onscreen. I LOVED the trippy visuals of the first Strange movie though. It's hard to do magical battles in live-action. The Sword in the Stone reality warping battle was VERY cool, but that was done through animation, not in live-action.

What can I say, I LIKE banter. I don't like it when characters monologue to each other and their counterparts don't say anything. Oftentimes they're just dumping exposition or being bitchy. THAT is boring to me. And She-Hulk, Loki and the MoM had a lot of that kind of thing and I didn't like it. I enjoy the back-and-forth nature of combative "quippy" dialogue.



"Because they didn't try, Colonel. I saw it myself. Half of your men never left the trenches."

"A third of my men were pinned down because the fire was so intense."

"Don't quibble over fractions, Colonel."

OR

"They've skim milk in their veins instead of blood."

"It's the reddest milk I've ever seen. My trenches are soaked with it!"

OR

"Why not shoot the entire regiment? I'm perfectly serious."

"Well now Colonel, you're missing the point entirely. We don't want to slaughter the French Army. All we want is to do is set an example."

That kind of dialogue is a HUGE reason why Paths of Glory is in my top three favorite movies of ALL TIME. Stanley Kubrick, Calder Willingham and Jim Thompson combined hardboiled prose and black comedy to GREAT effect in that film. I wanna see more of that kind of wordplay in the MCU, not less.

[Albert1981]

I also liked the "quippy" dialogue in the Hustler as well (it's also in my list of top three movies of all time). I thought Robert Rossen, Sidney Carroll and Walter Tevis did a GREAT job with the script in that film as well. Again, there was a lot black comedy and hardboiled prose in that picture as well:



"Oh yeah, I figured that. How much?"

"Seventy-five per cent."

"For who?"

"For me."

"That's a -- that's a pretty big slice. Who do you think you are, General Motors?"

"How much you think you're worth these days? I'm puttin' up the money, I'm puttin' up the time. For that I get seventy-five per cent return on my money -- if you win."

"You think I can lose?"

"I never saw you do anything else."

OR

"I'm already rich. But I like action. That's one thing I think you're good for is action. Besides, like I say ... you got talent."


"Yeah, you already told me that. You cut that slice down to bite-size and maybe we can talk."

"No, we don't talk. I don't make bad bets. Seventy-five, twenty-five. That's it."

"Kiss off."

"Hey, wait."

"What are you gonna do about the money?"

"There are places. I'll scuffle around."

"Word's out on you, Eddie. You walk in the wrong kind of place and they'll eat you alive."

"Now, when did you adopt me?"

"I don't know when it was."

What I'm trying to say is that "quippy" dialogue is great for verbal jousting between heroes and villains (and between heroes and other heroes or villains and other villains). I'm surprised that SO many MCU fans don't enjoy it. I think it's great!

[Albert1981]

What do you guys think of Wong's sudden embrace of "Peak TV" in the MCU? I thought he was really funny in the She-Hulk series. I can relate to him more because of his personal interests as opposed to his powers. He was way too serious in the MoM. Chill Stephen and chill Wong are great. The comics should absolutely follow suit.

To DigiCom and Clea,

Do you not like Marvel "banter and humor" because you don't find them funny and amusing? Or do you not like how they are executing that stuff? Because Thor's "I'll Call The Axe When You Call The Dentist" line in L&T was pure comedy gold in my opinion (even folks in that theater burst out laughing):

[DigiCom]

What do you guys think of Wong's sudden embrace of "Peak TV" in the MCU? I thought he was really funny in the She-Hulk series. I can relate to him more because of his personal interests as opposed to his powers. He was way too serious in the MoM. Chill Stephen and chill Wong are great. The comics should absolutely follow suit.

It's consistent with his personality: In the first Strange movie, he was listening to Beyonce, after all.

(I strongly disagree that the comics should follow the movies, though. What works in one medium doesn't always work in the other.)

To DigiCom and Clea,

Do you not like Marvel "banter and humor" because you don't find them funny and amusing? Or do you not like how they are executing that stuff? Because Thor's "I'll Call The Axe When You Call The Dentist" line in L&T was pure comedy gold in my opinion (even folks in that theater burst out laughing)

No, I dislike it because, after a while, all the characters start to sound alike. One of the great strengths of the MCU over other franchises is a willingness to go for different styles of movies (e.g. 80s sci-fi or 70s political thriller). But one of the biggest weaknesses (other than an overreliance on big CGI battles in the final act) is that folks love the banter so much, the writers doubled down on it, so now almost EVERY lead character has a wry sense of humor, including ones who (in most previous depictions) tended to take things more seriously.

