David Xanatos (Gargoyles) vs. John Marcone (Dresden Files)

[Basara]

Marcone provides one other thing they want - stability. If Xanatos managed to unseat him as the Baron of Chicago, no way would he be content to stop there. The entities of the Nevernever like a status quo in place when dealing with mortals, and Xanatos would throw that right out the window.

This is a case where the Courts have a vested interest in keeping Marcone in place.

Why? Xanatos is perfectly content to maintain status quo with both the Clan and Oberon's Court by the end of the series. He's actually more stable than Marcone. In addition, Alexander is the grandson of a version of Titiana herself and possess tremendous magical potential. If anything, Mab would salivate at the possibility of having her great-grandson, taught by no one less than Puck himself, at the head of Marcone's territory.

And since Mab can command a certain security head in his Jolly Saint Nick persona (also revealed in Skin Game), Marcone is more likely to find himself without mystical allies or protection of any sort if he tries to negotiate with the Fae for assitance because Mab would gain more with Marcone gone and Xanatos in his place.

Sorry man, Marcone's boned in so many ways in this fight.

[wjowski]

Marcone provides one other thing they want - stability. If Xanatos managed to unseat him as the Baron of Chicago, no way would he be content to stop there. The entities of the Nevernever like a status quo in place when dealing with mortals, and Xanatos would throw that right out the window.

This is a case where the Courts have a vested interest in keeping Marcone in place.

Not really. Xanatos would be willing to strike a deal just like Marcone would.

[master of read]

I don't know if he has the Phoenix Gate anymore but if not he does have access to time shenanigans via Anubis.

nope. xanatos never really had the the phoenix gate to begin with. demona had half of it with goliath having the other. they used the whole gate for the time paradox during his wedding before goliath keep it himself. demona and macbeth then stole the gate for the archmage and goliath re-took it only to send it randomly in time after puck gave him that weird vision dream.

it shows up again during the "time dancer" arc but as far as i know, its still jumping through time randomly.

[Dalak]

Why? Xanatos is perfectly content to maintain status quo with both the Clan and Oberon's Court by the end of the series. He's actually more stable than Marcone. In addition, Alexander is the grandson of a version of Titiana herself and possess tremendous magical potential. If anything, Mab would salivate at the possibility of having her great-grandson, taught by no one less than Puck himself, at the head of Marcone's territory.

And since Mab can command a certain security head in his Jolly Saint Nick persona (also revealed in Skin Game), Marcone is more likely to find himself without mystical allies or protection of any sort if he tries to negotiate with the Fae for assitance because Mab would gain more with Marcone gone and Xanatos in his place.

Sorry man, Marcone's boned in so many ways in this fight.

Actually Mab would be more likely to oppose Xanatos for his ties to Titania. Cold Days shows how these Queens relate to each other - Constant Opposition. We don't know Mab's relationship to Puck either, as with all the faery folks winding up real (Redcap, Sith, Kringle, etc) Puck's likely there too. But he strikes me as Summer and thus opposed to Mab. Also I think that whatever hold Mab has on Kringle won't affect Odin's deal with Marcone, as the protocol there was also specified.

Then there's something folks might have missed - If John gets Mab's backing he gets Dresden along for the ride, and I don't think he'd want Xanatos taking over his town in a 'the evil you know' sort of way at the least. That gives 2 large-scale military powers on top of what Dresden brings in directly and the Wild Hunt if Dresden/Mab feels like bringing up the Erlking again. That's also not counting any favors Marcone might be able to call in from the various powers he acts as a Bank for in Skin Game: The real Dracula, the Raith's, Ferrovax the Dragon, and Hades are a few named ones out of 13. This man deals with more than a few things known as Gods, even if they aren't on the level of some other fictional divinities they are immortal at least.

Mind you I'm not sure who's going to win this, but I don't think it's nearly as one-sided as all that.

E: Now that I think about it, Xanatos's crew causing trouble in Chicago will lead to Dresden's involvement regardless of Mab or Marcone's shenanigans.

[Primetime Harder]

Not really. Xanatos would be willing to strike a deal just like Marcone would.

...And would break it half a nanosecond after discovering a Macguffin that would give him enough power to overthrow a powerful signatory. Marcone, on the other hand, would be more likely to keep such an object as leverage, or offer to put it in his vault for someone. He plays a much better long game than Xanatos.

