Petey's problem is not willing to change into the person he should be

[RJT]

Have any proof of this?

As I mentioned upthread, I see them come into the shop every week and they are buying Spider-Man and Avengers comics off the racks.

You folks are so desperate for your “old Peter Parker buying dining room set with Mary Jane and filing his taxes” comics you actively wish away the existence of younger fans so Spider-Man can be yours and yours alone and he can follow your whims.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Like I said, if readers cared about Spider-Man being married, Amazing wouldn't continue to be one of Marvel's best-selling comic books. If most current readers don't care, why would new readers care? You are part of a small, but vocal, minority but have convinced yourself otherwise.

If corporate monopolies weren't a thing, Amazing wouldn't continue to be one of Marvel's best selling books.

Also, the pre-OMD era has generally sold better than post-OMD era. This has been well documented in multiple threads already.

[phantom1592]

Sounds like you're just saying things to be contrarian now, or you truly don't know or care to know anything about what makes these sort of heroes special.

Perhaps a bit.

I have friends who are into Manga and I've tried a few of them, and I'm not impressed. But to constantly see people talk about how Manga does storytelling RIGHT because their characters age and the stories end is bit ridiculous to me. Batman has existed for 80 years. Constantly published. Over 10 major blockbuster movies. Multiple television series.... Spider-man is the same... Superman... The list goes on. Then I see people talking about the 'long running Manga' that got a whole '20' years out of its story before it ended. I saw one on a list of 'Long running Manga that never finished' talking about making it to Chapter 54.... hell, Darkhawk lasted that long!

If Batman had been written like a Manga... It would have ended in 1954. If you've EVER read a Batman story that you liked... then you need to be thankful that American comics are NOT like Manga. The eternal story is why my nephews, me and my Dad can all sit around talk about Spider-man.


That said, I'm not into TOTAL stagnation. For me the sweet spot was the college years. I really can't stand 'high School' Peter anymore, but the idea of married with kids and full time jobs has zero interest for me too. The 90's were good (not counting the clone saga) and OMD shouldn't have happened... but I really did like the stories coming out of BND. So i'm somewhere in the middle of the 'great debates'.

And yet DC and Marvel frequently get outsold by manga series that have been around for a third of the time most of their properties have existed.


That applies more to the Big Two in many ways, actually.



The Mighty Morphin brand was getting stale as early as the second season. Going back to it is familiar and safe but no guarantee of success. Just look at the box office for the 2017 movie.

I agree. I was never actually a fan of Power Rangers. Always seemed like a discount Voltron to me. I was JUST on the outside of the target age group when it came out... but it still stands that for American Audiences, the idea of characters that age, grow up and pass on their mantles to new casts and build off legacy.... That's what we got. They keep coming out with different incarnations... and flare up and die out and then they go back to the basics that actually built the fan base in the beginning.

[Kevinroc]

As I mentioned upthread, I see them come into the shop every week and they are buying Spider-Man and Avengers comics off the racks.

You folks are so desperate for your “old Peter Parker buying dining room set with Mary Jane and filing his taxes” comics you actively wish away the existence of younger fans so Spider-Man can be yours and yours alone and he can follow your whims.

This is what is known as anecdotal evidence. It's not backed up by actual data.

(Buying manga? Yeah, I know that much.)

[phonogram12]

For me, the ideal adult Pete would be a science writer for the Bugle. It just seemed to be the perfect fit for him and combined his two civilian worlds perfectly. He'd be married to MJ mostly because I'm desperate to get rid of the "will they, won't they" thing. Their marriage (for the most part) would be low drama. My favorite iteration of their marriage was during the Micheline run with McFarlane way back when. They just seemed to really love and support each other and that just seemed great. I probably wouldn't advance them past 31, 32 and definitely no children for the time being.

And that's all I got.

[Agent Z]

And I think it probably would've done a better job with it than the '90s show. Pete just seemed so...stiff (for lack of a better word) on that show. A lot of the time he just seemed annoyed, too. Not exactly traits I would attribute to Peter Parker at any age.

I'd say being annoyed was a trait of Peter's in his debut and during the Ditko era. Not that I agree with your view on what Peter was like at all in that show. If anything, he was more vibrant in his civilian persona than he was in the comics at the time.

[Agent Z]

Perhaps a bit.

I have friends who are into Manga and I've tried a few of them, and I'm not impressed. But to constantly see people talk about how Manga does storytelling RIGHT because their characters age and the stories end is bit ridiculous to me. Batman has existed for 80 years. Constantly published. Over 10 major blockbuster movies. Multiple television series.... Spider-man is the same... Superman... The list goes on. Then I see people talking about the 'long running Manga' that got a whole '20' years out of its story before it ended. I saw one on a list of 'Long running Manga that never finished' talking about making it to Chapter 54.... hell, Darkhawk lasted that long!

20 years of consistent quality beats over 80 years retcons, reboots and inconsistency that make it impossible for the fan base to grow. The only reason Batman is still published is because he's owned by a media company that wants to keep using him as an IP farm in adaptations that have an eventual end. Many of these "burned out" manga you deride retain a strong following long after they ended.

i agree. I was never actually a fan of Power Rangers. Always seemed like a discount Voltron to me. I was JUST on the outside of the target age group when it came out... but it still stands that for American Audiences, the idea of characters that age, grow up and pass on their mantles to new casts and build off legacy.... That's what we got. They keep coming out with different incarnations... and flare up and die out and then they go back to the basics that actually built the fan base in the beginning.

