The Batman has Hollywood Diversity done right.(spoilers)

[godisawesome]

I’d have put Jeffrey Wright in my shortlist of blindingly obvious actors to play Jim Gordon. Disappointing that we had Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent in the Burton film and we’re still having this conversation thirty years later.

Yeah, in some ways, BDW beating Wright to the punch in playing a race-flipped major Batman character over 30 years ago can kind of put The Batman’s diversity in a less exceptional, though still positive, light. The original plan was for a black Two-Face and a black Robin (with a Wayans brother as Dick Grayson), right?

It kind of makes the damning indictment be on the production formula that not only declined doing a black Robin, but dropped BDW as Dent for Jones in Batman Forever - not only dropping diversity, but also a lot of dramatic potential and consistency. And it’s the production formula that I think people should be more wary of nowadays - of higher ups practicing “indirect” racism and sexism by backing up less than laudatory decisions by directors, or by enforcing de facto racism by fiat from above.

WB had to choose not to bring back BDW in order for Jones to replace him. And LFL had to choose to allow and then reinforce John Boyega’s sidelining in order for Driver to be promoted above him. Directors and writers change put while companies don’t.

Eh...I don't know if it was diversity done right, the weakest part of the film was the mayor who didn't make any sense. They also failed to diversify the villains because all the bad guys were white guys which some people don't seem to have an issue with.

Two things that I see:

1 - Without a diversity push anywhere in the film’s production… your main villains are still likely to be white guys just like the heroes are, so this is more just the old status quo.

2 - While pushing for diversity in villains is also good… there’s nothing wrong with specifically embracing some level of criticizing white privilege by making the villains embrace aspects of that. At least with that narrative choice, you’re more likely to accurately reflect some racial politics and point out problems in the system; Riddler is an incel white nerd becoming a mass murderer, most of his initial victims exploited minorities and their privilege, and that does, to some extent, give the story a bit of extra realism.

One of the things I hold against Rian Johnson and LFL is how they had a perfect example of a “Patron Saint of White Male Privilege” in Kylo Ren, and instead made him their preferred male lead at everyone else’s expense - the guy was perfectly made to be a soft stand-in for the age of Trump, and arrived a year early while introducing himself via ordering a slave soldier played by a black actor to commit war crimes and then tortured him for “betraying” his fascist cause, (mentally) violating the main heroine in a torture scene that intentionally ramped up the allegories to stuff like the #MeToo movement, and was 100% coded as a disturbed example of rich but insecure assholes…

…And LFL decided that he was the most sympathetic character they could make a male lead.

That’s why I think you have to watch the companies and executives more than the individual directors. If the executives have their heads screwed on right (or at least better) you’ll see stuff like Kevin Feige fighting for diversity in the MCU… but if the executive is even just apathetic about diversity, they’re liable to just give way to racism.

[Nods]

1. The villains really shouldn't be single gender single race based on the plot (a ripoff of LA Confidential), this is a movie where the gangsters, vigilante's, and corrupt cops are all white and the victims are off scene and ignored. In it's place we get the modern cliche of these films...all figures of authority need to either be POC or are going to be POC. This creates a somewhat complex issue where is a positive stereotype and good stereotype? If you watch non-PC films from the 20's-30's you see black characters are portrayed positively but as low level friendly types. If a character is a one-dimensional maid or a one-dimensional mayor is that for the better or worse?

2. Criticizing white privilege should be a focus not a feature and it really didn't belong in this film. This should have been a film about class, violence, and ego, all of these movies have evil white men where the film fails it's that it's more simplistic and poorly executed as the earlier Joker film. This is supposed to be art...doing the same art and saying the same things in every film is not a good thing.

[Castle]

What would you consider to be Hollywood diversity done wrong?

This was such a long though very interesting topic. that was discussed in good depth on this thread, So I dont need or even want to repost my own views again.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...med-Franchises


What I will say is that, there seem to be a reoccurring opinion from fans that they will rather see newly created original characters who are women or poc than just race or gender bending established characters.

However fans seem not to mind race or gender bending when the characters are just as good if not better than the original white or male character. I have seen more people point to that as a good example of diversity when asked how they got it right.

