Does Anyone Feel The DCAU Is A Bit Overrated?

[Thezmage]

The reason the DCAU was able to do a lot of what they were able to do is because they approached it with finality. When they made Heart of Ice they did it the way they did because they didn't feel the need to keep Mister Freeze around for more stories in the future. The comics or the movies could be like that, too, if they embraced that mindset rather than being so dedicated to stories that never end

[Yohei72]

I disagree with you on the DC Animated movies. I like them myself

Fair enough. There wouldn't be so many of them if they weren't popular. They make a lot of fans happy, and that's good. They just don't do much for me.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The DCAU is the introduction / defining thing for many people (me included). Of course, nostalgia plays a factor, but different things hold up better than others.

It was my introduction to the DCU too and for a long time, I considered it gospel. And while I still have soft spot for it, I can recognize the flaws with it and say that it is absolutely overrated. It's not overrated because of the writing because the quality of the stories and plotlines on their own is fantastic. However, it is a disappointment in how it treated certain characters.

As others have pointed out, it did essentially devolve into the "Batman and friends" show with Bruce essentially being made out as the guy who is the best at literally everything and everyone else just shut up and worship him. They also did that to a lesser extent with Superman. Also, some of the other character choices were, in my opinion, questionable. I was never really into the John Stewart/Hawkgirl romance nor did I think Wonder Woman should be so enamored with Bruce.

But, it was still the show that got me into comics and for all the flaws, there were just as many virtues.

[Agent Z]

The reason the DCAU was able to do a lot of what they were able to do is because they approached it with finality. When they made Heart of Ice they did it the way they did because they didn't feel the need to keep Mister Freeze around for more stories in the future. The comics or the movies could be like that, too, if they embraced that mindset rather than being so dedicated to stories that never end

Except they kept using Freeze long after Heart of Ice, all the way up to Batman Beyond.

The movies are a better example of finality as they rarely use the same villains in the same continuity.

[TheBatman]

What's funny is that they only did more stuff with Bats/Wondy because of fan reaction to a one off moment in the "Brave and the Bold" episode, where Wonder Woman kisses Batman on the cheek because a missile landed on her, and she realized Batman tried to dig under and save her.

But, yeah...IMO, people here sometimes make it seem like Diana's all consuming trait was that she into Bruce when, as you said, it wasn't that prevalent a thing for her or Bruce.

[Agent Z]

What's funny is that they only did more stuff with Bats/Wondy because of fan reaction to a one off moment in the "Brave and the Bold" episode, where Wonder Woman kisses Batman on the cheek because a missile landed on her, and she realized Batman tried to dig under and save her.

But, yeah...IMO, people here sometimes make it seem like Diana's all consuming trait was that she into Bruce when, as you said, it wasn't that prevalent a thing for her or Bruce.

It was pretty much the most development she got throughout the series. It wasn't prevalent, which made it stand out that nothing else was going for her. Bruce had other stuff on the show, plus other storylines from his series.

[Guy_McNichts]

It was pretty much the most development she got throughout the series. It wasn't prevalent, which made it stand out that nothing else was going for her. Bruce had other stuff on the show, plus other storylines from his series.

^^This. Despite not being that prevalent, it's pretty much the main thing anyone remembers about DCAU Wonder Woman. And that says a lot.

They really dropped the ball on Wonder Woman.
By making her origin part of the team's formation, she had no personal life. No real goals or ambitions beyond being part of the League. Even when they finally made her a diplomat, she spent the whole time scowling like a child with an unwanted chore.

She had no internal life. It's telling that, unlike most of the other heroes, she had no reaction or response to the Justice Lords. Superman was mortified. Batman convinced his variant to turn good (because of course Batman in any form is incorruptible). But Diana? Nothing.
Even when Luthor-Brainiac created copies of the Justice Lords for them to fight, not a single word is exchanged between Diana and her doppelganger.

Did she have any thoughts or opinions on the whole Cadmus thing? Did she think they were going too far? Did she misunderstand the issue? Did she think there might be better options?
Nope. Anytime Clark and Bruce argued about it, she just stood off to the side in silence and looked sad.

