Is Mephisto being positioned to become Spider-Man's arch-nemesis?

[Nero]

You receive ASM#93 and Mephisto is revealed as the mastermind behind Beyond.

Your reaction in 10 words or less:

The Jackal would have made more sense.

[Lunala]

...

Um... Sexual assault tw?
I'm going to preface with saying that I don't think Nick Spencer quite realized what he had the characters do since comics are bad at recognizing real-life legal issues and consent in general. However...

tumblr_86536996c91fdc50a3fb098cfdfc04fb_8a6566da_400.jpg
Several sites offer the same information regarding the act of forcing someone to watch porn:
Attachment 119286Attachment 119285

images were placed inside the head of an adult male with prior sexual experience that tricked him into believing he had sexual relations with a 20-year-old woman he'd previously met. Using irl semantics, sexual assault was committed. I suppose, in this case, its a good thing everything was convoluted enough that it can be blamed entirely on Mephisto? (Since demon boy has a history)

[Kanos]

Um... Sexual assault tw?
I'm going to preface with saying that I don't think Nick Spencer quite realized what he had the characters do since comics are bad at recognizing real-life legal issues and consent in general. However...

tumblr_86536996c91fdc50a3fb098cfdfc04fb_8a6566da_400.jpg
Several sites offer the same information regarding the act of forcing someone to watch porn:
Attachment 119286Attachment 119285

images were placed inside the head of an adult male with prior sexual experience that tricked him into believing he had sexual relations with a 20-year-old woman he'd previously met. Using irl semantics, sexual assault was committed. I suppose, in this case, its a good thing everything was convoluted enough that it can be blamed entirely on Mephisto? (Since demon boy has a history)

Now I understand, thanks for the answer. But like I said, it's most likely not Harry but the AI/Mephisto behind this, because Harry couldn't have known that his father was alive.

[Huntsman Spider]

To (mis)quote a famous war general, "No character ever won villain of the year by sacrificing his first born to Satan. He won it by making the other character sacrifice theirs."

I doubt anyone thinks he's a good guy for the demonic deal. At least... I hope not? What annoys me is when shady characters that originally had any degree of depth have it removed by writing lacking subtlety. This is Flanderization at its finest, and it says a lot when comics from the 1960s could manage some subjects with more complexity.

Osborn might have often stolen things from Stromm, but he once was, at the very least, a passable businessman. Stromm secretly borrowed large sums of money from the business without letting the shareholders know. After he was caught, the opportunity allowed Osborn to frame it as embezzlement and land him in prison. It was clever because Stromm actually did mess up, allowing his partner to strike, and Osborn took him to the cleaners. Reframing a moment of mundane villain victory as supernatural involvement devalues a good story.

Trading a child for cash is the laziest conceivable choice anyone could've gone with for a capitalist. I don't expect Osborn to be a good person or magically non-abusive. But I would prefer that anything based on the 60s version of him kept his kid out of his rubbish since he'd have freaking panic attacks over it. Or if we are going through with the deal. Why not have a drunk and grieving Osborn sacrifice the kiddo "responsible" for the wife's death by childbirth treatment and explain her sudden inexplicable reappearance during the Red Goblin arc? Spencer is a better writer than me, so I'm confident he could've come up with something more compelling than my own suggestion, let alone what he went with, c'mon. This new revelation only exasperated my existent issues with the character's supposed "natural progression" since his return.

And unfortunately. We honestly can't be sure how much of his choices after this were his own. At least not until they revisit the darn thing. AGAIN. Having GG utter the phrase "Go ahead and kill him. He's of no use to me anymore." definitely indicates less than total agency. Also... since I'm already griping, Was it necessary to have Harry Osborn order Mysterio sexually assault his father? Like what the actual heck, man.

A reasonable argument, actually. I can see your point there.

Um... Sexual assault tw?
I'm going to preface with saying that I don't think Nick Spencer quite realized what he had the characters do since comics are bad at recognizing real-life legal issues and consent in general. However...

tumblr_86536996c91fdc50a3fb098cfdfc04fb_8a6566da_400.jpg
Several sites offer the same information regarding the act of forcing someone to watch porn:
Attachment 119286Attachment 119285

images were placed inside the head of an adult male with prior sexual experience that tricked him into believing he had sexual relations with a 20-year-old woman he'd previously met. Using irl semantics, sexual assault was committed. I suppose, in this case, its a good thing everything was convoluted enough that it can be blamed entirely on Mephisto? (Since demon boy has a history)

Yeah, in retrospect, that was pretty f***ed up. What the literal hell, Osborn A.I. that got coopted by Mephisto?