[KurtW95]

I would disagree in the sense that I don’t think raceswapping of any kind is a doing diversity right. I think characters should look and act like they do in the comics (discounting changes to match said adaption). Which is why I also dislike the recent casting or Luthor, Barry, and the Joker. Doing diversity right in my view is using good minority characters that are already there. And with Batman, that could mean Lucius, Ra’s, Bane, Shiva, Cassandra, Aaron Cash, Sensei, any of the Fox kids, Honor Guest, Onyx, Black Spider, Katana etc. or just create new characters that fit in Batman’s world.

[j9ac9k]

I would disagree in the sense that I don’t think race-swapping of any kind is a doing diversity right. I think characters should look and act like they do in the comics (discounting changes to match said adaption). Which is why I also dislike the recent casting or Luthor, Barry, and the Joker. Doing diversity right in my view is using good minority characters that are already there. And with Batman, that could mean Lucius, Ra’s, Bane, Shiva, Cassandra, Aaron Cash, Sensei, any of the Fox kids, Honor Guest, Onyx, Black Spider, Katana etc. or just create new characters that fit in Batman’s world.

RDJ didn't act like Tony Stark from the comics that I read - he acted like RDJ. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't act like any Joker I read in the comics. Halle Berry was horrible, but was it her race or just a terrible movie? Diversity and race-swapping etc is only one aspect of how comics get adapted to another medium and it's one of the lesser-important ones behind good writing, acting and directing. But it's an easy one for reactionary internet trolls to get up in arms about before seeing the movie.(because the trolls don't care about movies, they care about race and the perceived threats to their cultural hegemony)

[ironman2978]

RDJ didn't act like Tony Stark from the comics that I read - he acted like RDJ. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't act like any Joker I read in the comics. Halle Berry was horrible, but was it her race or just a terrible movie? Diversity and race-swapping etc is only one aspect of how comics get adapted to another medium and it's one of the lesser-important ones behind good writing, acting and directing. But it's an easy one for reactionary internet trolls to get up in arms about before seeing the movie.(because the trolls don't care about movies, they care about race and the perceived threats to their cultural hegemony)

I think I slightly disagree, because RDJ and Heath Ledger felt like comic Iron Man and Joker respectively but translated through the lens of the story that the respective film is trying to tell. After all, it’s an adaption. No comic book movie will 100% match up to decades worth of comics written and drawn by different people with respectively different ideas of what the character is going to be.


I agree race swapping and diversity is only one aspect of how these stories get adapted, and ultimately falls behind what you described. I’ve seen people not feel that actors like Samuel L. Jackson wasn’t a good fit for Nick Fury, Jurnee Smollett as Black Canary, among other actors who consistently get questioned for getting the role for the movies they play in. It

It feels like a no win situation at times even if someone says used the minority characters specifically created for the comics, but they are under promoted or under used or just create new minority characters, but then you run into the complaints why don’t you use familiar storyline or characters from the decades of history. I honestly think that ultimately the ability of acting should come before the race of what the character should be.

I think this film or DW from Luke Cage are few among the many example. But like you said, there’s always something for trolls or just people to nitpick about, while these actors are either trying to do their jobs or what they love, while probably getting attacked left or right for every little detail.

[Scott Taylor]

RDJ was acting almost exactly like Ultimate Iron Man. Which differs quite a bit from 616 Iron Man. The MCU is mostly based on the Bendis version of Marvel, I think, even if they tried to incorporate events from the 616, best they could do.

Obviously there are other exceptions - like GotG, which never had an Ultimate version. But the version we got wasn't really 616 either.

[KurtW95]

RDJ didn't act like Tony Stark from the comics that I read - he acted like RDJ. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't act like any Joker I read in the comics. Halle Berry was horrible, but was it her race or just a terrible movie?

That doesn't have to do with the casting.

Diversity and race-swapping etc is only one aspect of how comics get adapted to another medium and it's one of the lesser-important ones behind good writing, acting and directing.

So, it is not important to you that characters from a visual medium resemble their counterparts from the comics? I'm sorry, but that should always take precedence when casting characters in an adaption based on comic books.