Now that I think about it, Xanatos's crew causing trouble in Chicago will lead to Dresden's involvement regardless of Mab or Marcone's shenanigans.

Yeah, this. Xanatos' guys might be able to handle some gargoyles if they come loaded for bear. But a full-on Wizard of the White Council? Noooope.

[Basara]

Actually Mab would be more likely to oppose Xanatos for his ties to Titania. Cold Days shows how these Queens relate to each other - Constant Opposition. We don't know Mab's relationship to Puck either, as with all the faery folks winding up real (Redcap, Sith, Kringle, etc) Puck's likely there too. But he strikes me as Summer and thus opposed to Mab. Also I think that whatever hold Mab has on Kringle won't affect Odin's deal with Marcone, as the protocol there was also specified.

Ah, that's right. Titiana is Summer. For some reason, I was misremebering her as Winter. That changes things a bit, but not much.

The point still stands that Xanatos is just as willing to deal with Fae as Marcone, so the Fae still aren't likely to get involved. Another thing that was revealed in Cold Days are the jobs of Winter and Summer. If Mab would get involved, she would have to play things very, very closely as this involves the very grandson of a version of Titiana. Basically, she can't piss Titiana off, or it will be all out war between Winter and Summer. Mab knows this means extinction for all.

I can't think of a way Mab is willing to face total anhiliation of everything for Marcone. She would probably allow Odin to use his security force as Marcone has hired them to do this for him, but as for Odin himself, I'd be willing to bet that Mab would come up with a suitably enjoyable little task for Jolly Saint Nick to do that would keep him occupied until this mortal dispute plays itself out.

Then there's something folks might have missed - If John gets Mab's backing he gets Dresden along for the ride, and I don't think he'd want Xanatos taking over his town in a 'the evil you know' sort of way at the least. That gives 2 large-scale military powers on top of what Dresden brings in directly and the Wild Hunt if Dresden/Mab feels like bringing up the Erlking again.

And on the Harry Dresden front, Xanatos has won the respect of the Clan and is allied with them. One meeting with Golaith, a being Harry would immediately identify with, and Harry ain't helping Marcone. Point blank, Xanatos is a former convicted thief, but Marcone is and always will be a monster. Harry and Marcone each know they will go to war someday, and if Harry sees a better option than Marcone, he'll back that player any day of the week. Xanatos is a better option than Marcone.

So, if Marcone does find a way to coerce Mab to get involved, she'll probably send Harry to help. This means Marcone now has to divide his attention between a very capable opponent and a wizard ally whom would love nothing more than to see Marcone burn in Hades and whom has demonstrated his ability to subvert an ally's plans. How exactly is this ending well for Marcone? It isn't. Marcone's boned.

That's also not counting any favors Marcone might be able to call in from the various powers he acts as a Bank for in Skin Game: The real Dracula, the Raith's, Ferrovax the Dragon, and Hades are a few named ones out of 13. This man deals with more than a few things known as Gods, even if they aren't on the level of some other fictional divinities they are immortal at least.

They bank with him because he can keep their stuff as secure as possible in the human world, not because they owe him favors. They are a non-factor whom owe him nothing.

[Dalak]

...And would break it half a nanosecond after discovering a Macguffin that would give him enough power to overthrow a powerful signatory. Marcone, on the other hand, would be more likely to keep such an object as leverage, or offer to put it in his vault for someone. He plays a much better long game than Xanatos.


Yeah, this. Xanatos' guys might be able to handle some gargoyles if they come loaded for bear. But a full-on Wizard of the White Council? Noooope.

Actually any half-way decent wizard on his employ could Hex those Steel Clan robots or Xanatos' personal suit, and he more than has the resources to hire several. That will nullify practically any technological tricks Xanatos might bring to the table quite easily.

[Dalak]

Ah, that's right. Titiana is Summer. For some reason, I was misremebering her as Winter. That changes things a bit, but not much.

The point still stands that Xanatos is just as willing to deal with Fae as Marcone, so the Fae still aren't likely to get involved. Another thing that was revealed in Cold Days are the jobs of Winter and Summer. If Mab would get involved, she would have to play things very, very closely as this involves the very grandson of a version of Titiana. Basically, she can't piss Titiana off, or it will be all out war between Winter and Summer. Mab knows this means extinction for all.

