Clea - Sorcerer Supreme of the Dark Dimension - Appreciation 2022

[IonRyner]

I think Clea has such a limited footprint in the MU it would be easy to forget some of her transgressions in the past. I never did understand what writer Steve Englehart was doing when he wrote that story with Clea cheating on him with what appeared to be Ben Franklin!

oh yes I remember that, but didn't marvel kick him out and then immediately have it where she never cheated on strange? Also if she did cheat on strange then she has zero right to be mad at strange or divorce him. Fair is fair imo and they should have just worked it out but instead she just went for divorce. I didn't read the issue cause I can't find it, so this is just a guess on my part and I could be wrong. She probably didn't even think or say to sit down and try again.

Onto Clea herself, I do love the look of Clea in the mini series. Or did she always wear that same outfit? I'm trying to find the issue where we first see Clea, anyone happen to know the very first issue we see her?

[Iron Maiden]

Not my call, but if I had a say I'd drastically role back Doom's mastery of magic. He would be just under Sorcerer Supreme level, unless he has a talisman or tome of some sort in his possession that elevates him. That's still plenty dangerous and effective. I'd also impose specific rules as to how magic works for humans, including limitations on potency and effects.

But I get it: Writers at Marvel are only concerned about telling their story and there are no real constraints at all when it comes to achieving that end. If characters or environs of this fictional universe become broken as a result, so be it.

I don't agree that his skills in the mystic arts should be rolled back. Unlike Dr. Strange, it is his heritage from his mother and he was learning magic on his own at a young age using what he found in that mysterious trunk she left behind. So he had much more exposure to it than Stephen, who was a disbeliever when he first is taken in by the Ancient One. He would later turn more to science while in college but already he was mixing it with magic when he attempted to breach the veil between life and death when his device was tampered with by demonic forces (Books of Doom) or in the latest retcon in Fraction's Fantastic Four run, it was Ben who sabotaged by messing around with the set up in Victor's dorm. Personally I prefer that no one ever bring up that stupid story by Fraction again.

Doom used to be written as a dabbler in the occult. It's only relatively recently that he was reframed as being a major mystical powerhouse.

As for rules about magic... they used to be pretty well-defined. But writers kept ignoring the, and now, every few years, someone tries to "rewrite the rules of magic".

Yes, this is true. Magic is not treated as a science but then I don't think it should be. Even in the RW, different cultures have legends and lore about different kinds of magic be it legends of witchcraft, voodoo, etc.

As for Doom being a "dabbler", you can't be serious. As I said previously , it is his birthright from childhood and he was teaching himself magic at a young age. He continued to do so while spending years in self imposed exile in Tibet before transforming himself into "Doctor Doom". He's mostly self taught until he realizes he lacks the skill to rescue the soul of his mother and we see him traveling to the past to attain knowledge from past practitioners like Caligostro and Morgana Le Fey in Iron Man #149-150. He was studying magic long before Strange became involved with it as an adult when his hands became damaged. Besides, Doom was far more motivated than Stephen because it meant the redemption of his mother's soul.

Back when Strange had stepped down as Sorcerer Supreme, he feared that Doom had more knowledge than he did and take over in that role. Eventually Jeremiah Drumm takes Stephen's place but that didn't last very long as we know. From New Avengers #51, Stephen talking to Wiccan

[Iron Maiden]

oh yes I remember that, but didn't marvel kick him out and then immediately have it where she never cheated on strange? Also if she did cheat on strange then she has zero right to be mad at strange or divorce him. Fair is fair imo and they should have just worked it out but instead she just went for divorce. I didn't read the issue cause I can't find it, so this is just a guess on my part and I could be wrong. She probably didn't even think or say to sit down and try again.

Onto Clea herself, I do love the look of Clea in the mini series. Or did she always wear that same outfit? I'm trying to find the issue where we first see Clea, anyone happen to know the very first issue we see her?

check the link and you will see how the whole Clea/Ben Franklin mess had been retconned and then restored again. I don't know if I would take the Deadpool story seriously though.

[Clea]

check the link and you will see how the whole Clea/Ben Franklin mess and been retconned and then restored again. I don't know if I would take the Deadpool story seriously though.

