Is Mephisto being positioned to become Spider-Man's arch-nemesis?

[FFJamie94]

Honestly, I'm in the camp that believed that Spencer just saw it as a way to get rid of Sin's Past from continuity. You could tell this wasn't the original plan (everything pre Sinister War seemed to point towards undoing One More Day) but I think someone stepped in at Marvel and asked "Spencer! What do you think you are doing?!".

I guess it was all a means to an end. Do I think that Spencer is sexiest? No. I think he was well intentioned and he wanted to get rid of a story which People hated, it was just Sins Past was the one he could retcon out.
Do I think the story is any good? Again, it's a means to an end, it's homework. All it's doing is taking away from the Universe.
Can I see it's offensive? Yeah, I can now. Making your Dad believe he had sex with your best friend's dead ex is a little... well very weird when you put it like that.

Again, I don't think Spencer was trying to do anything harmful, I think it was a genuine attempt to get rid of ideas that People didn't like. The original Sins Past I think is the original sin here and sadly, as much as I like JMS and his run on Amazing, he is the real sinner. The whole concept of Sin's Past should have been thrown out on conception, but it was left in because... well... it creates drama. I think the original story is the sexiest one and Spencer was trying his best to course correct. Do I think he succeeded? Well, a lot of these stories tend to forget what the important part of the story is and that's the victims.
Gwen is the real victim here, but she's kind of used as a plot device rather than a character. I think that is where Spencer really messes up.

But if this wasn't the original plan, I can see how he would overlook it. He wanted off as quickly as possible and we know that Marvel were pushing him in a direction he didn't want to go (those one shot specials which concluded important story arcs, that was editorial not Spencer).

Spencer is a talented writer, but I do feel the ending of ASM run was rather weak, and there were a few arcs building up to it which were weaker than what came at the start.
I think he would have had more of a chance to do his thing if he undid One More Day with Last Remains. But alas, here we are.

[Huntsman Spider]

Honestly, I'm in the camp that believed that Spencer just saw it as a way to get rid of Sin's Past from continuity. You could tell this wasn't the original plan (everything pre Sinister War seemed to point towards undoing One More Day) but I think someone stepped in at Marvel and asked "Spencer! What do you think you are doing?!".

I guess it was all a means to an end. Do I think that Spencer is sexiest? No. I think he was well intentioned and he wanted to get rid of a story which People hated, it was just Sins Past was the one he could retcon out.
Do I think the story is any good? Again, it's a means to an end, it's homework. All it's doing is taking away from the Universe.
Can I see it's offensive? Yeah, I can now. Making your Dad believe he had sex with your best friend's dead ex is a little... well very weird when you put it like that.

Again, I don't think Spencer was trying to do anything harmful, I think it was a genuine attempt to get rid of ideas that People didn't like. The original Sins Past I think is the original sin here and sadly, as much as I like JMS and his run on Amazing, he is the real sinner. The whole concept of Sin's Past should have been thrown out on conception, but it was left in because... well... it creates drama. I think the original story is the sexiest one and Spencer was trying his best to course correct. Do I think he succeeded? Well, a lot of these stories tend to forget what the important part of the story is and that's the victims.
Gwen is the real victim here, but she's kind of used as a plot device rather than a character. I think that is where Spencer really messes up.

But if this wasn't the original plan, I can see how he would overlook it. He wanted off as quickly as possible and we know that Marvel were pushing him in a direction he didn't want to go (those one shot specials which concluded important story arcs, that was editorial not Spencer).

Spencer is a talented writer, but I do feel the ending of ASM run was rather weak, and there were a few arcs building up to it which were weaker than what came at the start.
I think he would have had more of a chance to do his thing if he undid One More Day with Last Remains. But alas, here we are.

I would say the original sinner was more Joe Quesada when he was still editor-in-chief, as JMS at least intended the twins to have been unwittingly fathered by Peter, but Quesada vetoed that because he thought Peter being a father at all would "age him too much," not to mention being an unwed father would make him a "bad role model for the kids." Hence, the atrocity we got stuck with, and as explained by those here who would know and understand better than me, it was only worsened or compounded by Spencer's (well-intentioned) efforts to undo it, since --- not for the first time, in retrospect --- Gwen Stacy's own agency as a character (and a person in-universe) was completely ignored in favor of preserving or, rather, restoring a romanticized and idealized image that the readers and fans, along with creatives working for Marvel, had of her as Peter's perfect love. Given all that, the legacy of Sins Past is indeed an incredibly sordid and tainted one.