I can't think of a way Mab is willing to face total anhiliation of everything for Marcone. She would probably allow Odin to use his security force as Marcone has hired them to do this for him, but as for Odin himself, I'd be willing to bet that Mab would come up with a suitably enjoyable little task for Jolly Saint Nick to do that would keep him occupied until this mortal dispute plays itself out.

I don't see how sparing 100-200 troops to crush the interloper trying to invade from another dimension would be risking total annihilation. And why would Dresden-Titania care one whit about the grandchild of another her who's far more vain and self serving. They have no responsibilities unlike the Dresden fae, and Winter nor Summer is going to side with these folks that are Outsiders of an entirely different sort. Given that logic it's kinda Mab's JOB to fight these folks.

And on the Harry Dresden front, Xanatos has won the respect of the Clan and is allied with them. One meeting with Golaith, a being Harry would immediately identify with, and Harry ain't helping Marcone. Point blank, Xanatos is a former convicted thief, but Marcone is and always will be a monster. Harry and Marcone each know they will go to war someday, and if Harry sees a better option than Marcone, he'll back that player any day of the week. Xanatos is a better option than Marcone.

So, if Marcone does find a way to coerce Mab to get involved, she'll probably send Harry to help. This means Marcone now has to divide his attention between a very capable opponent and a wizard ally whom would love nothing more than to see Marcone burn in Hades and whom has demonstrated his ability to subvert an ally's plans. How exactly is this ending well for Marcone? It isn't. Marcone's boned.

If you think Harry is helping Xanatos after soulgazing him (Something he will do before throwing in with him on Goliath's say-so) then you have another thing coming. Especially considering his other allies and past mistakes. Creating a squad of killers before enhancing them, all the other abominations he's sponsored, the constant betrayals, the Laws of Magic he's broken . . .

Marcone might be bad but he hasn't tried to mentally dominate folks, messed with Time, or brought back a twisted abomination of life (Coldstone) for profit. In fact for the kid-redemption of Xanatos, Marcone has his own buried good.

E: For that matter, why are the Gargoyles helping Xanatos take over Chicago?

They bank with him because he can keep their stuff as secure as possible in the human world, not because they owe him favors. They are a non-factor whom owe him nothing.

"Half off storage fees" when dealing with stuff of this magnitude is worth more than you're making out by far, same with "I'll owe you one" style favors. The fact is because he works with them, he can bargain with them and gather more resources.

[Basara]

Actually any half-way decent wizard on his employ could Hex those Steel Clan robots or Xanatos' personal suit, and he more than has the resources to hire several. That will nullify practically any technological tricks Xanatos might bring to the table quite easily.

Wizards can hex tech when they are in range. Given the Steel Clan robots are flying robotic jets with long range weapons, that simply isn't happening.

I don't see how sparing 100-200 troops to crush the interloper trying to invade from another dimension would be risking total annihilation. And why would Dresden-Titania care one whit about the grandchild of another her who's far more vain and self serving. They have no responsibilities unlike the Dresden fae, and Winter nor Summer is going to side with these folks that are Outsiders of an entirely different sort. Given that logic it's kinda Mab's JOB to fight these folks.

Um, Xanatos isn't an outsider. Nowhere in the OP does it say Xanatos is invading from another dimension. It's a scenario of two men in two cities trying to take the other's empire, etc.

That said, because it was Titiana and she is uber-powerful, I was treating both as one and the same. Let's say they are two seperate entities then. I'm still not seeing a reason for Mab to get involved other than coersion, and if she is coerced, she simply asks Harry to represent her.

If you think Harry is helping Xanatos after soulgazing him (Something he will do before throwing in with him on Goliath's say-so) then you have another thing coming. Especially considering his other allies and past mistakes. Creating a squad of killers before enhancing them, all the other abominations he's sponsored, the constant betrayals, the Laws of Magic he's broken . . .

Marcone might be bad but he hasn't tried to mentally dominate folks, messed with Time, or brought back a twisted abomination of life (Coldstone) for profit. In fact for the kid-redemption of Xanatos, Marcone has his own buried good.

Yes, Harry will. Why? Because in addition to the bad, he will see that Xanatos has almost lost his wife twice to magical powers he shouldn't have tampered with, helped Cold Stone regain his existence and returned his long lost love to him, protected his son from none other than Oberon himself with every resource he had, and helped the Gargoyles gain acceptance in human society.

