Was the Ultimate Universe Successful

[Baron of Faltine]

In defense of Ultimatum, many have said here that the line was going overboard with adaptations with little changes, which made things too similar to the standard universe. Well, Ultimatum was meant to fix that, getting rid of the excessive characters, while keeping the truly reimagined ones. Please have a closer look at the casualties: they are either just too similar (Xavier, Cyclops, Beast, Wasp, etc), or one-note characters that were never used too much to begin with (Dr. Strange, Daredevil). And then the survivors: those characters who were really a thing of their own and distinct enough were all kept. Captain America dies but then resurrects in the same arc, so does not count. And yes, Magneto dies, but he had done so many monstruous things over the years that I'm sure everybody met his death with relief.

And don't forget the larger context: Thor, a character with an original take, dies in Ultimatum but then returns immediately in "New Ultimates", also by Loeb: clearly that one was not meant to last. Loed also wrote Ultimate-X, so clearly the death of Wolverine was meant to replace him with Jimmy Hudson. Spider-Man (Peter Parker) was saved by Bendis, but only to give him a proper send-off and prepare the ground for Miles Morales.

And another thing: yes, they killed half the cast of the Ultimate Universe. Just like Infinity War did in the MCU years later. But unlike the MCU, Ultimate Marvel had the balls to make those deaths stick. Everybody dies and stays dead except for a couple of exceptions, while in the MCU everybody dies and comes back to life except for a couple of exceptions.

I understand what you are saying.
Nonetheless
Not many liked it, infact many just hated it deeply. Whatever purpose was hoped to achieve it did the exact opposite. After that the line just....kept on going on fumes, never really reaching the impact or success of the past, with the notable exception of Mles Morales who was deemed the only worth salvaging thing of the ultimate universe.
No other new character created for the UU had any sort of success, liveability or interest. Jimmy Hudson/wolvie 2/Dakenlite as example was so so very bland and pointless that I assume Sharkgirl has more fandom. The two gals with explosive powers appeared in Ultimate Spiderman, the hilarious degeneration of ultimatex-men side of their universe. Ultimate Cap that could have as well died so little did, only interesting thing was ultimate Reed Richards becoming a villain...a good one I have enough admit....but for no fucking reason at all. No one. And ultimate nick fury lived only because Samuel L.jackson has so much coolness that even a comic caricature of him had enough to sustain itself.
At first read the comics just to see them fail and suffer(aka the same reason I read authority in heyday) then got bored and stopped doing that after OG Galactus came and powned the entire UU.
Also...
I found the what happened to Ultimate Nightcrawler was stupid, gratuitous and not a good read. Still better than the very special episode of Ultimate x-men when the introduced and forgot completely the MGH, implying that Colossus cannot move without using it, and Ultimate Jean grey(worst version of her ever, make teen Jean the most sensible person of the universe) chastising him essentially saying "death or paralysis rather than drugs".

[marvelprince]

In defense of Ultimatum, many have said here that the line was going overboard with adaptations with little changes, which made things too similar to the standard universe. Well, Ultimatum was meant to fix that, getting rid of the excessive characters, while keeping the truly reimagined ones. Please have a closer look at the casualties: they are either just too similar (Xavier, Cyclops, Beast, Wasp, etc), or one-note characters that were never used too much to begin with (Dr. Strange, Daredevil). And then the survivors: those characters who were really a thing of their own and distinct enough were all kept. Captain America dies but then resurrects in the same arc, so does not count. And yes, Magneto dies, but he had done so many monstruous things over the years that I'm sure everybody met his death with relief.

And don't forget the larger context: Thor, a character with an original take, dies in Ultimatum but then returns immediately in "New Ultimates", also by Loeb: clearly that one was not meant to last. Loed also wrote Ultimate-X, so clearly the death of Wolverine was meant to replace him with Jimmy Hudson. Spider-Man (Peter Parker) was saved by Bendis, but only to give him a proper send-off and prepare the ground for Miles Morales.