That Clea/Franklin story was a mess. Clea has an affair with Ben Franklin the second Strange steps away for a moment! Oh, wait, no she didn't! It was an illusion cast by the evil wizard Stygyro! But wait! Franklin's ghost in a Deadpool story says it was true and Strange is still mad about it! Good grief. The Englehart story was weirdly out of character. Why would Clea have an affair with someone she'd just met the moment Strange steps out of the room? That was Englehart's last book on the series so there's no way to know what he was thinking or planning to go with that storyline. The Wolfman retcon in the very next issue felt (to me) forced and lame but was clearly intended to say, "Wow! That affair in the previous issue never happened! It was all an illusion. Let's all agree to just forget that issue ever happened and move along." The Deadpool story was poking fun at the original story and the retcon. I don't think it was meant to be taken seriously, but it was pretty funny (IMO). *shrug* I choose to laugh at the whole thing, accept Wolfman's awkward retcon and move on.

[DigiCom]

I don't agree that his skills in the mystic arts should be rolled back. Unlike Dr. Strange, it is his heritage from his mother and he was learning magic on his own at a young age using what he found in that mysterious trunk she left behind. So he had much more exposure to it than Stephen, who was a disbeliever when he first is taken in by the Ancient One. He would later turn more to science while in college but already he was mixing it with magic when he attempted to breach the veil between life and death when his device was tampered with by demonic forces (Books of Doom) or in the latest retcon in Fraction's Fantastic Four run, it was Ben who sabotaged by messing around with the set up in Victor's dorm. Personally I prefer that no one ever bring up that stupid story by Fraction again.



Yes, this is true. Magic is not treated as a science but then I don't think it should be. Even in the RW, different cultures have legends and lore about different kinds of magic be it legends of witchcraft, voodoo, etc.

As for Doom being a "dabbler", you can't be serious.

I am quite serious. Doom was treated as primarily a scientific threat for most of the 20th century. In Triumph & Torment, written in 1989, his mystic abilities were so weak that he had to strain to hear a mystic summons so powerful that it woke up Strange on the other side of the planet. The only reason he did so well in the Trial of the Vishanti is that he CHEATED. He had mystical skills, yes, but they were treated as a very minor part of his arsenal.

I'm not sure exactly when his sorcerous abilities amped to be made equal to his scientific acumen... I suspect it was during "Unthinkable" in the Waid FF run, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to verify such, nor do I wish to clutter up an Appreciation thread for another character further. So I fear we must agree to disagree.

[Clea]

...Onto Clea herself, I do love the look of Clea in the mini series. Or did she always wear that same outfit? I'm trying to find the issue where we first see Clea, anyone happen to know the very first issue we see her?

Clea was introduced in Strange Tales #126, back in 1964. For many years she appeared in a variation of this costume. Some artists made the costume more pink, sometimes red, but mainly it was shades of purple:


In the recent Death of Doctor Strange mini-series, Lee Garbett introduced this updated version of her costume. You can see her wearing it in Strange #1:


I swear I read somewhere that her current look in Strange is an homage to her appearance in the alt-universe mini-series, Earth X. (I can't find the quote right now.)

[DigiCom]

I swear I read somewhere that her current look in Strange is an homage to her appearance in the alt-universe mini-series, Earth X. (I can't find the quote right now.)

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/ma...w-doctor-doom/

"Most of it came from Alex Ross' Earth X design, which is just a very cool look overall and worth revisiting. We wanted something that called back to Stephen, and in inheriting his mantle, it felt correct."

[Iron Maiden]

That Clea/Franklin story was a mess. Clea has an affair with Ben Franklin the second Strange steps away for a moment! Oh, wait, no she didn't! It was an illusion cast by the evil wizard Stygyro! But wait! Franklin's ghost in a Deadpool story says it was true and Strange is still mad about it! Good grief. The Englehart story was weirdly out of character. Why would Clea have an affair with someone she'd just met the moment Strange steps out of the room? That was Englehart's last book on the series so there's no way to know what he was thinking or planning to go with that storyline. The Wolfman retcon in the very next issue felt (to me) forced and lame but was clearly intended to say, "Wow! That affair in the previous issue never happened! It was all an illusion. Let's all agree to just forget that issue ever happened and move along." The Deadpool story was poking fun at the original story and the retcon. I don't think it was meant to be taken seriously, but it was pretty funny (IMO). *shrug* I choose to laugh at the whole thing, accept Wolfman's awkward retcon and move on.