And then, "the comics follow suit", and we get things like Thor going from a noble warrior to a frat bro, or Stephen Strange sleeping around.

Sure, these lines are funny in isolation. But when they infect the entire universe. they reduce storytelling possibilities. As a writer, I prefer to think "what line best moves the character arc forward?", not "Which line will get the biggest laugh?"

And this is why I don't want to see either comics Clea or MCU Clea as just snark machines. They have different stories to tell: In the movie, Clea is trying to stop a world from dying, and in the comic, she's processing grief (badly). Neither of them requires her to crack jokes, and the latter rather precludes it.

[Agent Z]

But the ones who don't tell jokes are unpopular and boring.

Captain America and Black Panther don't talk like that and is still very popular. Daredevil was popular before he appeared on the She-Hulk show and he didn't talk like that either.

Thor only started being written more humorously when the writer realized Chris Hemsworth was better at comedy than in serious roles.

On the other side, we have Ultron who talks like the typical Whedon character and is considered one of the worst MCU characters.

[Agent Z]

I also liked the "quippy" dialogue in the Hustler as well (it's also in my list of top three movies of all time). I thought Robert Rossen, Sidney Carroll and Walter Tevis did a GREAT job with the script in that film as well. Again, there was a lot black comedy and hardboiled prose in that picture as well:



"Oh yeah, I figured that. How much?"

"Seventy-five per cent."

"For who?"

"For me."

"That's a -- that's a pretty big slice. Who do you think you are, General Motors?"

"How much you think you're worth these days? I'm puttin' up the money, I'm puttin' up the time. For that I get seventy-five per cent return on my money -- if you win."

"You think I can lose?"

"I never saw you do anything else."

OR

"I'm already rich. But I like action. That's one thing I think you're good for is action. Besides, like I say ... you got talent."


"Yeah, you already told me that. You cut that slice down to bite-size and maybe we can talk."

"No, we don't talk. I don't make bad bets. Seventy-five, twenty-five. That's it."

"Kiss off."

"Hey, wait."

"What are you gonna do about the money?"

"There are places. I'll scuffle around."

"Word's out on you, Eddie. You walk in the wrong kind of place and they'll eat you alive."

"Now, when did you adopt me?"

"I don't know when it was."

What I'm trying to say is that "quippy" dialogue is great for verbal jousting between heroes and villains (and between heroes and other heroes or villains and other villains). I'm surprised that SO many MCU fans don't enjoy it. I think it's great!

You are attacking a strawman. People don't have an issue with banter. They have an issue with it being overused to the point of undoing tension and every character sounding like that.

[Albert1981]

It's consistent with his personality: In the first Strange movie, he was listening to Beyonce, after all.

(I strongly disagree that the comics should follow the movies, though. What works in one medium doesn't always work in the other.)



No, I dislike it because, after a while, all the characters start to sound alike. One of the great strengths of the MCU over other franchises is a willingness to go for different styles of movies (e.g. 80s sci-fi or 70s political thriller). But one of the biggest weaknesses (other than an overreliance on big CGI battles in the final act) is that folks love the banter so much, the writers doubled down on it, so now almost EVERY lead character has a wry sense of humor, including ones who (in most previous depictions) tended to take things more seriously.

And then, "the comics follow suit", and we get things like Thor going from a noble warrior to a frat bro, or Stephen Strange sleeping around.

Sure, these lines are funny in isolation. But when they infect the entire universe. they reduce storytelling possibilities. As a writer, I prefer to think "what line best moves the character arc forward?", not "Which line will get the biggest laugh?"

And this is why I don't want to see either comics Clea or MCU Clea as just snark machines. They have different stories to tell: In the movie, Clea is trying to stop a world from dying, and in the comic, she's processing grief (badly). Neither of them requires her to crack jokes, and the latter rather precludes it.

I see your point and concede maybe it's not a great idea for the comics to ALWAYS emulate the live-action stuff. But Wong is a helluva lot more popular in the MCU than he is in the comics. And that's largely because not only is a sorcerer, but he's a bit of a joker too.