And another thing: yes, they killed half the cast of the Ultimate Universe. Just like Infinity War did in the MCU years later. But unlike the MCU, Ultimate Marvel had the balls to make those deaths stick. Everybody dies and stays dead except for a couple of exceptions, while in the MCU everybody dies and comes back to life except for a couple of exceptions.

Could really care less what their intentions were, Blob eating the Wasps corpse took whatever goodwill I had left for whatever they were trying to do. Could’ve found a way to achieve what they wanted without being so tasteless.

[Omega Alpha]

If I remember correctly, the writer is a Liefeld fan who was shocked when Styfe was revealed to be Cable (New Mutants #100) and wanted to emulate that shock with Cable.

Yes, and the fact a writer that loves 90's X-men/X-Force was given a book created exactly because of how convoluted and messy 90' s X-men were should indicate you Marvel has no idea what they were doing.

Could really care less what their intentions were, Blob eating the Wasps corpse took whatever goodwill I had left for whatever they were trying to do. Could’ve found a way to achieve what they wanted without being so tasteless.

Yes, and they could have achieved a status quo shake up without so many deaths and without the utter destruction of the universe. When Hickman says stuff like "you have to put the toys back in the box", I'm pretty sure he has Ultimatum in mind. A good writer changes things by building (see Hickman himself with Krakoa), a bad one does it by destroying things like Loeb did.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Could really care less what their intentions were, Blob eating the Wasps corpse took whatever goodwill I had left for whatever they were trying to do. Could’ve found a way to achieve what they wanted without being so tasteless.

Big deal. It takes more than that to disgust me. Cannibalism is just another way to kill a character. I have read all the Sin City comics, it was not the first time I saw such a thing in a comic

[Lukmendes]

I understand what you are saying.
I found the what happened to Ultimate Nightcrawler was stupid, gratuitous and not a good read. Still better than the very special episode of Ultimate x-men when the introduced and forgot completely the MGH, implying that Colossus cannot move without using it, and Ultimate Jean grey(worst version of her ever, make teen Jean the most sensible person of the universe) chastising him essentially saying "death or paralysis rather than drugs".

I'm pretty sure Banshee drug wasn't around long enough for Colossus to have used it too, or he couldn't have access to it for a while lol.

It's also hilarious how much Wolverine makes sure to say that he never used drugs in his life, as if that ******* didn't do worse lol.

Big deal. It takes more than that to disgust me. Cannibalism is just another way to kill a character. I have read all the Sin City comics, it was not the first time I saw such a thing in a comic

Cool, but you're not everyone, and fact that Blob earting Janet is the most remembered part of Ultimatum shows that people didn't like or were laughing at how tryhard Ultimatum was being.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Cool, but you're not everyone, and fact that Blob earting Janet is the most remembered part of Ultimatum shows that people didn't like or were laughing at how tryhard Ultimatum was being.

Of course not, but you're not "everyone" either. What I said is my opinion, my perspective, and when Marvelprince says "Could really care less...", he's also giving us his own opinion. It's pointless to try to validate someone's opinion with popularity support. I like Heavy Metal, and that also means that I hardly care about the complaints of those who can't see a mere decapitation without getting scared.

[Alan2099]

On paper, the idea that they could have this big crossover that actually mattered because there is a real body count sounds like an interesting idea. And given how people loved to talk about the Ultimate Universe being able to do things the regular one couldn't I can see how the story would get approved.

The problem is, It doesn't seem like they stopped to think what happens next. Sure you have this awesome (mileage may vary) story but after it's done, most of the character that people cared about where gone. You can't just completely replace them and move on.

[Baron of Faltine]

On paper, the idea that they could have this big crossover that actually mattered because there is a real body count sounds like an interesting idea. And given how people loved to talk about the Ultimate Universe being able to do things the regular one couldn't I can see how the story would get approved.

The problem is, It doesn't seem like they stopped to think what happens next. Sure you have this awesome (mileage may vary) story but after it's done, most of the character that people cared about where gone. You can't just completely replace them and move on.