They took away the Lasso's power until the last season--something that could've been helpful against Dr. Destiny or Eclipso or Gorilla Grodd. They treated Cheeath and Circe like garbage (hilariously, Batman makes both of them swoon). When Ares showed up, he was defeated by DOVE teaching a lesson about peace--not her.

She had moments. That was all. Isolated beats where she got to do or say something cool. There was not an absence of good.
I still think their handling of Diana in regard to Superman fighting Doomsday was infinitely better than the comics or any of the multiple Death of Superman adaptations we've gotten. I like how she completely sandbags Hades when he suggests he's technically her father--just tells him to shut-up and moves on. Hugging J'onn when he shows up in the last episode was a nice moment.

But she was otherwise inconsequential. She had episodes revolve around her, but none of them mattered. Arguably, her biggest achievement through the whole series was ripping the Black Mercy off Batman and throwing it onto Mongul. Otherwise, all she ever did was punch things.

I'm not going to say she got it the worst. I know Hawkman fans are plenty salty about his portrayal. But like I said, the DCAU Wonder Woman was, at best, mediocre--at worst, a pretty lousy interpretation of her character.

EDIT:
By the way, the Batman ship itself is and was awful. It was just Diana gushing about Bruce like a schoolgirl while he ignores her. "This Little Piggy" really was the nadir. Like, she's turned into a pig right on the heels of Bruce telling her they shouldn't be a couple because their enemies will use her against him and she assures him she can take care of herself.

Apparently you can't, Diana. Way to go.

[king81992]

I think the DCAU is still better than most of the comics.

That's because the DCAU had one vision from beginning to end and the writing staff were more or less on the same page.

[king81992]

Here's a hot take: I think the whole trinity was written blandly in JL/JLU. Superman defaults to a cynical version of himself that still often feels like a ping-pong ball being tossed around and Batman is handicapped by the creators wanting to keep him as unchanging as possible, so his characterization becomes the "gruff voiced guy who gives orders and little else", while everybody else at least seemlingly changes a little.

The blandness specially noticeable for WW, however, because she didn't have a cartoon to explore her personality and mythos and because she still got the short end of the stick (even among the rest of the JL) when it came to cool climatic moments and scenes (they should have given her a story and moment like Flash dismantling Braniac-Luthor, or Superman vs Darkseid). I also think she's a bit of a prototype for the "angry WW", we tend to see nowdays, though obviously much less exaggerated. By the end of JLU, the writers had shown us a little bit of all the leaguers minus her and they even seemed to be more interested in having Luthor be a main (villanous) protagonist than to give her something to chew on.

The stories themselves were pretty great, but I always felt the characterizations needed work.

DCAU Superman being cynical made sense considering everything h went through prior to JL/JLU.

[Zagre]

Something like JLA: Golden Perfect would have been, uh, perfect, for adaptation. The Mark Waid/Joe Kelly run of JLA managed to balance the characters a bit better while going for a similar tone.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

I thought they were pretty much following the example of Waid and Ross in their treatment of Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come. Even Waid admitted that she was the character he least understood, and turning her into a sword-wielding warrior willing to kill her enemies was the best he could do. To say nothing of the not-really-built-up (IMO) romantic pairing with Superman. You can be the most powerful and respected heroine in any universe, and male creators will still view you in terms of "whose girlfriend should you eventually become?" first.

[Gaius]

I thought they were pretty much following the example of Waid and Ross in their treatment of Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come. Even Waid admitted that she was the character he least understood, and turning her into a sword-wielding warrior willing to kill her enemies was the best he could do. To say nothing of the not-really-built-up (IMO) romantic pairing with Superman. You can be the most powerful and respected heroine in any universe, and male creators will still view you in terms of "whose girlfriend should you eventually become?" first.

They actually went with Wonder Woman schoolgirl crush on Batman because Wonder Woman having a schoolgirl crush on Superman would have been obvious. That it never occurred to anyone she didn't have to be paired with either of them is an example of how little thought when into DCAU Wonder Woman.

As others have brought up, it's a gripe because it's pretty much the only consistent form of character development she had. She goes from "stuck up feminist who looks down on men" to "stuck up feminist who looks down on men...except Bruce (Timm) Wayne". It's also pretty much the main her VA (Susan Eisenberg) brings up when talking about a DCAU revival.

