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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    Variant by David Nakayama

    Like the cover, but why does she have fungi on her when fungi aren't plants.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm genuinely surprised at the Ivy fans who feel so strongly about her not killing or doing villainous stuff anymore...
    I think they don't want her killing anyone below top-level executives It's interesting that they want Ivy to be such an anti-capitalistic figure when DC and by extension, WB, are capitalist conglomerates. Though I guess WB did put out a tentpole blockbuster like Mad Max: Fury Road which makes some of the same criticisms of capitalism as Ivy, although at a safe distance by being set in a dystopian world as opposed to in the present with the heroes being pitted against CEOs.

    Maybe Discovery would be more supportive of a proper anti-hero Ivy as opposed to AT&T. Would Discovery be more invested in general in boosting Ivy's profile considering the overlap between her causes and their own initiatives and real world stakes?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think they don't want her killing anyone below top-level executives It's interesting that they want Ivy to be such an anti-capitalistic figure when DC and by extension, WB, are capitalist conglomerates. Though I guess WB did put out a tentpole blockbuster like Mad Max: Fury Road which makes some of the same criticisms of capitalism as Ivy, although at a safe distance by being set in a dystopian world as opposed to in the present with the heroes being pitted against CEOs.

    Maybe Discovery would be more supportive of a proper anti-hero Ivy as opposed to AT&T. Would Discovery be more invested in general in boosting Ivy's profile considering the overlap between her causes and their own initiatives and real world stakes?
    Lol, Wilson had Ivy kill everyone working at that industrial factory in Arkham City Villains except for that one woman cuz she looked like Harley.

    So I can see the "make Ivy a hero/anti-hero" crowd being nervous.
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  4. #34
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think they don't want her killing anyone below top-level executives It's interesting that they want Ivy to be such an anti-capitalistic figure when DC and by extension, WB, are capitalist conglomerates. Though I guess WB did put out a tentpole blockbuster like Mad Max: Fury Road which makes some of the same criticisms of capitalism as Ivy, although at a safe distance by being set in a dystopian world as opposed to in the present with the heroes being pitted against CEOs.

    Maybe Discovery would be more supportive of a proper anti-hero Ivy as opposed to AT&T. Would Discovery be more invested in general in boosting Ivy's profile considering the overlap between her causes and their own initiatives and real world stakes?
    It sounds more like when fans jumped on Tom King for having her kill a bunch of thugs during the War of Jokes and Riddles and then force him to double-back and say Riddler actually killed them.

    (I don't know if Superhero comics want to condone a character who murders CEO's whatever you opinion of corporations but that's basically how the HQ cartoon ran).
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Lol, Wilson had Ivy kill everyone working at that industrial factory in Arkham City Villains except for that one woman cuz she looked like Harley.

    So I can see the "make Ivy a hero/anti-hero" crowd being nervous.
    Maybe we need a more eco-centric Superhero who isn't so mired in being known as a Supervillain.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    Variant by David Nakayama

    This is an homage to Ivy's first appearance in Batman #181:


  6. #36
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Is that supposed to be Ivy's new costume? Or it really just coveralls?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It sounds more like when fans jumped on Tom King for having her kill a bunch of thugs during the War of Jokes and Riddles and then force him to double-back and say Riddler actually killed them.

    (I don't know if Superhero comics want to condone a character who murders CEO's whatever you opinion of corporations but that's basically how the HQ cartoon ran).

    Maybe we need a more eco-centric Superhero who isn't so mired in being known as a Supervillain.
    Sometimes I wonder how much of it is people actually wanting Ivy to become a hero or how much of it is people being uncomfortable with their favorite uwu Harley Quinn locking lips with a person who has a “by any means necessary” mentally when it comes to environmentalism.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm genuinely surprised at the Ivy fans who feel so strongly about her not killing or doing villainous stuff anymore...
    I don't necessarily think they want her to go full hero - I've seen plenty of Ivy fans that want her to be more "heroic" praise her depiction in the Harley Quinn animated series and she certainly wasn't a hero in that though she also wasn't a mass murderer targeting civilians. There's a middle ground there.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Sometimes I wonder how much of it is people actually wanting Ivy to become a hero or how much of it is people being uncomfortable with their favorite uwu Harley Quinn locking lips with a person who has a “by any means necessary” mentally when it comes to environmentalism.
    I don't think it's that - a lot of the Ivy fans that don't want her to be a true villain anymore also complain about her constantly being used as Harley's girlfriend and not being given a chance to develop depth as her own character.