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

I do wonder a lot about the logistics behind those precise images being put into Norman's head. After Mysterio did that job, did Norman just simply walk away thinking, "Oh, I totally banged that hot chick once" or did he have clear memories of uh, the exact sensations and body parts involved? Because if the latter is true, I think there's a good argument for Gwen being more of the victim there.

[Huntsman Spider]

I do wonder a lot about the logistics behind those precise images being put into Norman's head. After Mysterio did that job, did Norman just simply walk away thinking, "Oh, I totally banged that hot chick once" or did he have clear memories of uh, the exact sensations and body parts involved? Because if the latter is true, I think there's a good argument for Gwen being more of the victim there.

Also a good point there.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

I feel like the writers genuinely didn't think about this at all and it's very frustrating. It's one of the reasons I'm very protective of 616 Gwen as a character because even when a story is about her, it isn't. To far, far too many writers she's just a walking womb/vagina with a blonde wig and hairband attached.

[Huntsman Spider]

I feel like the writers genuinely didn't think about this at all and it's very frustrating. It's one of the reasons I'm very protective of 616 Gwen as a character because even when a story is about her, it isn't. To far, far too many writers she's just a walking womb/vagina with a blonde wig and hairband attached.

Sadly, a very good point as well.

[Lunala]

...

There's a contemporary debate about Real person fics and deepfake porn edits that would be pertinent for this issue. Some regard it as sexual harassment. Others consider it distasteful but only a problem if you publicize it online where people can find it. Then... there are the fans. I'd argue that the person who had a video of his son reveal those images(or sensations too… Jeez… Please no) of her stripped form, as well as details of his own (since the absence of his limbs during this charade would be a noticeable discrepancy) were placed inside his brain without his consent with a "Gotcha" tacked on, was the one most harmed here. But this is analogous to nonconsensual revenge pornography. But... There's absolutely a significant place in this conversation for how this would have hurt Gwen. Like she and Harry were buddies, I'd be hurt and angry if someone I trusted did this to me. Or… A deviant demonic vision rendition of my pal did this? *Sigh* Comics... Anyway, she would never have consented to have her images used in this way, or to have her DNA harvested and used to make clones neither "parent" asked for to apparently "hurt Osborn". I know she was dead at the time but her opinion still mattered. Heck, someone could argue Beck was kind of a victim here too, since he never would've done this if he hadn't been threatened and coerced into it first.

You also have to wonder how they managed to set this up believably. Did they give Mysterio a photo album and some home videos and he made it work? Or did they originally clone Sarah to look so much like Gwen so Quintin could study her and use her body for this? Exhume her corpse to get her exact measurements? I'm not convinced if I want to know? This could readily be the stuff of a horror story.

[Huntsman Spider]

There's a contemporary debate about Real person fics and deepfake porn edits that would be pertinent for this issue. Some regard it as sexual harassment. Others consider it distasteful but only a problem if you publicize it online where people can find it. Then... there are the fans. I'd argue that the person who had a video of his son reveal those images(or sensations too… Jeez… Please no) of her stripped form, as well as details of his own (since the absence of his limbs during this charade would be a noticeable discrepancy) were placed inside his brain without his consent with a "Gotcha" tacked on, was the one most harmed here. But this is analogous to nonconsensual revenge pornography. But... There's absolutely a significant place in this conversation for how this would have hurt Gwen. Like she and Harry were buddies, I'd be hurt and angry if someone I trusted did this to me. Or… A deviant demonic vision rendition of my pal did this? *Sigh* Comics... Anyway, she would never have consented to have her images used in this way, or to have her DNA harvested and used to make clones neither "parent" asked for to apparently "hurt Osborn". I know she was dead at the time but her opinion still mattered. Heck, someone could argue Beck was kind of a victim here too, since he never would've done this if he hadn't been threatened and coerced into it first.

You also have to wonder how they managed to set this up believably. Did they give Mysterio a photo album and some home videos and he made it work? Or did they originally clone Sarah to look so much like Gwen so Quintin could study her and use her body for this? Exhume her corpse to get her exact measurements? I'm not convinced if I want to know? This could readily be the stuff of a horror story.