[TheBatman]

Yeah, I really don't know why people are acting as if Diana had some unrequited crush on Bruce. She knows Bruce has feelings for her. Again, this whole thing was started when Diana noticed that Bruce was especially worried about her safety in "Brave and the Bold". Bruce clearly isn't ignoring her, he just isn't going to act on his feelings for the reasons you described.

Also, keep in mind that JL/JLU may have taken place after Bruce and Barbara had a failed romance, so that may've played a role in his thought process as well.

[Guy_McNichts]

I thought they were pretty much following the example of Waid and Ross in their treatment of Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come. Even Waid admitted that she was the character he least understood, and turning her into a sword-wielding warrior willing to kill her enemies was the best he could do. To say nothing of the not-really-built-up (IMO) romantic pairing with Superman. You can be the most powerful and respected heroine in any universe, and male creators will still view you in terms of "whose girlfriend should you eventually become?" first.

Which demonstrates a misunderstanding of Kingdom Come on their part, because there is an in-story reason why Wonder Woman acts the way she does there. It's acknowledged in the story that she's not acting like herself, and part of her arc is realizing she's lost her way.

Also, the relationship between Clark and Diana in Kingdom Come really isn't supposed to be romantic. It's too old, lonely people settling because they've lost everyone else.

Yeah, I really don't know why people are acting as if Diana had some unrequited crush on Bruce. She knows Bruce has feelings for her. Again, this whole thing was started when Diana noticed that Bruce was especially worried about her safety in "Brave and the Bold". Bruce clearly isn't ignoring her, he just isn't going to act on his feelings for the reasons you described.

Also, keep in mind that JL/JLU may have taken place after Bruce and Barbara had a failed romance, so that may've played a role in his thought process as well.

Thing is...does he? Does he really? Part of the problem with the WonderBat ship is I frankly just don't buy it and never did. Why does Bruce have these feelings deep down for Diana? What is the attraction aside from "she's hot" and "she has a pulse"? Why would Diana be particularly drawn to an emotionally stunted plank of wood who does little beside condescend and patronize her?

Oh, he tried to dig her out of rubble...because he would've left anyone else to die? Oh, he sang a song to save her...because he would've done any less for anyone else on the team?

It reinforces how poorly they wrote Diana to start, because his attraction to her is--as depicted--based on nothing. What attracts him to her? Her bossiness? That she acts like a stuck-up snob to everyone?
But it also ties into their portrayal of Bruce as the unflappable, super stoic, nothing fazes him ultra-badass. Because we've no indication whatsoever why he would care about Diana any more or less than literally every other teammate on the League because he never demonstrates any genuine emotion for her aside from occasional concern and annoyance.

That would require vulnerability and they were too busy showing how much cooler he was than everyone else.
The one exception was the scene with Ace when she dies...and even that was framed as "This is why the League NEEDS Batman. ONLY HE could comfort a dying child."

So, whatever their ship is supposed to be on paper--presumably Diana the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trying to get the emotionally stunted Batman out of his shell--in execution, it just came across like Diana forming a one-sided crush on the super-cool guy who barely tolerates her. Yet another sacrifice at the altar of Batman's awesomeness.

It was a badly written ship and unflattering direction to take Wonder Woman. And that it's the thing fans remember most about her portrayal in the DCAU is just......sad.
And by the way, they only ran with because they didn't know what else to do with her. Yeah, the little kiss got a positive response from fans. They liked the idea because they didn't want to do the typical Wonder Woman/Superman ship. But they ultimately did it because they had zero ideas for Diana otherwise.

"What the hell else are we supposed to do with her?" is not the greatest foundation to built what ultimately became a character-defining relationship on

[Thezmage]

Except they kept using Freeze long after Heart of Ice, all the way up to Batman Beyond.

The movies are a better example of finality as they rarely use the same villains in the same continuity.

Yes, they kept using Mister Freeze even long after they resolved his plot, but each time they approached it with a mindset that they weren’t just going to keep him unchanging so he could be used again. If you listen to their commentary tracks they even point out when they think they made a mistake reusing a character, such as Mister Freeze’s one post-Sub-Zero appearance

Just because they found another reason to use a character later doesn’t change the fact that they approached it with a sense of finality as opposed to a “put the toys back in the box” approach