You highlighted the core issue with Ultimatum other than being too edgy for edge sake.
After that they had no idea what to do, next. Most stories were bland and overall forgettable. Most interesting thing was making an pointless character like ultimate Reed Richards the main villains of his universe, and Miles Morales Spider-man, apart thesethe rest was so utterly....bland...

[Baron of Faltine]

Of course not, but you're not "everyone" either. What I said is my opinion, my perspective, and when Marvelprince says "Could really care less...", he's also giving us his own opinion. It's pointless to try to validate someone's opinion with popularity support. I like Heavy Metal, and that also means that I hardly care about the complaints of those who can't see a mere decapitation without getting scared

Context is king. Till Ultimatum, Blob was never shown to be a cannibalistic brute, apart in lame comics that acted as prelude to it. Then out of sudden, bam, cannibalism. An drawn in away ths ties, was planned to shock the reader, to add flavor to a otherwise average story (remove the gruesome dead and Ultimatum is quite average as story, so it actually make sense adding those to pump the story u, expecially considering that ultimate characters characterization did not offered much to work with). It was not everyone flavor. Given that bad taste some stories had given and you got a recipe for sel destruction. After Ultimatum, started decline of readers. And then it ended, rightfully, like 2099, heroes reborn earth, supreme squadron earth, new earth and sadly ultraverse. A crossover here and there, just to say hey we still here, then nothing.
Honestly, I am not saying you are wrong, but you have to understand that is less matter of ending scared and ore matter of being repulsed by the piss poor taste and execution.as well as the inherent pretentiousness of that "edge" .

[FFJamie94]

I have ultimatium sitting in my comic collection, I’ll get round to reading it one day.
But regardless, I think I heard somewhere that they were planning a hard reboot on the ultimate universe after that, so the deaths make sense when you consider it was meant to be the last story for that Universe.

[Ultimate Captain America]

On paper, the idea that they could have this big crossover that actually mattered because there is a real body count sounds like an interesting idea. And given how people loved to talk about the Ultimate Universe being able to do things the regular one couldn't I can see how the story would get approved.

The problem is, It doesn't seem like they stopped to think what happens next. Sure you have this awesome (mileage may vary) story but after it's done, most of the character that people cared about where gone. You can't just completely replace them and move on.

And that lead us back to an earlier post I made: Ultimatum did not kill the characters people liked, but those they were not interested in, or who were not original enough. For example, the wasp. Was her death gross? That depends: if the only thing yoiu knew were Fox Kids animated series, yes, it may be shocking, but if you are already hardened by productions that are not family friendly, then it is just a death scene like others. Was her death a great loss? Not really. The only thing of note she did was to remind us that Pym is a dirtbag, then be Captain America's girlfriend, and then Pym's again. And defeat Hulk. Not much else, not a big loss.

You highlighted the core issue with Ultimatum other than being too edgy for edge sake.
After that they had no idea what to do, next. Most stories were bland and overall forgettable. Most interesting thing was making an pointless character like ultimate Reed Richards the main villains of his universe, and Miles Morales Spider-man, apart thesethe rest was so utterly....bland...

Again, that depends on how you define "bland" or "forgettable", but I found the post-Ultimatum era equally good. Hickman's Ultimates, the civil war, the X-Men on the run and then in Utopia, those were awesome.

Context is king. Till Ultimatum, Blob was never shown to be a cannibalistic brute, apart in lame comics that acted as prelude to it. Then out of sudden, bam, cannibalism. An drawn in away ths ties, was planned to shock the reader, to add flavor to a otherwise average story (remove the gruesome dead and Ultimatum is quite average as story, so it actually make sense adding those to pump the story u, expecially considering that ultimate characters characterization did not offered much to work with). It was not everyone flavor. Given that bad taste some stories had given and you got a recipe for sel destruction. After Ultimatum, started decline of readers. And then it ended, rightfully, like 2099, heroes reborn earth, supreme squadron earth, new earth and sadly ultraverse. A crossover here and there, just to say hey we still here, then nothing.
Honestly, I am not saying you are wrong, but you have to understand that is less matter of ending scared and ore matter of being repulsed by the piss poor taste and execution.as well as the inherent pretentiousness of that "edge" .