[Alan2099]

I would say the original sinner was more Joe Quesada when he was still editor-in-chief, as JMS at least intended the twins to have been unwittingly fathered by Peter, but Quesada vetoed that because he thought Peter being a father at all would "age him too much," not to mention being an unwed father would make him a "bad role model for the kids." Hence, the atrocity we got stuck with, and as explained by those here who would know and understand better than me, it was only worsened or compounded by Spencer's (well-intentioned) efforts to undo it, since --- not for the first time, in retrospect --- Gwen Stacy's own agency as a character (and a person in-universe) was completely ignored in favor of preserving or, rather, restoring a romanticized and idealized image that the readers and fans, along with creatives working for Marvel, had of her as Peter's perfect love. Given all that, the legacy of Sins Past is indeed an incredibly sordid and tainted one.

I don't know. It's obvious Quesada didn't want the story done the way JMS wanted it done, but JMS is still the guy that that actually wrote the bad story.

Honestly, it seems really typical of JMS. Whenever you hear stories where he said he wanted to do something but they wouldn't let him, the story he does put out tends to feel sloppy and poorly thought out. I get the feeling that whenever he's told 'no' he stop caring and just slaps something out there and later claims it's not his fault.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't know. It's obvious Quesada didn't want the story done the way JMS wanted it done, but JMS is still the guy that that actually wrote the bad story.

Honestly, it seems really typical of JMS. Whenever you hear stories where he said he wanted to do something but they wouldn't let him, the story he does put out tends to feel sloppy and poorly thought out. I get the feeling that whenever he's told 'no' he stop caring and just slaps something out there and later claims it's not his fault.

Fair point. Kind of like what happened later with One More Day, which kicked off this thread in the first place.

[FFJamie94]

Sins Past is one of the things where the blame lands at JMS. Even if they went with his original idea, it would have been better, but it still wouldn’t have been good.
The implications of that story are something you can’t really justify.
Personally, what happened to Peter and MJ’s baby would have made for a much more interesting story, but alas we’ll never get a conclusion to that plot point.

Joey Q had to course correct on that story, and while he can be blamed for a lot of wrong doing with Spider-Man, that’s one thing I don’t think he can be entirely blamed for.

[Kanos]

Sins Past is one of the things where the blame lands at JMS. Even if they went with his original idea, it would have been better, but it still wouldn’t have been good.
The implications of that story are something you can’t really justify.
Personally, what happened to Peter and MJ’s baby would have made for a much more interesting story, but alas we’ll never get a conclusion to that plot point.

Joey Q had to course correct on that story, and while he can be blamed for a lot of wrong doing with Spider-Man, that’s one thing I don’t think he can be entirely blamed for.

I agree with you. The story that Peter has secret children with Gwen is strange because Peter already had a missing child with MJ. This doesn't work in the Spider-Man franchise either, how can this story be shown in the animated series? To the cinema? They should have abandoned this concept from the very beginning.

[Huntsman Spider]

Sins Past is one of the things where the blame lands at JMS. Even if they went with his original idea, it would have been better, but it still wouldn’t have been good.
The implications of that story are something you can’t really justify.
Personally, what happened to Peter and MJ’s baby would have made for a much more interesting story, but alas we’ll never get a conclusion to that plot point.

Joey Q had to course correct on that story, and while he can be blamed for a lot of wrong doing with Spider-Man, that’s one thing I don’t think he can be entirely blamed for.

According to Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 by Mark Millar, Peter and Mary Jane's baby really was stillborn, after all, thanks to Norman Osborn's agent Alison Mongrain poisoning MJ into premature labor. Mac Gargan/Scorpion, later to become Venom in that storyline, actually made a crack about the cycle of revenge Norman and Peter had been stuck in, specifically juxtaposing Peter's daughter's stillbirth as a result of Norman's machinations with Norman blaming Peter for his own son (and Peter's once-best friend) Harry's death. That was the last word, at least according to Marvel.

[Lunala]

...

*bumps fist*
You... might be right in proposing that somebody in charge might be deifying that facet of her. Ghost-Spider isn't particularly interested in romance, and neither is Gwenpool, leading to some speculating she could be asexual. It didn't seem odd to me at the time but... huh. They're contrasting MJ and Gwen, and I didn't even notice. Those sneaky sharpies...

