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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    If you mean the cartoon, I don't remember character designs referencing it too.
    I was making a joke about the episode that was named "Persona".

  2. #152
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    October is 'Mephisto Month'

    Welcome to October! It’s now officially, the scariest month of the year and as we all get ready to celebrate all the dastardly things that await over the next few weeks, what better way to do it than with the Prince of Lies himself, the Master of the Realm of Lost Souls, the Lord of Darkness, Mister Fisto — Mephisto!
    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...sto-month-2022

  3. #153
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    From the Mephisto: Lord of Hell article

    ONE MORE DAY AND MEPHISTO DETHRONED
    Despite his cosmic ambitions, Mephisto made his most infamous deal with Spider-Man in 2007’s “One More Day” storyline by Joe Quesada, J. Michael Straczynski, and Danny Miki. When Spider-Man unmasked himself during CIVIL WAR (2006), Kingpin ordered a hit on Peter Parker that left Aunt May fatally wounded. After exhausting all other options, Peter and Mary Jane made a deal with Mephisto to save May’s life by erasing their marriage as well as public knowledge of his secret identity in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (1999) #545. He even tortured the couple more by showing them a vision of the child they could have had together. Although Mephisto told Peter and MJ that he was interested in corrupting their uncommonly pure love, he also had a vision that their daughter would grow up to play a critical role in his final defeat.

    MEPHISTO AND THE KINDRED
    Throughout Mephisto’s imprisonment, Blaze tried to maintain order in Hell and round up demons who were loose on Earth, all while preparing to stop Mephisto’s former ally, Lilith, from taking over. Upon realizing that Lilith’s ambitions would eventually turn to Earth, Blaze reluctantly agreed to let Mephisto reclaim his Hell throne and hold Lilith off in KING IN BLACK: GHOST RIDER (2021) #1 by Ed Brisson and Juan Frigeri.

    When he discovered that Peter Parker and Mary Jane had started to reconcile in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (2018) #1 by Nick Spencer, Ryan Ottley, Humberto Ramos, and Cliff Rathburn, Mephisto turned his attention to Spider-Man once again. Additionally, Norman Osborn learned he had secretly made a deal with Mephisto decades earlier, which had resulted in his financial success and sent him on the path to becoming the Green Goblin. However, this deal cost the soul of Harry Osborn, who suffered a life filled with tragedy because of their agreement. Mephisto empowered Gabriel and Sarah Stacy – who were genetically engineered using the DNA of Norman and Gwen Stacy – with demonic abilities and Harry’s memories. For months, the Stacy siblings tortured Spider-Man both as the mysterious villain Kindred and while posing as Harry.

    As part of a complex plan to crush Spider-Man’s spirit, the Kindreds recruited villains like Mysterio and the Sin-Eater before orchestrating the events of SINISTER WAR (2021), which saw the web-slinger tangle with dozens of feuding villains. As this all played out, Doctor Strange realized Mephisto had manipulated Spider-Man’s soul and confronted the Hell Lord. Strange and Mephisto wagered on the ultimate outcome of Spider-Man’s fight with the Kindred, and Peter’s victory freed his soul, Harry’s soul, and the Stacy siblings from Mephisto.
    So the big takeaways from the official website are

    1. It is definitely Peter and MJ's daughter that will defeat Mephisto, not Mary Jane with Peter's powers
    2. Peter and MJ's love was depurified
    3. Peter's victory over the Kindred broke the deal.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    From the Mephisto: Lord of Hell article






    So the big takeaways from the official website are

    1. It is definitely Peter and MJ's daughter that will defeat Mephisto, not Mary Jane with Peter's powers
    2. Peter and MJ's love was depurified
    3. Peter's victory over the Kindred broke the deal.

    The biggest takeway is that none of that happened on the page - the Strange and Mephisto deal was for Harry's soul, not Peter's - and Marvel marketing can write all the articles they want, until it happens in the comic, it didn't happen.

    Also, it was MJ's victory, IIRC, as I believe she was Strange's champion, not Peter.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 10-01-2022 at 02:06 PM.

