Scott Snyder's retcon of Mr. Freeze & Nora

[Lightning Rider]

Two questions:

1. Did you like it? Would you like to see some aspect of it in an adaptation? Or did you hate it?

2. I've read this was reversed/"corrected" in subsequent stories. Where/when did this happen?

[Frontier]

Did not care for it at all. Basically just makes Freeze your typical Arkham loony and removes all his pathos.

In Rebirth Snyder brought Freeze back and never mentioned Nora wasn't his wife, so that pretty much "corrected" it as far as current comics are concerned.

[Rufio]

Wait, what are we talking about?

When Loebdell changed Freeze and Nora’s story back in Red Hood and the Outlaws? If so, hated it. As an else worlds story that will never have influence on the main timeline, it’s fine. But other than that, I though it sucked.

Missed Rebirth for the most part, but Snyder fixed it? Good, good.

[Alpha]

The Snyder retcon was in Batman Volume 2 annual #1, written by Snyder and James Tynion IV

Nora was a woman frozen in ice long ago, and Victor made up the story of knowing her and being her husband.

This is another case of changing things up just to be dufferent. I don't think it was necessary, that's all.

[Rufio]

The Snyder retcon was in Batman Volume 2 annual #1, written by Snyder and James Tynion IV

Nora was a woman frozen in ice long ago, and Victor made up the story of knowing her and being her husband.

This is another case of changing things up just to be dufferent. I don't think it was necessary, that's all.

Oh? Is that what happened? I could have sworn it was Red Hood. Getting my stories mixed up. Still not a fan of that change. There was no reason to change their backstory.

[bat39]

The Snyder retcon was in Batman Volume 2 annual #1, written by Snyder and James Tynion IV

Nora was a woman frozen in ice long ago, and Victor made up the story of knowing her and being her husband.

This is another case of changing things up just to be dufferent. I don't think it was necessary, that's all.

Yeah, pretty much this.

It was an interesting take but kinda a ''change things for the sake of changing things'' situation. Much like retconning Jason from being someone caught stealing the Batmobile tyres to someone stealing medical supplies from Leslie Thompkins.

[exile001]

There's a huge flaw in the Batman: The Animate Series origin's longevity.

It completely revamped the character for BTAS and made him compelling, but he wasn't intended to be around for long. A few episodes over many seasons/years and by the Sub-Zero movie it was played out. Then he became a head in a jar.

Mr. Freeze 5-10 years after first meeting Batman is either still trying to revive his wife or furious she died. At some point this motivation needs to change or evolve because it's very limiting. The BTAS origin was brought into continuity in the late 90's but Freeze still bumped along as an angry ice-themed villain who occasionally mentioned his dead wife for well over a decade before Snyder revamped him.

In the end, it didn't really help the character in the comics because it's a serialised medium.

Changing Victor to obsessing over someone he didn't know does open more possibilities (admittedly some very icky) but broadens the scope of his motive and fixated him on Bruce Wayne/Wayne Industries, something I like Bruce occasionally doing as he makes himself the target and knows he can handle it.

Was it perfect? Nope, but I appreciate trying to make Mr. Freeze into something more and give him a more complex ongoing motivation than perpetually angry his wife is ill/dead.

That said, Victor and Nora: A Gotham Love Story was delightfully charming.

The less said about the atrocity Tomasi delivered to Nora the better.

[thwhtGuardian]

There's a huge flaw in the Batman: The Animate Series origin's longevity.

It completely revamped the character for BTAS and made him compelling, but he wasn't intended to be around for long. A few episodes over many seasons/years and by the Sub-Zero movie it was played out. Then he became a head in a jar.

Mr. Freeze 5-10 years after first meeting Batman is either still trying to revive his wife or furious she died. At some point this motivation needs to change or evolve because it's very limiting. The BTAS origin was brought into continuity in the late 90's but Freeze still bumped along as an angry ice-themed villain who occasionally mentioned his dead wife for well over a decade before Snyder revamped him.

In the end, it didn't really help the character in the comics because it's a serialised medium.

Changing Victor to obsessing over someone he didn't know does open more possibilities (admittedly some very icky) but broadens the scope of his motive and fixated him on Bruce Wayne/Wayne Industries, something I like Bruce occasionally doing as he makes himself the target and knows he can handle it.