Your post reminds me of a thought I had about how if someone told me Miles Warren had somehow managed to make his way into the real world and bribed himself into Marvel's executive headquarters, I wouldn't have been surprised. Marvel is a bit obsessed with her recently? Ghosty is fantastic, and I appreciate her, and Gwenpool has her supporters. But with the new Gwenverse concept, it seems someone ostensibly enjoys creating new "clones" of her. Then there's the sexual element. Even in kid's cartoons like the 2017 Spider-Man series, I remember glancing at her strapped to a table by a leering Jackal, reimagined to be her uncle, and grumbling how gratuitous I found those teenage girl chest shots.

The thought of Gwen with Norman makes me recoil so fast it would leave skidmarks on the pavement, and the writing should never have put her with the villain who murdered her. That said, if witnessing all those thirst posts featuring 60-year-old Willem Dafoe(who seems like a genuinely good person) have taught me anything, there's nothing odd about a 20 year old developing a crush on a wealthy scientist and company owner. Certainly not in a universe where ancient beings regularly hook up with young mortals, and 10-year-old Sue Storm was crushing on 20-year-old Reed Richards(mercifully unrequited until she was older). Osborn should've dodged the connection due to the age gap and association with Harry, but he's the one I'm judging, not her. I'll repeat some posts here saying that Quesada shouldn't have presumed Norman Osborn was a suitable replacement for Peter, but, JMS was disproportionately nasty towards her when he wrote Sins Past. Gwen Stacy slept with someone once and regretted it, but oh no, it turns out she's pregnant with twins. Their sperm donor is cruel towards his son, her friend, and the half-brother of her children, so she tells the toxic pos, that he's not welcome in their lives and plans on introducing the twins to a much better daddy to her ankle biters. A mother standing up for herself and her right to put the welfare of her babies first is retconned into what caused the monster to snap that final time and kill her. Peter is then framed as heroic for forgiving her for sleeping with his enemy. Ignoring the fact though Peter never told her the Green Goblin's civilian identity. Peter would've had no right to dictate her love life when the incident happened, and she was literally thrown off a bridge for it. This harshly penalized a woman for the crime of maybe having sexual needs, directly pointing out she and Peter were never intimate, and well... I don't always notice sexism, but, that story was congealed with enough that it would've splintered Wolverine's adamantium claws if he tried shredding it. So I get why Spencer would want it gone, and I did too.

It's just... on top of everything else that development generated; you're right in saying this was unfair to Harry. A mentally ill man who died being redeemed did not deserve to be sent to hell due to a binding agreement that (I hope gets retconned fast) requires the readers to accept the fallacy that a maltreated child's personhood is the property of his abusive parent or the entire plot falls apart. Sins past had Osborn push that assertion, and this story (unintentionally) provided narrative support. It's natural for Mephisto, something of an abusive parent himself, to believe the same, but I doubt the Spiderverse was improved by bringing in that message. I preferred the Osborn curse remained a metaphor for the cycle of generational abuse, thanks.

...

That cheerily respectful letter Osborn sent Peter in that story was amazingly creepy.

[Huntsman Spider]

*bumps fist*
You... might be right in proposing that somebody in charge might be deifying that facet of her. Ghost-Spider isn't particularly interested in romance, and neither is Gwenpool, leading to some speculating she could be asexual. It didn't seem odd to me at the time but... huh. They're contrasting MJ and Gwen, and I didn't even notice. Those sneaky sharpies...

Your post reminds me of a thought I had about how if someone told me Miles Warren had somehow managed to make his way into the real world and bribed himself into Marvel's executive headquarters, I wouldn't have been surprised. Marvel is a bit obsessed with her recently? Ghosty is fantastic, and I appreciate her, and Gwenpool has her supporters. But with the new Gwenverse concept, it seems someone ostensibly enjoys creating new "clones" of her. Then there's the sexual element. Even in kid's cartoons like the 2017 Spider-Man series, I remember glancing at her strapped to a table by a leering Jackal, reimagined to be her uncle, and grumbling how gratuitous I found those teenage girl chest shots.