  9. #39
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe we need a more eco-centric Superhero who isn't so mired in being known as a Supervillain.
    There is Swamp Thing but he did not look like this during people's childhood.


    Couple that with the push for a nobler Ivy in the comics during the No Man's Land era later leading to stories in Detective Comics, Gotham Central, Gotham Knights etc., which is probably what a lot of young fans coming off BTAS/TNBA and Batman and Robin must have first encountered while searching for Ivy stories, many people grew up thinking of her as an antihero.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    I don't think it's that - a lot of the Ivy fans that don't want her to be a true villain anymore also complain about her constantly being used as Harley's girlfriend and not being given a chance to develop depth as her own character.
    Yeah, that's a gripe I have with Ivy's development too. I'm not against Ivy and Harley being in a romantic relationship, but with Harley being the more popular character Ivy get the short-end of the development shtick since she's on panel a lot less often.

    Though, I do think Ivy development going in a hero direction makes less sense than the reverse since DC tends to follow the real world when it comes to climate change and the ecological transformation of the earth by humans. And rainforests are still shrinking last time I checked, so I don't know why Ivy would get more heroic.
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  11. #41
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    I don't necessarily think they want her to go full hero - I've seen plenty of Ivy fans that want her to be more "heroic" praise her depiction in the Harley Quinn animated series and she certainly wasn't a hero in that though she also wasn't a mass murderer targeting civilians. There's a middle ground there.
    I guess it comes down to how excessive you want to see an eco-terrorist depicted or just how much you're willing to accept an eco-terrorist being willing to commit.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Yeah, that's a gripe I have with Ivy's development too. I'm not against Ivy and Harley being in a romantic relationship, but with Harley being the more popular character Ivy get the short-end of the development shtick since she's on panel a lot less often.

    Though, I do think Ivy development going in a hero direction makes less sense than the reverse since DC tends to follow the real world when it comes to climate change and the ecological transformation of the earth by humans. And rainforests are still shrinking last time I checked, so I don't know why Ivy would get more heroic.
    I think the push for a more sympathetic Ivy is due to 4 major factors.

    1. The real-life equivalents of her targets (greedy, exploitative CEOs and billionaires, corrupt politicians etc.) have been doing some pretty evil stuff lately that has actually put a ticker on global ecological systems as per scientific research. I'm assuming in the early 90's (don't know for sure as I was too young), "ecoterrorists" used to take things too far in the other extreme and annoy people who already knew destroying the environment was bad. But now, environmental activism isn't really an impactful thing (this Earth Day, an environmental activist immolated himself in front of the Capitol to send a message but the media largely ignored it) but the other side i.e. politicians and corporates have politicized issues like climate change, conservation and even actual science so that a large chunk of people now believe that serious environmental concerns are all a hoax.

    2. She's the most intelligent female scientific genius in the DC Universe (not officially declared I think, but she can create hybridized plant people like in No Man's Land and her Cycle of Life and Death mini and also find a cure to a global pandemic in a matter of hours, like in Scott Snyder's All-Star Batman, so it's hard to think of any other DC female character on that level). People want better depictions of women in STEM as that's another hot topic off-late.

    3. The "Believe Women" movement has sympathized a lot of people towards Ivy as they feel she being ignored and vilified despite predicting the future leaves her with no choice.

    4. And yes, finally the Harlivy and LGBTQ+ stans who want both Harley and Ivy to bring out the best in each other and be somewhat near each other on the morality spectrum.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 05-02-2022 at 11:43 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think the push for a more sympathetic Ivy is due to 4 major factors.