Englehart has a mess of a Doom appearance too in an old SVTU story that was more than a little rapey where he visited a local Latverian cottage to invoke the ancient (and mostly fictious) droit du seigneur

[Clea]

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/ma...w-doctor-doom/

"Most of it came from Alex Ross' Earth X design, which is just a very cool look overall and worth revisiting. We wanted something that called back to Stephen, and in inheriting his mantle, it felt correct."

Thanks!!!

Englehart has a mess of a Doom appearance too in an old SVTU story that was more than a little rapey where he visited a local Latverian cottage to invoke the ancient (and mostly fictious) droit du seigneur

Englehart was very good at writing trippy, cosmic stories but the Clea/Franklin thing and this rapey story are really problematic. When I first started reading comics back in the 1970s, I was often appalled at how the female characters were portrayed, and how often casual sexism and violence was used against the female characters just to land a plot point for the male leads. Did Englehart think he was being clever by referencing the droit du seigneur? That's almost entirely a myth so having Doom indulge in it as part of his historical right just looks gross and stupid. Having Clea hop in the sack with Ben Franklin the moment Stephen is out patrolling the area was gross, out of character, and stupid. There are some stories out there where the best thing to do is side-eye the author real hard but otherwise just ignore the story and move on.

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks!!!




Englehart was very good at writing trippy, cosmic stories but the Clea/Franklin thing and this rapey story are really problematic. When I first started reading comics back in the 1970s, I was often appalled at how the female characters were portrayed, and how often casual sexism and violence was used against the female characters just to land a plot point for the male leads. Did Englehart think he was being clever by referencing the droit du seigneur? That's almost entirely a myth so having Doom indulge in it as part of his historical right just looks gross and stupid. Having Clea hop in the sack with Ben Franklin the moment Stephen is out patrolling the area was gross, out of character, and stupid. There are some stories out there where the best thing to do is side-eye the author real hard but otherwise just ignore the story and move on.

Agreed. I remember reading that Dr Strange story and was pretty repulsed by it.

[Iron Maiden]

I am quite serious. Doom was treated as primarily a scientific threat for most of the 20th century. In Triumph & Torment, written in 1989, his mystic abilities were so weak that he had to strain to hear a mystic summons so powerful that it woke up Strange on the other side of the planet. The only reason he did so well in the Trial of the Vishanti is that he CHEATED. He had mystical skills, yes, but they were treated as a very minor part of his arsenal.

I'm not sure exactly when his sorcerous abilities amped to be made equal to his scientific acumen... I suspect it was during "Unthinkable" in the Waid FF run, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to verify such, nor do I wish to clutter up an Appreciation thread for another character further. So I fear we must agree to disagree.

I have copied your post and will add my reply to it in the Doom appreciation should you care to continue..

And my apologies mistress Clea for cluttering up this thread.

[captchuck]

I enjoyed the first issue. It continued nicely from the Death of Doctor Strange. It was more than I hoped for!

[Spiderfan001]

That Clea/Franklin story was a mess. Clea has an affair with Ben Franklin the second Strange steps away for a moment! Oh, wait, no she didn't! It was an illusion cast by the evil wizard Stygyro! But wait! Franklin's ghost in a Deadpool story says it was true and Strange is still mad about it! Good grief. The Englehart story was weirdly out of character. Why would Clea have an affair with someone she'd just met the moment Strange steps out of the room? That was Englehart's last book on the series so there's no way to know what he was thinking or planning to go with that storyline. The Wolfman retcon in the very next issue felt (to me) forced and lame but was clearly intended to say, "Wow! That affair in the previous issue never happened! It was all an illusion. Let's all agree to just forget that issue ever happened and move along." The Deadpool story was poking fun at the original story and the retcon. I don't think it was meant to be taken seriously, but it was pretty funny (IMO). *shrug* I choose to laugh at the whole thing, accept Wolfman's awkward retcon and move on.

They had a similar thing w/ MJ and even Jean IIRC

Best to ignore it

[williamtheday]

Old Ben was quite the player when he wasn't flying kites!

[DigiCom]

Old Ben was quite the player when he wasn't flying kites!

Apparently, that is pretty accurate, historically.