Wow, yeah . . . it does get more f***ed up the more actual thought gets put into it.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

There's a contemporary debate about Real person fics and deepfake porn edits that would be pertinent for this issue. Some regard it as sexual harassment. Others consider it distasteful but only a problem if you publicize it online where people can find it. Then... there are the fans. I'd argue that the person who had a video of his son reveal those images(or sensations too… Jeez… Please no) of her stripped form, as well as details of his own (since the absence of his limbs during this charade would be a noticeable discrepancy) were placed inside his brain without his consent with a "Gotcha" tacked on, was the one most harmed here. But this is analogous to nonconsensual revenge pornography. But... There's absolutely a significant place in this conversation for how this would have hurt Gwen. Like she and Harry were buddies, I'd be hurt and angry if someone I trusted did this to me. Or… A deviant demonic vision rendition of my pal did this? *Sigh* Comics... Anyway, she would never have consented to have her images used in this way, or to have her DNA harvested and used to make clones neither "parent" asked for to apparently "hurt Osborn". I know she was dead at the time but her opinion still mattered. Heck, someone could argue Beck was kind of a victim here too, since he never would've done this if he hadn't been threatened and coerced into it first.

You also have to wonder how they managed to set this up believably. Did they give Mysterio a photo album and some home videos and he made it work? Or did they originally clone Sarah to look so much like Gwen so Quintin could study her and use her body for this? Exhume her corpse to get her exact measurements? I'm not convinced if I want to know? This could readily be the stuff of a horror story.

Absolutely none of it makes sense from any angle, does it? Everything about this arc had to be stated to be the work of the devil precisely because it doesn't make sense for any human to do any of this. Though it's also dawned on me that nowhere in the story does it ever say the demon twins were actually made from Gwen's DNA, despite Sarah looking like her. And despite the Osborn AI stating they were meant to be "the children Norman never had" I'm not completely sure they even established Norman's DNA was used for them.



....Christ almighty I hate this story on every conceivable level. I hate it as a Harry fan, I hate it as a Gwen fan, I hate it as a woman, I hate it as a mental illness sufferer and I hate it as a person who's experienced sexual assault. It has permanently soured me on comics as a medium.

[Celgress]

I feel like the writers genuinely didn't think about this at all and it's very frustrating. It's one of the reasons I'm very protective of 616 Gwen as a character because even when a story is about her, it isn't. To far, far too many writers she's just a walking womb/vagina with a blonde wig and hairband attached.

I hope someday Spencer does a tell-all about his time at Marvel. I cannot help but wonder if there was editorial interference with the Kindred Arc. The whole ending felt really contrived and "off" to me...

[Spiderfan001]

Absolutely none of it makes sense from any angle, does it? Everything about this arc had to be stated to be the work of the devil precisely because it doesn't make sense for any human to do any of this. Though it's also dawned on me that nowhere in the story does it ever say the demon twins were actually made from Gwen's DNA, despite Sarah looking like her. And despite the Osborn AI stating they were meant to be "the children Norman never had" I'm not completely sure they even established Norman's DNA was used for them.



....Christ almighty I hate this story on every conceivable level. I hate it as a Harry fan, I hate it as a Gwen fan, I hate it as a woman, I hate it as a mental illness sufferer and I hate it as a person who's experienced sexual assault. It has permanently soured me on comics as a medium.

I know it's not much or any relief but best you can do is block it and read stories once they've been finished.Specially ones that seem to have heavy editorial interference.

My hope is Gwen and Harry stay buried and not ruined further

[Lunala]

...

Does anyone else feel weird about discussing something so serious on a joke(?) thread asking if Mephisto was the real archnemesis all along? I'm not suggesting we change, simply an observation.

CSA survivor and neuroatypical, here. No, it doesn't. *Sighs*. We all have different breaking points for our capacity to overlook problematic aspects of creative pieces to value them regardless, and it's valid for each of us. I still enjoy parts that I consider might have greatly enhanced if he hadn't left so quickly, but ultimately, I didn't like this direction for several reasons.