    1. The real-life equivalents of her targets (greedy, exploitative CEOs and billionaires, corrupt politicians etc.) have been doing some pretty evil stuff lately that has actually put a ticker on global ecological systems as per scientific research. I'm assuming in the early 90's (don't know for sure as I was too young), "ecoterrorists" used to take things too far in the other extreme and annoy people who already knew destroying the environment was bad. But now, environmental activism isn't really an impactful thing (this Earth Day, an environmental activist immolated himself in front of the Capitol to send a message but the media largely ignored it) but the other side i.e. politicians and corporates have politicized issues like climate change, conservation and even actual science so that a large chunk of people now believe that serious environmental concerns are all a hoax.

    2. She's the most intelligent female scientific genius in the DC Universe (not officially declared I think, but she can create hybridized plant people like in No Man's Land and her Cycle of Life and Death mini and also find a cure to a global pandemic in a matter of hours, like in Scott Snyder's All-Star Batman, so it's hard to think of any other DC female character on that level). People want better depictions of women in STEM as that's another hot topic off-late.

    3. The "Believe Women" movement has sympathized a lot of people towards Ivy as they feel she being ignored and vilified despite predicting the future leaves her with no choice.

    4. And yes, finally the Harlivy and LGBTQ+ stans who want both Harley and Ivy to bring out the best in each other and be somewhat near each other on the morality spectrum.
    I think Shay Veritas is more of a super-scientist than Ivy but she's like a super Sci-Fi type of scientist while Ivy's always been more or less just a super-smart biologist. Like Barbara Gordon with coding/computers. But nobody outside New 52 Superman readers knows about Veritas.

  14. #44
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think the push for a more sympathetic Ivy is due to 4 major factors.

    1. The real-life equivalents of her targets (greedy, exploitative CEOs and billionaires, corrupt politicians etc.) have been doing some pretty evil stuff lately that has actually put a ticker on global ecological systems as per scientific research. I'm assuming in the early 90's (don't know for sure as I was too young), "ecoterrorists" used to take things too far in the other extreme and annoy people who already knew destroying the environment was bad. But now, environmental activism isn't really an impactful thing (this Earth Day, an environmental activist immolated himself in front of the Capitol to send a message but the media largely ignored it) but the other side i.e. politicians and corporates have politicized issues like climate change, conservation and even actual science so that a large chunk of people now believe that serious environmental concerns are all a hoax.
    I'm not old enough to weight my 2 cents on early 90s eco-terrorism either. XD

    But yeah, I can see people being uncomfortable agreeing with the motive but not the method (which IMO is what makes a good villain).

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    2. She's the most intelligent female scientific genius in the DC Universe (not officially declared I think, but she can create hybridized plant people like in No Man's Land and her Cycle of Life and Death mini and also find a cure to a global pandemic in a matter of hours, like in Scott Snyder's All-Star Batman, so it's hard to think of any other DC female character on that level). People want better depictions of women in STEM as that's another hot topic off-late.

    3. The "Believe Women" movement has sympathized a lot of people towards Ivy as they feel she being ignored and vilified despite predicting the future leaves her with no choice.

    4. And yes, finally the Harlivy and LGBTQ+ stans who want both Harley and Ivy to bring out the best in each other and be somewhat near each other on the morality spectrum.
    I've honestly never really thought about it, but you're probably right about her place in DC's scientific community of intellectuals (Marvel is usually the one who ranks intelligence ). I seem to vaguely remember a comic saying her work outclassed both Alec Holland and Woodrew.

    I think scientists in general just get a bad rap in entertainment tbh, and the gender discrepancy in media about portraying women in STEM fields is going to make it more noticeable when one is evil.
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  15. #45
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I'm not old enough to weight my 2 cents on early 90s eco-terrorism either. XD

    But yeah, I can see people being uncomfortable agreeing with the motive but not the method (which IMO is what makes a good villain).
    That's basically part of Ivy's whole deal/appeal in my opinion (beyond her characterization and visual).
    I've honestly never really thought about it, but you're probably right about her place in DC's scientific community of intellectuals (Marvel is usually the one who ranks intelligence ). I seem to vaguely remember a comic saying her work outclassed both Alec Holland and Woodrew.

    I think scientists in general just get a bad rap in entertainment tbh, and the gender discrepancy in media about portraying women in STEM fields is going to make it more noticeable when one is evil.
    This kind of reminds me in Marvel where some of the smartest women were Supervillains (Deadly Nightshade, Moonstone, etc.) before they started making all the smartest women teenagers .

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