I actually liked the first two Thor movies, but Disney HAD to change things up. It was like the least well-received franchise in the MCU following the release of the Dark World. I thought Thor talking about the Asgardians eating kids in the past was fucking hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uH8tV2iPwO8

Thor: We will return with children.

(ASGARDIANS CHEERING)

Thor: Many children. And then we shall feast!

(CHEERING CONTINUES)

Not on the children.

(ASGARDIANS EXCLAIM)

We do not do that anymore. Those were dark times. Shameful times.

Now that you mention it, Daredevil did sound a LOT like Ant-Man, Nick Fury, War Machine and Doctor Strange in She-Hulk. But I don't mind it that much. If characters make me laugh, I like 'em. I don't care if they make Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer, Doctor Doom, Namor, Magneto, Kang, Mephisto and Galactus into funny dudes. Let's be honest, Disney/Marvel is probably going down that road so audiences might as well accept it.

[Albert1981]

Captain America and Black Panther don't talk like that and is still very popular. Daredevil was popular before he appeared on the She-Hulk show and he didn't talk like that either.

Thor only started being written more humorously when the writer realized Chris Hemsworth was better at comedy than in serious roles.

On the other side, we have Ultron who talks like the typical Whedon character and is considered one of the worst MCU characters.

I am absolutely willing to acknowledge that Cap and Black Panther were popular and serious. But I thought they were WAY funnier than their comic book counterparts. T'Challa was cracking plenty of jokes in What If...? Season One and it was a welcome change in my opinion. And you can clearly tell these directors and actors/actresses are having so much fun doing "superhero comedy". I mean these are characters who wear their underwear OUTSIDE of their pants, so I don't mind the banter. Is it a bit much sometimes? Yeah. But I don't want the MCU to take itself too seriously. My problem is that Marvel humor can be really CRINGE sometimes.

[Agent Z]

I am absolutely willing to acknowledge that Cap and Black Panther were popular and serious. But I thought they were WAY funnier than their comic book counterparts. T'Challa was cracking plenty of jokes in What If...? Season One and it was a welcome change in my opinion. And you can clearly tell these directors and actors/actresses are having so much fun doing "superhero comedy". I mean these are characters who wear their underwear OUTSIDE of their pants, so I don't mind the banter. Is it a bit much sometimes? Yeah. But I don't want the MCU to take itself too seriously. My problem is that Marvel humor can be really CRINGE sometimes.

T'Challa and Steve are only slightly funnier than their comic counterparts.

And again, no one is asking for the MCU to be completely serious with no humor.

[Albert1981]

T'Challa and Steve are only slightly funnier than their comic counterparts.

And again, no one is asking for the MCU to be completely serious with no humor.

Yeah, I don't think anybody HATES to laugh. I do understand why some people are mad that the MCU has been relying so much on humor lately. I think Disney saw the success of that first Avengers movie (which was really funny) and just kept that style of storytelling ever since. I'd say it's worked out pretty well (although not so much with Thor 4). I DESPISE grimdark superhero movies and shows.

[DigiCom]

Yeah, I don't think anybody HATES to laugh. I do understand why some people are mad that the MCU has been relying so much on humor lately. I think Disney saw the success of that first Avengers movie (which was really funny) and just kept that style of storytelling ever since. I'd say it's worked out pretty well (although not so much with Thor 4). I DESPISE grimdark superhero movies and shows.

It's important to remember that it's a binary situation. I am old enough to recall, when people were complaining about how dark & gritty Batman had become, the fans who turned around and said "Oh, you want it to be goofy like the TV show?"

There were (and are) other choices than "funny banter" and "grimdark".

[Albert1981]

It's important to remember that it's a binary situation. I am old enough to recall, when people were complaining about how dark & gritty Batman had become, the fans who turned around and said "Oh, you want it to be goofy like the TV show?"

There were (and are) other choices than "funny banter" and "grimdark".

Well, television in the 60s was pretty campy in general, so I get why Batman's show was like that. I love Batman, but I wish he would lighten up a bit sometimes (in the movies). Superheroes should be "fun". Edgelordy grimdark stuff is NOT that. So I'm not a fan of that kind of thing. I didn't enjoy the more "serious" James Bond movies of the past couple of decades at all. I actually skipped quite a few of them for that very reason. Actually one of the reasons why I didn't enjoy the MoM is because the jokes were too "slapsticky" for me. Stupid.