Most disruptive x-characterization twists

[marhawkman]

Cyclops's progression was ... weird.

Morrison started making him more and more ... let's say morally ambiguous ... and it just kept going further and further where it seemed like he was on a slow slide to outright supervillinary. Then it just seemed like they got tired of the build up, had him turn Dark Cyclops Phoenix and kill Xavier. After that they kept talking about how Cyclops was horrible, but they weren't doing anything to show it. It felt like they got tired of the plot idea but had already committed to it and couldn't turn back.

The funny part here is that Cyclops was LESS morally ambiguous in the old days when he was willing to hang out with the Acolytes. I mean, He hangs out with them NOW, but that's because he invited them to HIS tea party, not the other way around.

[Baron of Faltine]

Mood swings happen, specially under stress and anxiety.

Sometimes fans want human characters but not really it seems

Nah I got that in the run Jean was quite stressed, just that sometimes it felt soem stuff come out if nowhere, considering she did not knew Maddie at all, except for the fact that Scott dumped her and their son like that(albeit re reading it now was also weirdly pressured in doing so by Warren and Bobby.) Still iseasy tk see that that odd characterization were less "make them more human" and more "we need to move this damn plotline as fast as we can"

[Baron of Faltine]

The funny part here is that Cyclops was LESS morally ambiguous in the old days when he was willing to hang out with the Acolytes. I mean, He hangs out with them NOW, but that's because he invited them to HIS tea party, not the other way around.

Yes, is important difference here. Now are Acolyte that have to follow Scott(and the X-men) credo not the opposite (of course does not means they do it for true...the human nature is what it is, and that was not changed by gene x)

[marhawkman]

Yes, is important difference here. Now are Acolyte that have to follow Scott(and the X-men) credo not the opposite (of course does not means they do it for true...the human nature is what it is, and that was not changed by gene x)

Yes, but, the interesting part is that, well, Cyclops is acting different. Back in the day the Acolytes thought Cyke was too "goody two shoes" for them to want to work for him... well most of them. Apparently that changed.

[Devaishwarya]

Or the short version, 'Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction is supposed to *make sense*.'

Real people are terribly inconsistent.

There's a study that showed that the part of the brain that ties into self-identity lights up a second or two *after* one performs an action, which suggests that we spend our entire life trying to come up for some lame rationalization for why what we just did was 'in-character' or not. (Since we started doing it *before* we decided whether or not that was the sort of thing we would do, if we were the sort of person we think we are/claim to be.)

And, just using my own life as an example, I suspect that we do things before we think about whether or not they are a good idea or not, as well.

I agree with this to some degree and why I've never viewed these "characterisation twists" as "disruptive".

1: They are absolutely intentional to drive the narrative and characters forward. Regardless of what some might believe the writers do a lot of planning for their story and characters...and Claremont was probably the most planned planner that ever planned.

2: These character twists and turns is one of the reasons why a lot of readers feel the X-Men are so "human and relatable". A good person is never 100% good all their lives and conversely bad people never started out evil, or stay evil. It's the experiences and circumstances in which we find ourselves that "force" us to make certain decisions, choices and take certain actions that end up defining who we are at any given point in our lives and which, for many of us, occurs to some lesser or greater degree throughout our lives.

The main difference being, this is comics/fiction and much like the soap operas of the time those experiences and circumstances and their resultant choices and actions are going to be overblown, overwrought and overdone...for the ultimate melodramatic storytelling effect.

IRL: Moira is betrayed by her husband...she divorces him and takes the house, the kids and the dog.
ICL: Moira is betrayed by her husband...she burns down the house with her husband, the kids and the dog still inside.

[Zelena]

There's differences between mood swings and personality shifts though. I mean, it can happen IRL, but it's not considered normal.

I agree… The changes must be explained by the circumstances in a way that is believable and not dropped on the poor reader without ceremony…

The difference is if the new author is interested by the character and the things that have been done to him/her previously… or not.

[Grunty]

Seeing how some of Morrison's interpretation of characters and the aftermath of House of M were brought up as examples of disruptive effect on the characterization of the X-men (for better or worse), i'm getting reminded to a sentiment i've seen expressed by several longtime readers and fans who have grown up with the old comics and first two cartoons (TAS and Evolution).

That the modern comic version of the X-men can feel very "cold" a lot of times or lacking the sense of warm friendly interactions which have made them so enjoyable under Claremont (the "soap opera" influences as some call them).