Also, Xanatos isn't a degenerate whom sells poison that destroys entire neighborhoods and ruthlessly murders anyone whom gets in his way. He's basically a saint next to Marcone.

E: For that matter, why are the Gargoyles helping Xanatos take over Chicago?

Xanatos: "Goliath, will you please help me get rid of one of the worst mobsters in the entire United States."

Goliath (after Lex does his research on Marcone): "When do we start?"

"Half off storage fees" when dealing with stuff of this magnitude is worth more than you're making out by far, same with "I'll owe you one" style favors. The fact is because he works with them, he can bargain with them and gather more resources.

You really think this would work? Entities of this magnitude of power aren't the least bit worried about price or generally care about favors. Xanatos can just as easily provide these as well. The main selling point would be security. To all of these individuals, the same thought would occur: "If Marcone is incapable of securing my material, then I'll deal with the person whom is."

[Slade1]

...And would break it half a nanosecond after discovering a Macguffin that would give him enough power to overthrow a powerful signatory. Marcone, on the other hand, would be more likely to keep such an object as leverage, or offer to put it in his vault for someone. He plays a much better long game than Xanatos.


Yeah, this. Xanatos' guys might be able to handle some gargoyles if they come loaded for bear. But a full-on Wizard of the White Council? Noooope.

Wizards of the White would be dealt with by Oberon or his children.

[Tami]

It's been a very long time since I last saw Gargoyles, so my memory/my knowledge if Xanatos is a bit sketchy.

Marcone is not to be underestimated. He's brilliant, has made a few mistakes in the past but learns from them quickly. He's ruthless, a master businessman, a master manipulator, a master at Prep and has connections everywhere. The prepwork involved in what he did in Skin Games, the long con he pulled, was nothing short of amazing. He's is also a fighter, has been known to get into the fray and fight as well as lead.

He understands magic, knows how to get people to work for him that can do magic, how to counter magic. One thing Marcone can't do himself, however, is magic.

One thing Marcone is known for is compassion towards children. As much of a criminal as he is, he has certain moral standards. Not to mention the work Marcone has done in the fight against the Formor invasion - at times for a profit, but still.

If Xanatos came to Chicago and tried to take it over, if he tried to get the Gargoyles involved, if they took a good look at comparing the two, I'm not so sure they would side with Xanatos. Especially if they would also be facing Dresden and the White Court and Mab.

[Dalak]

Wizards can hex tech when they are in range. Given the Steel Clan robots are flying robotic jets with long range weapons, that simply isn't happening.

When Wizards aren't on the water (Unlike Cold Days), their Hex range increases dramatically. The Steel Clan's weapon accuracy on the other hand is comparable to Stormtroopers IIRC.

Um, Xanatos isn't an outsider. Nowhere in the OP does it say Xanatos is invading from another dimension. It's a scenario of two men in two cities trying to take the other's empire, etc.

That said, because it was Titiana and she is uber-powerful, I was treating both as one and the same. Let's say they are two seperate entities then. I'm still not seeing a reason for Mab to get involved other than coersion, and if she is coerced, she simply asks Harry to represent her.

You mentioned how having the grandkid of an alternate version of Titania would affect her, but that child is proof that they come from another reality with another Titania and all that implies. I agree that his ties with Fey from outside their reality will affect Mab, I just think it will cause her to throw in with Marcone if asked rather than work with these new reckless and self-absorbed fops.

Yes, Harry will. Why? Because in addition to the bad, he will see that Xanatos has almost lost his wife twice to magical powers he shouldn't have tampered with, helped Cold Stone regain his existence and returned his long lost love to him, protected his son from none other than Oberon himself with every resource he had, and helped the Gargoyles gain acceptance in human society.

Also, Xanatos isn't a degenerate whom sells poison that destroys entire neighborhoods and ruthlessly murders anyone whom gets in his way. He's basically a saint next to Marcone.

You are forgetting that this man had the freaking Shroud of Turin stolen to fix a young girl he'd almost killed decades ago, has reaffirmed to Harry his true feelings when rescued from The Island by asking about Ivy first, has worked to protect Chicago in the time Harry was gone, took over organized crime in Chicago to make it less harmful overall, and several other things that show he's not the typical monster as you are painting him. Harry's going to ignore that because Xanatos made MORE abominations unto Life and has no remorse for many other past actions?

