Is Emma's past getting whitewashed?

[LordUltimus]

Well, this'll end well.

So Emma has been a redeemed character, and has been for quite some time now - decades, in fact, barring some IvX shenanigans we shan't go over. Is this leaking over to her past in the Hellfire Club, retconning her previous characterization? And if so, does this reduce the effectiveness of her redemption arc by saying she wasn't as bad before?

[shooshoomanjoe]

Anyone who can murder a beautiful horse like Butter Rum is irredeemable.

[pkingdom]

Well, might as well dive headfirst into this can of worms.

I'd say yes. She's a big character example, second only to Magneto, of her misdeeds being whitewashed. Its not that she ever really redeemed herself or made amends. The stuff she did wrong just sort of gets ignored. And even her most recent villain turn, as disliked as it is, has just been ignored instead of addressed. Magento at least had moments where he acknowledged he was wrong or did bad things, but I don't think that's ever happened with Emma. Though that actually makes things worse for Magneto because he keeps flip flopping and going back on himself, which has frankly made both him and the characters who forgave him look terrible.

[The tall man]

She's a white female; the most protected, cuddled and championed demographic in all popular fiction. Of course her villainous past is going to be whitewashed away, just like Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy among others. It's not Emma's fault she broke bad, no it's all Shaw and now apparently Kingpin's. Just like it's the Joker's fault for Harley's past and greedy corporate men's fault for Ivy's, it's to be expected.

[Wolverine12]

Did something happen today in Devils Reign: X-Men that prompted this thread? I’m not buying that title so if that’s the case can someone please give me some spoilers on what happened. Emma’s past has already been changed to make it look like she wasn’t really a “bad guy” to start but more so due to circumstance. Personally I like Emma being a little amoral when needed so I hope they don’t put her too far on the side of Angels.

[Spiderfan001]

Yeah, I think it's been clear it has been for a while.It's all getting pushed under "she did what she had too for the greater good".She's more of a sleeper agent w/ the HC than a villain at this point

[Rift]

Anyone who can murder a beautiful horse like Butter Rum is irredeemable.

He's not beautiful on the inside.

[Saturius]

Did something happen today in Devils Reign: X-Men that prompted this thread? I’m not buying that title so if that’s the case can someone please give me some spoilers on what happened. Emma’s past has already been changed to make it look like she wasn’t really a “bad guy” to start but more so due to circumstance. Personally I like Emma being a little amoral when needed so I hope they don’t put her too far on the side of Angels.

She basically screwed over Nick Fury, She Hulk, Tony Stark and some others and the story and she is framing it as something she had to do cause they weren't requests but "orders" by Fisk during her time as the Hellfire Club's White Queen. So basically another instance of trying to pawn off her misdeeds onto someone else.

At this point it is getting a bit silly. And quite frankly it isn't necessary. She was evil in the past, went through something traumatic and changed for the better by choosing to be good and a hero. Why these writers constantly try to go back and slightly sanitize her past is beyond me.

[pkingdom]

She basically screwed over Nick Fury, She Hulk, Tony Stark and some others and the story and she is framing it as something she had to do cause they weren't requests but "orders" by Fisk during her time as the Hellfire Club's White Queen. So basically another instance of trying to pawn off her misdeeds onto someone else.

At this point it is getting a bit silly. And quite frankly it isn't necessary. She was evil in the past, went through something traumatic and changed for the better by choosing to be good and a hero. Why these writers constantly try to go back and slightly sanitize her past is beyond me.

Is that what happened? Everyone in that topic was being vague about it. Its kind of bizarre to me that stories simulataneously treat Emma like she's the best, but then have her easily browbeaten into screwing with good people like She Hulk (and meh people like Tony and Fury)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Lol have you only just noticed this? Where have you been since the Uncanny 500 era lol?

[Vegeta]

Well, this'll end well.

So Emma has been a redeemed character, and has been for quite some time now - decades, in fact, barring some IvX shenanigans we shan't go over. Is this leaking over to her past in the Hellfire Club, retconning her previous characterization? And if so, does this reduce the effectiveness of her redemption arc by saying she wasn't as bad before?

Not sure what's being whitewashed, they didn't retcon any of her past crimes with the Hellfire Club as something Fisk ordered her to do, they just added additional crimes committed on top of the existing ones. Some of which screwed over her fellow heroes. She was a guest at Susan Richard's birthday party or something in Marvel Knights "4." Now we see that she may have been somewhat instrumental in the Fantastic Four's financial woes. That's not going to make her anymore popular with her peers.

[Harpsikord]

On top of making her past actions the results of her connections with other - male - characters there's also that Emma tries to whitewash her long and sordid history of becoming responsible for young characters and then abusing them or doing horrible things to them. Based on the setting of this, it was either around the time that she took in and attempted to twist Firestar or after that, let alone when the New Mutants were in the care of the Hellfire Club.

Ultimately I think that apart from the Schism, IvX, and Ressurxion eras that had Emma being treated squarely as a villain through the entire time, she's been being declawed and whitewashed. When Whedon got his hands on her he immediately started to make the character that she had been up to that point into something else entirely, starting with making Kitty slowly forgive her throughout his run, and then it was something that just never stopped and became even more prevalent once Fraction took the reigns. People like to erroneously accuse Jean of only being Scott's side piece during the 90s while not recognizing that was a role that Emma actually held during the early Utopia days, and I think that her character is all the worse for it.

I saw some people say that Duggan writes the definitive Emma Frost and I just disagree so, so much. She doesn't have her claws under Duggan, he's treating her like a fancy New England soccer mom. If Shaw isn't responsible for the things that she's done Fisk is, or someone else equivalent - but interestingly he's setting her and the rest of the Quiet Council up as antagonists to his X-Men over in the flagship title. It's giving me whiplash.

Ultimately I think that her being an antagonistic member of the Quiet Council is the best position for her to be in. Emma is at her most interesting when she's at least partially antagonistic; by design, she's a heel to the narrative. She's the bad girl. The sexy femme fatale. That character that skirts the line so hard between hero and villain that you never know which side of the line she's going to fall on. What Bunn did with her in X-Men Blue, where she was a mirror image to Magneto and his polar attitudes, was perfect. The way that Hickman wrote her - in a 'protagonist' role but still with claws, antagonism, and pulling her down for measure - was a fantastic position for her. And even ten years later my favorite Emma Frost was written by Kieron Gillen, who wrote her squarely as becoming a villain again, and I'm so happy with him back in the saddle for her again.

I don't want to read an Emma Frost that's treated purely like a hero. No one should.

[superjosh]

At least you predicted this thread wouldn't go well.

Just discuss it in the character threads where other interested folks will be happy to engage!

[Hulkout42]

Well, this'll end well.

So Emma has been a redeemed character, and has been for quite some time now - decades, in fact, barring some IvX shenanigans we shan't go over. Is this leaking over to her past in the Hellfire Club, retconning her previous characterization? And if so, does this reduce the effectiveness of her redemption arc by saying she wasn't as bad before?

Well, if the Devil Reign issue that came out is to be taken as cannon now, yes...heck i freaked out when it is revealed she knew who Peter was and even was nice to him in contrast to later encounters between them were she is such a pain in the ass to him.

[Hulkout42]

Is that what happened? Everyone in that topic was being vague about it. Its kind of bizarre to me that stories simulataneously treat Emma like she's the best, but then have her easily browbeaten into screwing with good people like She Hulk (and meh people like Tony and Fury)

She also impersonated Sue Storm to take a LOT of money from the bank.