I think one way it could be put, is that the X-men come of as "corperate" now.
That the classic core team members often feel less like comrades in arms or close personal friends anymore and more like a clique sitting on the board of directors who know each other but only interact when circumstances make them cross paths. All while recruiting and dismissing "lesser" characters on a need to know basis for their current projects.

That there is no sense of continuity with the X-men team anymore. It's formed and dismissed constantly when the need arises. Because the "team" is now only a necessary part of the X-men as "organization". One that exist to handle the political and social issues of an arbitrary and undefined "mutantkind" rather than be super hero.

This is in contrast to how they appeared under Claremont and in the 90's. I recall some have called the "classic" X-men a family, but compared to the Fantastic Four i don't think that's the appropiate comparison.

I think what fits them better would be flatemates who work the same job. They had lifes and activites outside of being X-men. Activities, studies, side-jobs, etc. However because they all lived in the same "flat" these side activities could often cross over with those of other team members, resulting in human personal interactions.
Which has also been the basis for how TAS and Evolution presented them.

Hence poker nights, baseball games, someone delivering the mail, making food in the kitchen, visiting Ororo in her room while she flowers the plants, seeing Gambit as he trains unlocking handcuffs with a hairpins, Collosus when he draws pictures, Wolverine while he sobers up on the couch, Beast working in his lab and so on.

All these personal, random, familiar interactions seem gone now. Hence "cold".

And thinking back, one can point at the school being catalyst for this.

Because all of a sudden the X-men weren't a bunch of friends living in a "flat" (a mostly empty mansion of course, but serving the same narrative purpose as the appartment in many sitcoms) anymore, who were working the same job at an office.
When they weren't super heros, they were now the headmasters of a big school filled with nearly a hundred nameless backround filling students, for whom they were also personaly responcible for.

Essentialy any "off duty" interaction they would have previous had, now had to exist in the backdrop of the school and their jobs as teachers and guardians. Infact it can be argued for that their original main job of being super heros had become their side job. Lessening their role as super heros overall and turning them into an organization that has "more important things to do".

And with Decimination this job switched from a school to being the guardians and protectors of their "dying race", which evolved to being the government of a small off-shore city of mutants, being a school again and now being the government of a full blown nation.

So ever since Morrison the X-men have arguably been in a state of being "corperate" and as result the warm, fuzzy feeling of friendship that endared readers of old to them, seems to mostly only exist as memories of the "good times" to evoke when the core X-men meet by circumstance rather than proximity or connections.

[KurtW95]

Man, this is going to be tough. Post New Krakoa, pretty much all of the characters have been completely rewritten. Because think it's a radical change in itself that any heroic mutant would watch what has happened and not seek to promptly dismantle it. I'm just going to list the cases where it's been negative and the character hasn't recovered from the dramatic change in character. And still hasn't been put back on model. With the writer who started it or at least put said character on the path included. But here goes.

Jean, Scott, Hank (Morrison), Jubilee (Wood), Charles (Whedon), Sinister (Gillen), Bobby, Kitty (Bendis), Betsy (Lee), Wade (Way), Bishop (whoever had the idea to do what they did to him in Messiah CompleX), Laura (Taylor), Moira (Hickman) etc.

[Malachi]

There is certainly cases to be made on a macro level and others on a micro level.

As Grunty wrote much of the changes on a macro level have changed how and in what circumstances the characters interact now. With Krakoa there are spots and situations where the characters could and should interact. For instance nothing is stopping them from having a baseball game now. Yet we aren't doing those stories.

On a more micro level it's disenhearting to see old friends not catchup. New relationships being stressed instead. These relationships between characters, friendships more then anything, is part of the charm and longivity of the X-men line. You don't have to follow continuity to the letter but please remember and use these relationships. It gives the characters depth and more relatable.

Disruptions are plenty. For me the worst of them are when the reasons are so shallow it feels like a thinly disguised plot over character.

* Gambit becoming a horseman.
* Havok leaving Lorna for nurse Annie.

Many more that I don't want to think about.

[marhawkman]

There is certainly cases to be made on a macro level and others on a micro level.

As Grunty wrote much of the changes on a macro level have changed how and in what circumstances the characters interact now. With Krakoa there are spots and situations where the characters could and should interact. For instance nothing is stopping them from having a baseball game now. Yet we aren't doing those stories.