  5. #155
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Also, f*** Mephisto.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Also, f*** Mephisto.
    co-signed for truth
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    The biggest takeway is that none of that happened on the page - the Strange and Mephisto deal was for Harry's soul, not Peter's - and Marvel marketing can write all the articles they want, until it happens in the comic, it didn't happen.

    Also, it was MJ's victory, IIRC, as I believe she was Strange's champion, not Peter.
    Absolutely. Star Trek rules apply, if it doesn’t happen on screen or in this case the book it’s official medium, it doesn’t count. Also if the deal has been “broken” then everything still needs to go, Aunt may needs to die, MJ and Peter are either married or divorced and Peters ID is exposed again as all that was tied to a deal that no longer is in effect.

  8. #158
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dornwolf View Post
    Absolutely. Star Trek rules apply, if it doesn’t happen on screen or in this case the book it’s official medium, it doesn’t count. Also if the deal has been “broken” then everything still needs to go, Aunt may needs to die, MJ and Peter are either married or divorced and Peters ID is exposed again as all that was tied to a deal that no longer is in effect.
    Agreed, this is a cheap bs way to "fix" everything that violates in-universe logic (much like how OMD itself nerfed nearly every scientific genius or magical heavy-hitter in 616 so that only a deal with Mephisto could save an old lady from a gunshot wound, please ).
    Last edited by Celgress; 10-01-2022 at 07:53 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Also, it was MJ's victory, IIRC, as I believe she was Strange's champion, not Peter.
    It's incredibly shady of Marvel not to reference MJ's contribution at all in describing Peter's 'victory' over the Kindred, that their 'unbreakable' love was what freed Harry's soul etc, but that would hurt their present narrative.

    Maybe it's Marvel marketing trying to make sense of the editorial shifts in the sandbox for the purposes of an article making more sense than it otherwise normally would have

  10. #160
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    From the Mephisto: Lord of Hell article

    When he discovered that Peter Parker and Mary Jane had started to reconcile in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (2018) #1 by Nick Spencer, Ryan Ottley, Humberto Ramos, and Cliff Rathburn, Mephisto turned his attention to Spider-Man once again.
    That's weird, since Spencer's run as a whole talks like Kindred was doing his own thing for years.

    Even when Sinister War made it more obvious that Mephisto was involved, it looked like they were doing their own thing instead of obeying Mephisto directly (Though he certainly tortured Stacy twins to push 'em in that direction).

    Oh well, sucks Matt Ratt got banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    The biggest takeway is that none of that happened on the page - the Strange and Mephisto deal was for Harry's soul, not Peter's - and Marvel marketing can write all the articles they want, until it happens in the comic, it didn't happen.
    I also don't remember anything being said about Stacy twins' souls being freed, they only put emphasis on Harry's soul being freed.

    Like it'd make sense Strange was betting on more, but it's not said.

    The article also doesn't say anything about MJ's soul, and since Spidey's own soul was messed with because of the deal, so should MJ's.

    Also, it was MJ's victory, IIRC, as I believe she was Strange's champion, not Peter.
    Both were Strange's champions, as their bet had two champions each, Mephisto's were both Kindreds while Strange's were Spidey and MJ, but Mephisto mistakenly thought that the other one was Harry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Agreed, this is a cheap bs way to "fix" everything that violates in-universe logic (much like how OMD itself nerfed nearly every scientific genius or magical heavy-hitter in 616 so that only a deal with Mephisto could save an old lady from a gunshot wound, please ).
    Elyxir was on New York at the time, and his healing powers are really broken, he could've prevented OMD from happening if he wasn't randomly nerfed lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  11. #161
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Also, the whole "Peter's daughter was destined to one day defeat Mephisto" was a pretty blatant olive branch on Spencer's part to try and create an in-universe rationalization for why Mephisto wanted to undo the marriage. I think people holding out that there will be a canon storyline to follow up on it are on some copium.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That's weird, since Spencer's run as a whole talks like Kindred was doing his own thing for years.
    Right - and wasn't Kindred around when Mysterio was in hell? I have to admit my memory is shaky on Kindred's movements, I need to go back and reread (no matter how much the Kindred machinations made my teeth hurt at the time, by comparison to Wells's run, Spencer's time on the title was a masterpiece of tight plotting and solid character work).