I might be recalling this wrong. But If I remember Sins Past rightly, I think Peter tested the twins and discovered they had a positive match on Gwen's DNA, and the American son armor had a DNA-lock so that only Norman's offspring could operate it? The Quesada-era writing enjoyed pushing OMD/Sins parcel, and now we're all stuck with poisoned water from a contaminated well. Before this reveal, Nick Spencer's treatment of the female characters gave me the impression he cared about them and their stories. I assume Spencer was trying to redeem Gwen Stacy's name and reputation with the readership, which was hurt by the assumption so many have that she "cheated on Spider-Man with the Green Goblin" which will often be followed by something disparagingly sexist. The data books helpfully stated this happened after Osborn helped rescue her and George Stacy from The Kingpin... when she wasn't dating Peter. Regardless, the more sensationalized narrative is what persisted. I believe Spencer wanted to rescind the tale without resorting to declaring Norman Osborn raped her. He seems like someone who would've wanted to sidestep another example of senseless sex crimes against women in comics. There's merely shunning it, but crossover titles frequently referenced it anyway. So, perhaps like he did with Felicia Hardy, I suspect this was composed to help improve the readership's view of Gwen(the falsely accused). I've noticed numerous fans: readers, and nonreaders alike, are delighted he retconned Sins, so I guess, in a way, he "succeeded"? *a finger lowers on the monkey's paw*

The trouble is, I don't think he comprehended what he was authoring. As much as everyone here loves them, serialized comics are notorious for their often less-than-perfect depiction of certain subjects. It's better than the early 2000s, but there's room for improvement. I doubt the writer recognized that comparable situations already exist in real life. The circumstances were penned purely from a fantasy perspective, which functioned as a perception filter—possibly aided by popular sexual assault myths in media. The research proposes that these types of attacks often have less to do with sexual interest than controlling and belittling another human. Otherwise, he'd have rethought the setup. Mysterio is highly gifted but ultimately is not a wizard. He would've needed to peddle this lie to Norman Osborn, unlike Miles Warren, never considered Gwen Stacy in a romantic light before Sins Past. Before that comic, the closest he came to tenderness towards a woman, barring his wife, was a nurse who reminded him of his wife, explicitly reflecting that a woman hadn't cared about him since Emily's death. Spencer likewise presumably meant The AI's dialogue as what Tvtropes refers to as a "take that" at Sins, rather than how readers might take it, but it... was questionable in this context. Unfortunately, sometimes intentions won't wholly benefit matters, and a lack of knowledge on specific issues leads to unfortunate implications. The Editorial should have caught it. I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to absolve him or anything? I'm just trying to convey the guy didn't mean harm, probably set out directly to avoid it, but for some, the damage was caused, and I'm sorry to hear this distressed you as a fan.

...I guess the revenge plot checks out. I just recalled that one time Osborn reflects at Harry's tombstone that he's got everything but no one to present it to. Maybe it's around the time he calls Harry a disappointment that the AI struck and presented him with rapidly aging children, like the reverse of the parent plot but with considerable very iffy steps. If this wasn't an act? Ugh. There were too many liars in this story. I require a timeline for this. I'll forever wonder what Spencer intended with all this, but, yeah, I can understand why this would disturb you.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Does anyone else feel weird about discussing something so serious on a joke(?) thread asking if Mephisto was the real archnemesis all along? I'm not suggesting we change, simply an observation.

Ah, sorry to the original thread creator, this probably wasn't what you had in mind.

CSA survivor and neuroatypical, here. No, it doesn't. *Sighs*. We all have different breaking points for our capacity to overlook problematic aspects of creative pieces to value them regardless, and it's valid for each of us. I still enjoy parts that I consider might have greatly enhanced if he hadn't left so quickly, but ultimately, I didn't like this direction for several reasons.

[neuroatypical solidarity fistbump]

I suppose I just really wish someone had thought for a second about the actual implications of any of this. Perhaps the most unpopular opinion I will ever have about anything is that the problem with Sins Past isn't that Gwen slept with Norman - I have serious qualms about her taste but hey, she was a single woman at the time - it's that the story isn't interested at all in why Gwen slept with Norman, or why they apparently didn't use protection, or anything at all to do with Gwen having actual agency. Had the story been interested in Gwen as a person rather than as an uterus it might have even had a shot at being good, who knows. But instead the original story is - well, Norman sleeps with a girl young enough to be his daughter, who probably hasn't had sex before, and it's all the girl's fault.


And in the decades afterwards all anyone, writers and fans both, really cared about was that Gwen's alleged first time was with Norman. Everything that happened since has been about "redeeming" her as the madonna part of the madonna-whore dichotomy. Oh, she can still be a mother figure to the demon twins - Peter even tells them "Gwen would have loved you just the same" - but she absolutely cannot have had sex, no way. Now here we are and Harry, albeit a Mephisto-possessed one, is just another sacrifice on the altar of Gwen's Virginity.

It really is poisoned water from a contaminated well. :/



(Oh god we probably should start a new thread, I'm so sorry.)