On a more micro level it's disenhearting to see old friends not catchup. New relationships being stressed instead. These relationships between characters, friendships more then anything, is part of the charm and longivity of the X-men line. You don't have to follow continuity to the letter but please remember and use these relationships. It gives the characters depth and more relatable.

Disruptions are plenty. For me the worst of them are when the reasons are so shallow it feels like a thinly disguised plot over character.

* Gambit becoming a horseman.
* Havok leaving Lorna for nurse Annie.

Many more that I don't want to think about.

A lot of these are things that they could do NOW... instead of "OMG Humans are teh evulz!"

I doesn't even need to be the main plot, it just... needs page time. Writers lately have really been skimping on the character development.

[BESTXMAN]

Benjamin Percy's fan fiction over on Wolverine and X-Force.

[Zelena]

I think one way it could be put, is that the X-men come of as "corperate" now.
That the classic core team members often feel less like comrades in arms or close personal friends anymore and more like a clique sitting on the board of directors who know each other but only interact when circumstances make them cross paths. All while recruiting and dismissing "lesser" characters on a need to know basis for their current projects.

That there is no sense of continuity with the X-men team anymore. It's formed and dismissed constantly when the need arises. Because the "team" is now only a necessary part of the X-men as "organization". One that exist to handle the political and social issues of an arbitrary and undefined "mutantkind" rather than be super hero.

This is in contrast to how they appeared under Claremont and in the 90's. I recall some have called the "classic" X-men a family, but compared to the Fantastic Four i don't think that's the appropiate comparison.

The difference is that the X-men represented an ideal that could include the whole humanity (and the reader too…), misfits that weren’t so different from everyone in ways that mattered (love, difficulties of living despite dramas…). The outside world could just see people with powers and be afraid of them but we, readers, were included in the private life of the X-men and were priviligied to witness their humanity. The narrative, particularly with Claremont, highlighted this point by this famous moments outside being X-men that felt so warm…

I don’t see myself in these mutants on Krakoa. True, I don’t read the stories and I don’t recognize the characters I read the stories in the past in the current run. But it isn’t just a matter of change of characterization. It’s the intention or rather lack of intention of the authors to pursue a generous ideal.

[marhawkman]

The difference is that the X-men represented an ideal that could include the whole humanity (and the reader too…), misfits that weren’t so different from everyone in ways that mattered (love, difficulties of living despite dramas…). The outside world could just see people with powers and be afraid of them but we, readers, were included in the private life of the X-men and were priviligied to witness their humanity. The narrative, particularly with Claremont, highlighted this point by this famous moments outside being X-men that felt so warm…

I don’t see myself in these mutants on Krakoa. True, I don’t read the stories and I don’t recognize the characters I read the stories in the past in the current run. But it isn’t just a matter of change of characterization. It’s the intention or rather lack of intention of the authors to pursue a generous ideal.

Yeah, as someone put it, it's about writing PEOPLE and not just super powers.

[Alan2099]

The difference is that the X-men represented an ideal that could include the whole humanity (and the reader too…), misfits that weren’t so different from everyone in ways that mattered (love, difficulties of living despite dramas…). The outside world could just see people with powers and be afraid of them but we, readers, were included in the private life of the X-men and were priviligied to witness their humanity. The narrative, particularly with Claremont, highlighted this point by this famous moments outside being X-men that felt so warm…

I don’t see myself in these mutants on Krakoa. True, I don’t read the stories and I don’t recognize the characters I read the stories in the past in the current run. But it isn’t just a matter of change of characterization. It’s the intention or rather lack of intention of the authors to pursue a generous ideal.

The message seems to have gone from "deep down, everyone's the same and we should all try to get along and accept each other for what we" are to "some people are just better than others and you'll never be happy unless you're with your own kind."

It's both a depressing and dangerous message. It also makes them hard to see as heroes when they're looking down on others and only fighting for themselves.

[jwatson]

The message seems to have gone from "deep down, everyone's the same and we should all try to get along and accept each other for what we" are to "some people are just better than others and you'll never be happy unless you're with your own kind."

It's both a depressing and dangerous message. It also makes them hard to see as heroes when they're looking down on others and only fighting for themselves.

So like every other marvel team? Except we just saw mutants saving humans in several books. I have not seen the reverse since...