Was it perfect? Nope, but I appreciate trying to make Mr. Freeze into something more and give him a more complex ongoing motivation than perpetually angry his wife is ill/dead.

That said, Victor and Nora: A Gotham Love Story was delightfully charming.

The less said about the atrocity Tomasi delivered to Nora the better.

It was an attempt to give Freeze more possibilities of stories because as you said the storyline from the Animated series pretty much boxes him into being a character you either can't use that often or one where he's a sort of anti-hero like Catwoman...but it's not an alternative that worked well because it just turns him into a generic lunatic with ice powers which is something that isn't interesting.

[PurpleGlovez]

It was implicitly retconned in All-Star where I believe they actually do mention Nora being his wife. Either way, we know it was done away with in Tomasi's Detective run. There was this edict in the New 52 that every origin story had to be different than the "classic", definitive origins in order to justify the new continuity and throw surprises at the reader. It was an abysmal idea and has thankfully been totally forgotten. See: Two-Face's origin involving the McKillen sisters which has once again been replaced with the Maroni story.

[Lightning Rider]

Thanks for the responses.

When I first read it, my first instinct was - how could you ruin the beautiful backstory and undo such an established element of the character?

But then I slowly began to think - this fixes the issue of Freeze essentially being the good guy in the story. We all love a sympathetic villain, but it doesn't really make sense to go full villain all the time if all you want is to find a cure for your wife. That's a mission that Bruce's wealth and technology could easily contribute to, and as people mentioned, it becomes a little played out fairly quickly. But with this change, Freeze's subjective experience is still one based in romantic affection - it just doesn't comport with reality. I agree there are more opportunities there.

If we get a live action Mr. Freeze adaptation in one of Reeves' next movies, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar twist is introduced. Personally wouldn't mind an in-between; maybe Victor and Nora were coworkers but never together, and in her coma he develops a false sense of entitlement. Maybe his real wife Nora passed away and he projected his fantasies of her resurrection onto an unrelated frozen woman. It can still be tragic, but I just like the element of Freeze somehow taking it a step further than he should.

[Konja7]

If we get a live action Mr. Freeze adaptation in one of Reeves' next movies, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar twist is introduced. Personally wouldn't mind an in-between; maybe Victor and Nora were coworkers but never together, and in her coma he develops a false sense of entitlement. Maybe his real wife Nora passed away and he projected his fantasies of her resurrection onto an unrelated frozen woman. It can still be tragic, but I just like the element of Freeze somehow taking it a step further than he should.

I think they will likely mantain Mr. Freeze tragedy for a live action movie, since it's a pretty popular and compelling story.

Comic is the media where Victor's motivation of saving Nora becomes an issue, because it doesn't fit the serialized and unending nature of comics.

[Frontier]

There's a huge flaw in the Batman: The Animate Series origin's longevity.

It completely revamped the character for BTAS and made him compelling, but he wasn't intended to be around for long. A few episodes over many seasons/years and by the Sub-Zero movie it was played out. Then he became a head in a jar.

Mr. Freeze 5-10 years after first meeting Batman is either still trying to revive his wife or furious she died. At some point this motivation needs to change or evolve because it's very limiting. The BTAS origin was brought into continuity in the late 90's but Freeze still bumped along as an angry ice-themed villain who occasionally mentioned his dead wife for well over a decade before Snyder revamped him.

In the end, it didn't really help the character in the comics because it's a serialised medium.

Changing Victor to obsessing over someone he didn't know does open more possibilities (admittedly some very icky) but broadens the scope of his motive and fixated him on Bruce Wayne/Wayne Industries, something I like Bruce occasionally doing as he makes himself the target and knows he can handle it.

Was it perfect? Nope, but I appreciate trying to make Mr. Freeze into something more and give him a more complex ongoing motivation than perpetually angry his wife is ill/dead.

The only real difference seems to be that the woman he's obsessing over isn't even actually his wife. I think the only thing that really adds is the sense that he's just as crazy as some of the other Rogues, and less deserving of sympathy when Batman stops him.

