Ben Reilly and Kaine's first encounter

[BMKomics]

Hello everyone,

I don't know if I'm in the right place for that, but I just have a question that I can't find any answer about anywhere on the web (pun intended of course). I am currently reading through "The Complete Clone Saga Epic - Book 01" and when Kaine erupts into the warehouse in which Ben is trying to stop Tannen, Ben calls him by his name. How come ? I was under the impression that this was their very first encounter, they have never once interacted before, so I'm lost. Did I miss something ? Is the order in which things appear in the book not the right one ? Nothing seems to indicate such a thing online. I don't know.

Thank you if you read me and have an answer !

[Jness]

Hello everyone,

I don't know if I'm in the right place for that, but I just have a question that I can't find any answer about anywhere on the web (pun intended of course). I am currently reading through "The Complete Clone Saga Epic - Book 01" and when Kaine erupts into the warehouse in which Ben is trying to stop Tannen, Ben calls him by his name. How come ? I was under the impression that this was their very first encounter, they have never once interacted before, so I'm lost. Did I miss something ? Is the order in which things appear in the book not the right one ? Nothing seems to indicate such a thing online. I don't know.

Thank you if you read me and have an answer !

The reference was intentional there; it was meant to imply that Ben already knew who Kaine was and that they had a history together. IIRC, it was in Ben Reilly: Lost Years or something like that that the original encounters between Ben and Kaine were documented!

[BMKomics]

The reference was intentional there; it was meant to imply that Ben already knew who Kaine was and that they had a history together. IIRC, it was in Ben Reilly: Lost Years or something like that that the original encounters between Ben and Kaine were documented!

Yeah that's the one I'm reading. It's in the Lost Years #2 and #3. Ben calls Kaine by his name three times in a row, when they have clearly never met. Kaine knows who Ben is because he's been following him since NYC, but he has not once shown himself to Ben prior to this, hence my confusion. I don't understand how he could possibly know him.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think that might have been tackled in J.M. DeMatteis's follow-up to Spider-Man: The Lost Years, called Spider-Man: Redemption, which settled the blood feud between Ben (having become Spider-Man at the time) and Kaine once and for all.

[BMKomics]

I think that might have been tackled in J.M. DeMatteis's follow-up to Spider-Man: The Lost Years, called Spider-Man: Redemption, which settled the blood feud between Ben (having become Spider-Man at the time) and Kaine once and for all.

Okay, thank you very much ! From what I can see the "Redemption" arc doesn't appear in any of the five books of the "complete clone saga epic" (so long for the emphasis on the "complete" then, I guess). But I'll be sure to get it to read it in due time. Would you happen to know when it takes place in terms of chronology with all the rest ? Since it came out only one year after "The Lost Years", I figure I'll just read it when I'm through with Book 1, just before diving into Book 2.

[ZeroBG82]

Okay, thank you very much ! From what I can see the "Redemption" arc doesn't appear in any of the five books of the "complete clone saga epic" (so long for the emphasis on the "complete" then, I guess). But I'll be sure to get it to read it in due time. Would you happen to know when it takes place in terms of chronology with all the rest ? Since it came out only one year after "The Lost Years", I figure I'll just read it when I'm through with Book 1, just before diving into Book 2.

That's because it's collected in the Complete Ben Reilly Epics, which detail Ben's time as Spider-Man. The Clone Saga epics only cover his time as Scarlet Spider. If you want the ENTIRE clone sage, you need all the volumes of Complete Clone Saga and Complete Ben Reilly. It's 11? or maybe 12? volumes in total.

[BMKomics]

That's because it's collected in the Complete Ben Reilly Epics, which detail Ben's time as Spider-Man. The Clone Saga epics only cover his time as Scarlet Spider. If you want the ENTIRE clone sage, you need all the volumes of Complete Clone Saga and Complete Ben Reilly. It's 11? or maybe 12? volumes in total.