The thought of Gwen with Norman makes me recoil so fast it would leave skidmarks on the pavement, and the writing should never have put her with the villain who murdered her. That said, if witnessing all those thirst posts featuring 60-year-old Willem Dafoe(who seems like a genuinely good person) have taught me anything, there's nothing odd about a 20 year old developing a crush on a wealthy scientist and company owner. Certainly not in a universe where ancient beings regularly hook up with young mortals, and 10-year-old Sue Storm was crushing on 20-year-old Reed Richards(mercifully unrequited until she was older). Osborn should've dodged the connection due to the age gap and association with Harry, but he's the one I'm judging, not her. I'll repeat some posts here saying that Quesada shouldn't have presumed Norman Osborn was a suitable replacement for Peter, but, JMS was disproportionately nasty towards her when he wrote Sins Past. Gwen Stacy slept with someone once and regretted it, but oh no, it turns out she's pregnant with twins. Their sperm donor is cruel towards his son, her friend, and the half-brother of her children, so she tells the toxic pos, that he's not welcome in their lives and plans on introducing the twins to a much better daddy to her ankle biters. A mother standing up for herself and her right to put the welfare of her babies first is retconned into what caused the monster to snap that final time and kill her. Peter is then framed as heroic for forgiving her for sleeping with his enemy. Ignoring the fact though Peter never told her the Green Goblin's civilian identity. Peter would've had no right to dictate her love life when the incident happened, and she was literally thrown off a bridge for it. This harshly penalized a woman for the crime of maybe having sexual needs, directly pointing out she and Peter were never intimate, and well... I don't always notice sexism, but, that story was congealed with enough that it would've splintered Wolverine's adamantium claws if he tried shredding it. So I get why Spencer would want it gone, and I did too.

It's just... on top of everything else that development generated; you're right in saying this was unfair to Harry. A mentally ill man who died being redeemed did not deserve to be sent to hell due to a binding agreement that (I hope gets retconned fast) requires the readers to accept the fallacy that a maltreated child's personhood is the property of his abusive parent or the entire plot falls apart. Sins past had Osborn push that assertion, and this story (unintentionally) provided narrative support. It's natural for Mephisto, something of an abusive parent himself, to believe the same, but I doubt the Spiderverse was improved by bringing in that message. I preferred the Osborn curse remained a metaphor for the cycle of generational abuse, thanks.



That cheerily respectful letter Osborn sent Peter in that story was amazingly creepy.

Pretty much, and yeah . . . that letter left me thinking, "If that's how Osborn really feels deep down about Peter, and that's how he treats someone he actually respects, admires, and maybe even loves (to the degree a psychopath like him is capable of that particular emotion) . . . well, I'd really hate to see what he'd do to someone he genuinely hates."

[Matt Rat]

According to Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12 by Mark Millar, Peter and Mary Jane's baby really was stillborn, after all, thanks to Norman Osborn's agent Alison Mongrain poisoning MJ into premature labor. Mac Gargan/Scorpion, later to become Venom in that storyline, actually made a crack about the cycle of revenge Norman and Peter had been stuck in, specifically juxtaposing Peter's daughter's stillbirth as a result of Norman's machinations with Norman blaming Peter for his own son (and Peter's once-best friend) Harry's death. That was the last word, at least according to Marvel.

Thing is though, this came from hardly the most reputable source, it came from a villain, who'd want to say exactly the right sort of thing that would hurt and anger Peter.

If Marvel want to bring Mayday back at any point, they can. DeMatties' recent interview even gives us the perfect excuse not to just bring her back as an infant either, as he believes five years have passed since the Clone Saga had ended. So she would be five years old.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thing is though, this came from hardly the most reputable source, it came from a villain, who'd want to say exactly the right sort of thing that would hurt and anger Peter.

If Marvel want to bring Mayday back at any point, they can. DeMatties' recent interview even gives us the perfect excuse not to just bring her back as an infant either, as he believes five years have passed since the Clone Saga had ended. So she would be five years old.

In that case, Peter should be 30 by now, as the 90s Clone Saga positioned him (and technically Ben) at about age 25. That said, if "baby May" is currently five years old . . . where has she been and who's been taking care of her all this time? Another agent of Osborn, perhaps?

[Lunala]

...