You could not be more wrong. Power Rangers has usually failed when they go back to basics. The franchise has always been at its strongest and most successful when it moves forward and tries new things. It's certainly done better than Voltron that has had only two short lived incarnations in the past two decades.

[Agent Z]

I'm constantly amazed by how many Spider-man fans want to change everything about the character they supposedly like.

I'm amazed by how many Spider-Man fans think liking something and wanting it to change for the better are mutually exclusive.

[Matt Rat]

You folks are so desperate for your “old Peter Parker buying dining room set with Mary Jane and filing his taxes” comics you actively wish away the existence of younger fans so Spider-Man can be yours and yours alone and he can follow your whims.

Oh grow up.

Wanting Peter and MJ to advance in age or even experience is not the equivalent of performing mundane domestic chores for issues on end. There was none of that to be found in the peak years of the marriage, and by the time we got to the 2000s the likes of geniuses like Mark Miller and JMS milked the drama and burdens of a mature relationship to great acclaim and strong sales. Even Renew Your Vows didn't focus on too much trivial domestics when developing the Spider-Family.

Always seemed like a discount Voltron to me.

Voltron in itself is a discount Sentai.

[Somecrazyaussie]

As I mentioned upthread, I see them come into the shop every week and they are buying Spider-Man and Avengers comics off the racks.

You folks are so desperate for your “old Peter Parker buying dining room set with Mary Jane and filing his taxes” comics you actively wish away the existence of younger fans so Spider-Man can be yours and yours alone and he can follow your whims.

There are new readers. But not enough to stem the falling numbers. These characters are more exposed than ever, yet comics simply don't cut it in entertainment value anymore.

Comics won't exist in their current format in 10 years time. Not unless the industry acknowledges they need to change the way things are being done. Digital and OGNs are a great start. But more needs to be done.

[exile001]

Manga is overrated. 'growing characters' is overrated. Manga may be popular with some fans... but until they have product that lasts 60-80 years, they don't compare. They're the epitome of 'burn bright and burn out'. Closest American-ish thing we have is Power Rangers that has had about 30 different incarnations... but the 'new' stuff never compares, and every time they start a new toyline or comic series... it's always right back to 'Mighty Morphin'.

Please tell me you're not serious? Manga is just comics from Japan, where they are comparatively a bigger market than in the US and have a much wider and more varied range of styles and genres readily available.

They aren't new. Let me guess, it only counts in your head when it's in the US?

Don't be threatened by more comics just because they're not the comics you already read. Marvel and DC should absolutely be taking cues from Japanese comics. Maybe then they'd be able to actually sell comics in decent numbers while Marvel movies are one of if not the biggest franchise in the box office.

Also, Marvel's entire foundation was growing characters. It is why they were so popular in the 60's that their style of soap-opera mixed with superheroics fundamentally changed how comic stories were constructed.

[marhawkman]

Please tell me you're not serious? Manga is just comics from Japan, where they are comparatively a bigger market than in the US and have a much wider and more varied range of styles and genres readily available.

They aren't new. Let me guess, it only counts in your head when it's in the US?

Don't be threatened by more comics just because they're not the comics you already read. Marvel and DC should absolutely be taking cues from Japanese comics. Maybe then they'd be able to actually sell comics in decent numbers while Marvel movies are one of if not the biggest franchise in the box office.

Also, Marvel's entire foundation was growing characters. It is why they were so popular in the 60's that their style of soap-opera mixed with superheroics fundamentally changed how comic stories were constructed.

Yeah the whole idea of the shared universe having shared history... now it's I dunno what it is now. :/ It's like the want to dump the in-universe history?

[phonogram12]

I'd say being annoyed was a trait of Peter's in his debut and during the Ditko era. Not that I agree with your view on what Peter was like at all in that show. If anything, he was more vibrant in his civilian persona than he was in the comics at the time.

Yeah, reading through his earlier stories, I honestly wasn't a fan of much until Romita took over. He became far more likeable from that point on. And I honestly wasn't reading much Spider-Man during the '90s. For me, once McFarlane left Amazing, most runs didn't click with me until Jenkins and JMS. Still, Pete seemed pretty stiff as a board to me during that cartoon. All he ever seemed to do was complain.

[Huntsman Spider]

I'm amazed by how many Spider-Man fans think liking something and wanting it to change for the better are mutually exclusive.

20 years of consistent quality beats over 80 years retcons, reboots and inconsistency that make it impossible for the fan base to grow. The only reason Batman is still published is because he's owned by a media company that wants to keep using him as an IP farm in adaptations that have an eventual end. Many of these "burned out" manga you deride retain a strong following long after they ended.




You could not be more wrong. Power Rangers has usually failed when they go back to basics. The franchise has always been at its strongest and most successful when it moves forward and tries new things. It's certainly done better than Voltron that has had only two short lived incarnations in the past two decades.

As a Power Rangers fan and a Spider-Man fan, I salute you.

[PCN24454]

In what sense, if you don't mind me asking?

(Late reply, but here goes.)

Most of the events in the run feel like they happen in spite of his input rather than because of it: surviving the Spider Avatar, Aunt May finding out his secret, losing the family home...

Him pretending that John, JJJ's son, was Spider-Man left a bad impression on me as well. He wasn't allowed to win, just survive encounters with most of his supervillains. Even when he beat Doc Ock, JMS had to have Ock kill one of the cops, so that Peter could beat him up in anger.

That being said, it isn't that different from previous interpretations of Spidey. It just had more of a "school story" focus because he was a teacher.