    Even when Sinister War made it more obvious that Mephisto was involved, it looked like they were doing their own thing instead of obeying Mephisto directly (Though he certainly tortured Stacy twins to push 'em in that direction).
    And weren't they obeying Harry AI in the first place, not Mephisto? Is Harry AI supposed to be Mephisto? My head hurts.

    I also don't remember anything being said about Stacy twins' souls being freed, they only put emphasis on Harry's soul being freed.
    Same. And the story definitely didn't mention Peter's soul being freed (and agree that Mary Jane's soul is also being held captive as part of the deal).
    Like it'd make sense Strange was betting on more, but it's not said.
    Strange did mention Peter's soul but then it was dropped in favor of Harry.

    Both were Strange's champions, as their bet had two champions each, Mephisto's were both Kindreds while Strange's were Spidey and MJ, but Mephisto mistakenly thought that the other one was Harry.
    Right, but wasn't Peter defeated until Mary Jane showed up to help him and revealed Strange had won?

    I do think we can see the outlines of Spencer's original story in the Marvel marketing article (which makes you wonder where marketing got their information from - not from reading the comics, that's for sure) - he was going to tease OMD, then use Kindred to retcon Sins Past, but in the process free Mary Jane's and Peter's souls from Mephisto thus removing one of the biggest stains OMD has left on the characters. But who knows if he was going to restore the marriage - and doubtful Marvel would ever let that happen in the first place.

  13. #163
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    Also, the whole "Peter's daughter was destined to one day defeat Mephisto" was a pretty blatant olive branch on Spencer's part to try and create an in-universe rationalization for why Mephisto wanted to undo the marriage.
    Absolutely, the problem is that Mephisto's motivations aren't why people are annoyed with OMD to begin with.

    Like, he definitely was among the poorly written characters in OMD, since he was bizarrely tame and actually followed through the deal without fucking over Spidey in some way, but again, his crap motivations have their own problems, and saying "Spidey or Mayday will eventually end his reign" is ridiculous, neither one of 'em is anywhere near Mephisto's level, and the story trying to say that Mephisto caused the entire Green Goblin nonsense to **** over Spidey diminishes Norman to little more than Mephisto's bitch.

    I don't even like Norman, I find him to be ridiculously overrated and none of his stories are interesting enough to justify his return, and I can still see how ridiculous it is to say Mephisto being even an indirect cause for him to become GG is silly.

    I think people holding out that there will be a canon storyline to follow up on it are on some copium.
    Definitely, specially with the story showing characters that I hear are MC2 counterparts, MC2 itself ain't happening anymore lol.

    Even if MC2 stuff wasn't showing up, well, editorial has made it clear that something as "small" as getting Spidey married is unlikely to happen, having kids? Even more so lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Right - and wasn't Kindred around when Mysterio was in hell? I have to admit my memory is shaky on Kindred's movements, I need to go back and reread (no matter how much the Kindred machinations made my teeth hurt at the time, by comparison to Wells's run, Spencer's time on the title was a masterpiece of tight plotting and solid character work).
    Yeah, ASM#24 has Quentin impersonating that other therapist saying that Kindred was in hell before Mysterio too:



    And Harry is shown talking with Mysterio in Sinister War itself as well:



    (ASM#71)

    And that just doesn't work with the Stacy twins, who definitely died after him, so either this is the soul of a previous batch who died before Mysterio, and they're impersonating Harry for some reason, or this is AI Harry, who may or may not already be using the body of one of the Stacy twins (Which sounds weird by itself, to use someone's body when you're in hell) or just shapeshifting, or this is Mephisto while pretending he's Kindred, or Harry himself (Unlikely considering he's supposed to have stopped after all of that nonsense).