I know it's impossible, even for medical professionals to diagnose fictional characters, but...I've often wondered if the Osborn family(including Gabriel and Sarah) might have BPD.
Screenshot_20220319-211449_kindlephoto-266546596.jpgScreenshot_20220319-211425_kindlephoto-266617023.jpg Screenshot_20220319-211437_kindlephoto-266584892.jpg

*Note: I wouldn't want anyone actually diagnosed in-universe and this was before Gabriel and Sarah(who once was redeemed and became an Interpol agent) were revealed to be hell children and the sympathetically written Harry Lyman discovered he was a clone. Before the kindred arc, Sarah, Harry, and Normie provided a good example of how they were ultimately good people and won out over their upbringing so offered balance between Gabriel (whom I had hoped would eventually be redeemed if they used him) and their father, who is evil and before this arc threw it into question was always completely responsible for his actions. It should also be said that people with BPD in real life are much more likely to be harmed by others, or themselves, than to harm others.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

I know it's impossible, even for medical professionals to diagnose fictional characters, but...I've often wondered if the Osborn family(including Gabriel and Sarah) might have BPD.
Screenshot_20220319-211449_kindlephoto-266546596.jpgScreenshot_20220319-211425_kindlephoto-266617023.jpg Screenshot_20220319-211437_kindlephoto-266584892.jpg

*Note: I wouldn't want anyone actually diagnosed in-universe and this was before Gabriel and Sarah(who once was redeemed and became an Interpol agent) were revealed to be hell children and the sympathetically written Harry Lyman discovered he was a clone. Before the kindred arc, Sarah, Harry, and Normie provided a good example of how they were ultimately good people and won out over their upbringing so offered balance between Gabriel (whom I had hoped would eventually be redeemed if they used him) and their father, who is evil and before this arc threw it into question was always completely responsible for his actions. It should also be said that people with BPD in real life are much more likely to be harmed by others, or themselves, than to harm others.

Harry was diagnosed with schizophrenia back in the 70s (same issue Gwen died):

Image1.jpg

...but I'm guessing the condition was far from being well understood back in those days. "Psychosis" isn't even spelled properly!

For me and the like... Ten other 616 Harry fans out there, that was always one of the most important things about him, being an ultimately good person who won out over his upbringing, like you said. I guess this arc doesn't quite negate this since Norman states Mephisto was the one responsible for the twins, and it's debatable how much agency one has in doing bad things when the devil owns your soul, but it's still a big ol' convoluted mess of suck.

...And even worse when you bring mental illness into the mix.

[Lunala]

...

Yeah...we already have characters whose circumstances are blamed on their flaws as people, doctors laughing as patients harm themselves(because they're "bad people who deserve It"), and healthcare providers as supervillains, the fewer associations persons with mental illnesses have with demonic entities the better, especially not when you've got modern board-certified psychiatrists from Yale like Richard Gallagher who published a book back in 2019 about how some of his patients were actually possessed by demons. ��

Lol. "Pychosis". You've got a great eye! I might not criticize spelling errors too heavily when it's writers(and maybe I should), but the editors are earning a raised eyebrow. Borderline Personality Disorder used to be known under the now-defunct term, pseudoneurotic schizophrenia. Borderline as a psychiatric term was coined in 1972 but used as an organization of disorders rather than BPD until 1978. BPD wasn't part of the DSM until 1980. Thus, they couldn't have diagnosed him with BPD when they wrote The Death of Gwen Stacy in 1973. It's a headcanon that relied on sketch logic and confirmation bias, but one I've had to abandon after the Kindred arc. Cuz sudden demon retcon. I'm glad to have talked about this here because I am a bit happier blaming Mephisto for this shenanery. Still... Why must you Literally Demonize the mentally ill, Comics?

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Lol. "Pychosis". You've got a great eye! I might not criticize spelling errors too heavily when it's writers(and maybe I should), but the editors are earning a raised eyebrow. Borderline Personality Disorder used to be known under the now-defunct term, pseudoneurotic schizophrenia. Borderline as a psychiatric term was coined in 1972 but used as an organization of disorders rather than BPD until 1978. BPD wasn't part of the DSM until 1980. Thus, they couldn't have diagnosed him with BPD when they wrote The Death of Gwen Stacy in 1973. It's a headcanon that relied on sketch logic and confirmation bias, but one I've had to abandon after the Kindred arc. Cuz sudden demon retcon. I'm glad to have talked about this here because I am a bit happier blaming Mephisto for this shenanery. Still... Why must you Literally Demonize the mentally ill, Comics?

Thank you!! And also...Your last sentence there really jumped out at me because that was, believe it or not, the title of an article I wrote about the Kindred arc. Published at the end of 2020, so before the story got even worse (from my perspective), but... Well if anyone wants to read it it's here!