But it's an easy one for reactionary internet trolls to get up in arms about before seeing the movie.(because the trolls don't care about movies, they care about race and the perceived threats to their cultural hegemony)

Yikes. So, anyone who wants the characters to look like they have in the comics is a racist troll?

[phonogram12]

So, it is not important to you that characters from a visual medium resemble their counterparts from the comics? I'm sorry, but that should always take precedence when casting characters in an adaption based on comic books

Hard disagree. Performance should. Resemblance should come in second.

[Noodle]

That doesn't have to do with the casting.

So, it is not important to you that characters from a visual medium resemble their counterparts from the comics? I'm sorry, but that should always take precedence when casting characters in an adaption based on comic books.

These statements are contradictory.

The Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie didn't look like the Tony Stark in the comics before it released. The Joker from The Dark Knight didn't look like The Joker from the comics from before the movie was released. If you're OK with those versions, then you're OK with raceswapping, as the only difference is skin tone. As you said, remaining true to the comic look should "always take precedence."

[numberthirty]

These statements are contradictory.

The Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie didn't look like the Tony Stark in the comics before it released. The Joker from The Dark Knight didn't look like The Joker from the comics from before the movie was released. If you're OK with those versions, then you're OK with raceswapping, as the only difference is skin tone. As you said, remaining true to the comic look should "always take precedence."

That's kind of a tough one...

Considering how close it ran to Bermejo's design in Joker, I always did wonder if the two takes being so close what just happenstance.

Hard to tell if it was even a thing, or if one had nothing to do with the other.

[ironman2978]

That's kind of a tough one...

Considering how close it ran to Bermejo's design in Joker, I always did wonder if the two takes being so close what just happenstance.

Hard to tell if it was even a thing, or if one had nothing to do with the other.

Not to mention Tony from the Ultimates and post 2001 comics was rocking a goatee and look similar to RDJ Tony.

Ultimately, the performance should always come first. There are ways to make them resemble their comic counterparts but artists have these characters change from appearance to appearance. I would love the actor to be able to deliver the performance and really capture the performance of the character.

And RDJ seemed like a mix of Ultimate and different elements of Tony through out the years (the Tony who hunted the government to get his equipment back, Tony stopping manufacturing weapons for the government during the initial 70’s run, Tony during the Extremis era, etc)

Skin tone shouldn’t mean they can’t look like their comic counterparts.

[j9ac9k]

So, it is not important to you that characters from a visual medium resemble their counterparts from the comics? I'm sorry, but that should always take precedence when casting characters in an adaption based on comic books.

We'll just have to disagree that "it takes precedence." I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's one aspect of the whole package. Some are more faithful than others, and for some characters the overall visual is extremely important, (Superman)while for some characters, less so (Bloodsport), but ymmv.

Yikes. So, anyone who wants the characters to look like they have in the comics is a racist troll?

NO - not at all what I said. I was actually referring to the trolls that do exist. Not all people who want characters to look they way they do in comics is a racist troll, but I was specifically referring to the racist trolls who react (and by react, I mean with hate and venom and start attacking actors, etc) based off appearances because they are racist trolls and don't really care about the comics or movies.

[Alan2099]

Yeah, in some ways, BDW beating Wright to the punch in playing a race-flipped major Batman character over 30 years ago can kind of put The Batman’s diversity in a less exceptional, though still positive, light. The original plan was for a black Two-Face and a black Robin (with a Wayans brother as Dick Grayson), right?

It kind of makes the damning indictment be on the production formula that not only declined doing a black Robin, but dropped BDW as Dent for Jones in Batman Forever - not only dropping diversity, but also a lot of dramatic potential and consistency. And it’s the production formula that I think people should be more wary of nowadays - of higher ups practicing

We can still top that.

In the 60s, the Adam West Batman series had a black Catwoman and a Cuba Joker and I don't think anybody complained.

[Scott Taylor]

We can still top that.

In the 60s, the Adam West Batman series had a black Catwoman and a Cuba Joker and I don't think anybody complained.

The horror!