And they pretty much forgot about the connection with Bruce after that first story (remember how many Bat-Villains Snyder established at working at Wayne Enterprises? Freeze, Riddler, Ivy, Hatter, etc, it was like a mini villain factory).

It was implicitly retconned in All-Star where I believe they actually do mention Nora being his wife. Either way, we know it was done away with in Tomasi's Detective run. There was this edict in the New 52 that every origin story had to be different than the "classic", definitive origins in order to justify the new continuity and throw surprises at the reader. It was an abysmal idea and has thankfully been totally forgotten. See: Two-Face's origin involving the McKillen sisters which has once again been replaced with the Maroni story.

Did All-Star establish it was Maroni again? I forget. Also Maroni is in Nightwing now so I was actually wondering if it was still canon he scarred Two-Face.

Thanks for the responses.

When I first read it, my first instinct was - how could you ruin the beautiful backstory and undo such an established element of the character?

But then I slowly began to think - this fixes the issue of Freeze essentially being the good guy in the story. We all love a sympathetic villain, but it doesn't really make sense to go full villain all the time if all you want is to find a cure for your wife. That's a mission that Bruce's wealth and technology could easily contribute to, and as people mentioned, it becomes a little played out fairly quickly. But with this change, Freeze's subjective experience is still one based in romantic affection - it just doesn't comport with reality. I agree there are more opportunities there.

If we get a live action Mr. Freeze adaptation in one of Reeves' next movies, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar twist is introduced. Personally wouldn't mind an in-between; maybe Victor and Nora were coworkers but never together, and in her coma he develops a false sense of entitlement. Maybe his real wife Nora passed away and he projected his fantasies of her resurrection onto an unrelated frozen woman. It can still be tragic, but I just like the element of Freeze somehow taking it a step further than he should.

Well, the point to me is that Freeze is so razor-focused on Nora and saving her that he doesn't care about anything else, and if he can't come up with a beneficial solution that doesn't come at the cost of something than Bruce probably couldn't, which is the conundrum. He's not a typical Gotham Supervillain but like with, say, Ivy his motive is more positive than his methods which is why Batman has to stop him.

Unless you want to keep emphasizing Freeze as this deluded guy (which I think really takes away from any kind of likeability to the character) instead of someone driven to extremes by a passionate love, probably the only "warmth" he still has left, I think it's worth keeping the traditional Nora origin.

Although now I'm reminded of Preston Payne's "marriage" with a mannequin.

[Lightning Rider]

Well, the point to me is that Freeze is so razor-focused on Nora and saving her that he doesn't care about anything else, and if he can't come up with a beneficial solution that doesn't come at the cost of something than Bruce probably couldn't, which is the conundrum. He's not a typical Gotham Supervillain but like with, say, Ivy his motive is more positive than his methods which is why Batman has to stop him.

Unless you want to keep emphasizing Freeze as this deluded guy (which I think really takes away from any kind of likeability to the character) instead of someone driven to extremes by a passionate love, probably the only "warmth" he still has left, I think it's worth keeping the traditional Nora origin.

Although now I'm reminded of Preston Payne's "marriage" with a mannequin.

Is all Freeze wants a quiet lab to work on a cure with some funding?

[Gaius]

I agree with Exile001 Freeze's BTAS reinvention has very limited use. The more he keeps showing up the more it approaches Harley Quinn levels of using a sympathetic reason to be a monster.

It wasn't a perfect solution but I'd be for another Freeze revamp.

[phonogram12]

I didn't care for the nu52 revamp. I can see the argument where it can open up more stories for him, but I really don't see the point if I dislike the character so much that I don't bother to read those stories.

Personally, I didn't mind the whole disembodied head-thing. It kind of gave a new tragic twist to the accident that created him (not to mention a neat new visual). Plus, it gave him an added layer of tragedy that while he was eventually able to cure his wife, he couldn't be with her anymore. His new motivation was that he was just so angry at the world for taking away what he worked so hard to save and now he just wanted to burn it all down with an ice gun. I personally find it relatable. And I don't see how it's any less of a motivation than just being greedy, wanting to prove he's smarter than Batman, or just liking to wreak havoc everywhere you go.