Wrong. This one is from Ultimate X-Men #12, just the second arc of the series.

[Baron of Faltine]

And that lead us back to an earlier post I made: Ultimatum did not kill the characters people liked, but those they were not interested in, or who were not original enough. For example, the wasp. Was her death gross? That depends: if the only thing yoiu knew were Fox Kids animated series, yes, it may be shocking, but if you are already hardened by productions that are not family friendly, then it is just a death scene like others. Was her death a great loss? Not really. The only thing of note she did was to remind us that Pym is a dirtbag, then be Captain America's girlfriend, and then Pym's again. And defeat Hulk. Not much else, not a big loss.



Again, that depends on how you define "bland" or "forgettable", but I found the post-Ultimatum era equally good. Hickman's Ultimates, the civil war, the X-Men on the run and then in Utopia, those were awesome.



Wrong. This one is from Ultimate X-Men #12, just the second arc of the series.

OK...that was weird...because I do ot rendered that line from Blob. I rember him bamboozling Beast pretending to be an hot chicken online. Is odd how certain detail of comic pen miss.
But I still remain of my opinion, even if apparently they foreshadowed Blob being a cannibal *******. Ultimatum was garbage, albeit necessary since the ultimate universe was rocking becoming stale. But after that, they tried to go and made their stories, and few good things were to be found. But overall lost its magic quite fast.
Still you made an interesting point of the character offed. And made me think about all the slaughtered characters in events like Ultimatum. Sure as fan of this or that character I could be angry, but were really that pivotal to stories? Or was just my fandom projecting more value and confusing regular 616 versikn version And the character with the Ultimate ones? And this also made me wonder if you do not have some point of soem Ultimate characters being way too much like their 616 version.

[K7P5V]

Again, that depends on how you define "bland" or "forgettable", but I found the post-Ultimatum era equally good. Hickman's Ultimates, the civil war, the X-Men on the run and then in Utopia, those were awesome.

Thanks. For a moment there, I was thinking I might be the only one that found the B. Wood run on Ultimate X-Men a most enjoyable reading experience.

[Minerboh]

Ultimate Spider-Man is considered to be classic from the most recent history of comic books and Miles Morales is on his way to become a classic figure. Marvel Zombies poped out of the Ultimate line so there's that. It is definitely an imprint that left a strong mark.
There were somemoments though that i found... not so much to my liking...
Hulk as a horny canibal, Captain America as an *******, Tony Stark as an indestructable Smurf and Sue Storm's bitch attitude to Reed forcing him to become The Maker. Thor as a hippie, oh COME ON!
Let's not mention Wanda and Pietro... God!

[FFJamie94]

Ultimate Spider-Man is considered to be classic from the most recent history of comic books and Miles Morales is on his way to become a classic figure. Marvel Zombies poped out of the Ultimate line so there's that. It is definitely an imprint that left a strong mark.
There were somemoments though that i found... not so much to my liking...
Hulk as a horny canibal, Captain America as an *******, Tony Stark as an indestructable Smurf and Sue Storm's bitch attitude to Reed forcing him to become The Maker. Thor as a hippie, oh COME ON!
Let's not mention Wanda and Pietro... God!

Ultimate Spider-Man is probably the comic that most People will remember and will be put up there with the GOATS.
But again, I did enjoy how experimental it became and how it kind of feeds into a lot of modern 616 comics.
Cate's Venom feels almost like a follow up to Hickman's Ultimates (and his fantastic four for that matter) which kind of makes me glad that I have a lot of those issues for context.

I think it started off rather fun by having a more "gritty" 00's take on these characters, but it became more fun when they started to interact with 616.