Xanatos' response to Goliath was simply because he helped his son, as far as I recall he never tried to fix any mistakes he made with people that weren't tied into that. In fact I don't think for a minute that he's not responsible for murders considering he's created The Pack and how blase he was about killing the Gargoyles before. He's at least as much a monster as Marcone is in different ways.

Above all Marcone is predictable, where Xanatos isn't. Harry went through this sort of thing in the debate with Mab and Maeve, and he came out on Mab's side before Nemesis came up - The reliable evil he knew as opposed to the unpredictable one he didn't know as well.

Xanatos: "Goliath, will you please help me get rid of one of the worst mobsters in the entire United States."

Goliath (after Lex does his research on Marcone): "When do we start?"

Because Goliath is going to abandon his protective duties to go to Chicago? They'd probably wind up more of a Rear-Guard than an offensive group to counter Marcone's work in New York.

You really think this would work? Entities of this magnitude of power aren't the least bit worried about price or generally care about favors. Xanatos can just as easily provide these as well. The main selling point would be security. To all of these individuals, the same thought would occur: "If Marcone is incapable of securing my material, then I'll deal with the person whom is."

Yes actually, because Mab, Odin, and Hades have shown they are quite interested in Favors, and have mentioned that's how the game works for folks at that level in that world. They know Marcone and Xanatos has shown how untrustworthy he is on many occasions. When has Marcone? Their stuff isn't safe if the guy holding it is going to loot some important artifact he thinks he can use to protect his son/get immortal/get more Profit than just holding it.

Oh, if money/possessions didn't matter to them (A Gold Hoarding Dragon, and Hades the uber-collector for example) why do they gather them and have such things stored in a vault?

[Surtur]

I mean, if you are allowing him to call in favors and Marcone is willing to do anything to win..yeah, I'm sure there are plenty he could barter with. Whether he is selling his soul or something else, it doesn't matter, but if he really did not care about his own fate after everything is said and done he could get the right stuff to take out Xanatos. The only problem is he'll probably end up somewhere very unpleasant once it comes time to pay his bill to the Fae or whoever he makes a deal with. But Marcone normally isn't stupid enough to enter into deals like that, since he knows he could literally spend all of eternity as one of Lea's dogs or something.(though speaking of Lea, where the hell has she been?)

Though that is less prep time and more just a case of who has the better friends.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

Adults who willingly purchase drugs and end up having tragic lives as a result are not people I feel all that sorry for in many cases. Marcone being part of that on the highest level ain't so bad, and prostitution should be legal and regulated anyway. It's been legal in Sweden for 70 + years. People who willngly choose to go into that world, learn the rules and get killed as a result knew it was a possibility. That is where .arcone is "bad". No kids. No innocent to some extent and old mobster style rules. Marcone is the least 'evil' guy' you could have in such a position. Dude is just awful to the likes of Murph and Dresden because one was pure cop until she went sorta dark but is pure cop and the other never thought of things to grey beyond occasional naïve one offs until he got dead and not so dead. Point is there is no way Harry and other big names won't go against some up start punk trying to muscle in. Less we forget Formor muscling in has kind of divided thin. Maybe David gets some coin help but no one else is throwing their lot in with him. Also, I predict Harry somehow managing to get Black staff involved. After all, David has broken the laws of magic multiple times...

[wjowski]

Adults who willingly purchase drugs and end up having tragic lives as a result are not people I feel all that sorry for in many cases. Marcone being part of that on the highest level ain't so bad, and prostitution should be legal and regulated anyway. It's been legal in Sweden for 70 + years. People who willngly choose to go into that world, learn the rules and get killed as a result knew it was a possibility. That is where .arcone is "bad". No kids. No innocent to some extent and old mobster style rules. Marcone is the least 'evil' guy' you could have in such a position. Dude is just awful to the likes of Murph and Dresden because one was pure cop until she went sorta dark but is pure cop and the other never thought of things to grey beyond occasional naïve one offs until he got dead and not so dead. Point is there is no way Harry and other big names won't go against some up start punk trying to muscle in. Less we forget Formor muscling in has kind of divided thin. Maybe David gets some coin help but no one else is throwing their lot in with him. Also, I predict Harry somehow managing to get Black staff involved. After all, David has broken the laws of magic multiple times...

The 'no kids' thing is bullshit. Drug dealers who don't start with kids end up with nobody to sell to.