    Basically, whether that was actually Harry, or one of the Stacy twins impersonating Harry, or AI Harry, or Mephisto, I don't know, Spencer himself didn't make it clear, and the Marvel wiki only mitigates it somewhat.

    And weren't they obeying Harry AI in the first place, not Mephisto? Is Harry AI supposed to be Mephisto? My head hurts.
    Admittedly, that is a problem Sinister War itself caused lol.

    ASM#73 vol 5 talks like AI Harry is controlling both of 'em and that the Stacy twins are just puppets for him right now, but then ASM#74 has AI Harry suddenly disappear and now the Stacy twins are in control.

    Maybe AI Harry lost control over 'em, but that's never really pointed out.

    Considering how many scenes have Kindred thinking like he's Harry even in private moments, with one in particular even having him think about his own death:



    Which makes no fucking sense since Norman and clone Harry talk about Kindred like he has Harry's memories from before he redeemed himself, and that doesn't work if AI Harry remembers Harry's own death... Yeah, it's a mess, but whatever it is, AI Harry is not Mephisto, but is manipulated by him.

    Urgh, while I'll say editorial likely has a lot of blame for this nonsense, I think part of it goes to Spencer too, he had similar, convoluted nonsense in Secret Empire, and while that also had editorial interference, he started the convolutedness to begin with.

    Same. And the story definitely didn't mention Peter's soul being freed (and agree that Mary Jane's soul is also being held captive as part of the deal).
    I re-read ASM#74 and even at the end, Mephisto only talks about Strange winning and Harry's soul being freed, no one else's is talked about like they're freed.

    Strange did mention Peter's soul but then it was dropped in favor of Harry.
    Yeah it was weird, Spidey's soul being damaged in some way is why Strange went after Mephisto to begin with, and it's still mentioned in Sinister War itself before the final issues, then it's suddenly about Harry's soul.

    Right, but wasn't Peter defeated until Mary Jane showed up to help him and revealed Strange had won?
    Yep.

    Though looking at the issue itself, Mephisto says that Strange's champion won, singular, he doesn't talk about MJ, so I can see why the article made talked more like it was just Spidey's victory, it's hard enough to keep that of that convoluted garbage lol:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...34/unknown.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...12/unknown.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

    Kinda sucks even Spencer had MJ helping him out not being talked about, it'd be so easy to just say "champions".

    I do think we can see the outlines of Spencer's original story in the Marvel marketing article (which makes you wonder where marketing got their information from - not from reading the comics, that's for sure) - he was going to tease OMD, then use Kindred to retcon Sins Past, but in the process free Mary Jane's and Peter's souls from Mephisto thus removing one of the biggest stains OMD has left on the characters. But who knows if he was going to restore the marriage - and doubtful Marvel would ever let that happen in the first place.
    Honestly, even a "Spidey's and MJ's souls are freed" is an illusion of change anyways, and not even a well made one.

    Like, Spidey's and MJ's souls being fucked over by Mephisto in some way is something that was never really a part of the deal, it's only really Spider-Man/Deadpool that implies something of the like (Even then it's talked about Spidey having an empty life, it can be interpreted as him having a part of his soul missing but it's not worded clearly), it's Spencer's run that has an actual confirmation, and even then it just says Spidey's soul is damaged, but not in any way that affected Spidey during the run itself besides making Strange go after Mephisto.

    So even if Sinister War itself said that their souls are freed, uh, whatever, their souls were never shown to be imprisoned anyways, it changes nothing, specially considering the soul nonsense was never the problem with OMD or the status quo Spidey got after it, and that particular point Spidey's soul being said in some random article instead of shown in the comic itself makes it even more worthless.

    And hell, even if that point is supposed to matter, Wells' run screws it over too, 'cause their souls are freed, and Strange makes a monologue about how their love is like Super Saiyan strong, and now they're separated, yeah, very unbreakable love.

    Whether or not OMD is acknowledged, reversed, amplified, undone, whatever, all of these options are worthless by themselves, because they solve nothing, the big problem is how Spidey is treated like ****, so it could be like how DC decided to stop with New 52's dark nonsense with Rebirth, only to go back at it like, two years later.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

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