Hot damn that's a lotta issues to read ! Well, thank you so much for your answers, I guess I'll read that then. I reckon this collection begins right at the end of book 5 of the clone saga collection ?

[ZeroBG82]

Hot damn that's a lotta issues to read ! Well, thank you so much for your answers, I guess I'll read that then. I reckon this collection begins right at the end of book 5 of the clone saga collection ?

Yes, that is correct. The final volume of Complete Clone Saga epic ends, and the very next issues published appear in Complete Ben Reilly epic Vol 1

[HypnoHustler]

As far as I’m aware Kaine and Ben’s very first interaction/fight has not been shown on panel. In ‘Lost Years’ Ben was already aware of Kaine.

One overlooked confrontation between Ben and Kaine is documented in ASM #608 to 610, the arc ‘Who Was Ben Reilly?’ and involved a villain called Raptor that Ben met during his time on the road. Kaine finds him and confronts him inside Raptor’s house. It’s an underrated (and somewhat forgotten) arc, but worth seeking out. (I also like it because it was the first time in the current books that Ben and Kaine were really embraced again… for a long time Marvel pretended they never existed)

‘Lost Years’, that ‘Who Was Ben Reilly?’ arc, and one or two small flashbacks from ‘Redemption’ are AFAIK the only times we see Ben and Kaine meet or fight during Ben’s five years on the road. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

[BMKomics]

As far as I’m aware Kaine and Ben’s very first interaction/fight has not been shown on panel. In ‘Lost Years’ Ben was already aware of Kaine.

One overlooked confrontation between Ben and Kaine is documented in ASM #608 to 610, the arc ‘Who Was Ben Reilly?’ and involved a villain called Raptor that Ben met during his time on the road. Kaine finds him and confronts him inside Raptor’s house. It’s an underrated (and somewhat forgotten) arc, but worth seeking out. (I also like it because it was the first time in the current books that Ben and Kaine were really embraced again… for a long time Marvel pretended they never existed)

‘Lost Years’, that ‘Who Was Ben Reilly?’ arc, and one or two small flashbacks from ‘Redemption’ are AFAIK the only times we see Ben and Kaine meet or fight during Ben’s five years on the road. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Thanks so much for that answer, you know, I don't know why it bothered me that much to not know why he seemed to know him, I think I was mainly just afraid of having missed some issues, but you guys have been a great help !

[Matt Rat]

It’s an underrated (and somewhat forgotten) arc, but worth seeking out. (I also like it because it was the first time in the current books that Ben and Kaine were really embraced again… for a long time Marvel pretended they never existed).

At the time, Marvel were planning to bring Ben back, that's also why there was that Ben/X-Men crossover one-shot released around the same period, and why they published the Clone Saga remake a year later. It just didn't work out at that particular moment in time.

I remember the "Who Was Ben Reilly" arc largely for the big gaffe where they used a Romita Jr illustration of Ben and Janine and tried to pass it off as Peter and MJ in a flashback, because they could not find any pics of MJ to use from the later parts of the Clone Saga where she wasn't pregnant

[HypnoHustler]

At the time, Marvel were planning to bring Ben back, that's also why there was that Ben/X-Men crossover one-shot released around the same period, and why they published the Clone Saga remake a year later. It just didn't work out at that particular moment in time.

I remember the "Who Was Ben Reilly" arc largely for the big gaffe where they used a Romita Jr illustration of Ben and Janine and tried to pass it off as Peter and MJ in a flashback, because they could not find any pics of MJ to use from the later parts of the Clone Saga where she wasn't pregnant

I don't know what Ben coming back in 2011 would've looked like... whether he would've been Jackal in 'Spider Island' as Slott later claimed, or just been Scarlet Spider in that Yost series instead of Kaine, etc. It seems to have worked out and we got an interesting series with Kaine as SS, but I do wonder.

Yes, I remember that gaffe. That said, I thought both the Spidey/X-Men mini, and the 'Who was Ben Reilly?' arc to be pretty fun reads overall and great relief after a decade long moratorium on using Ben. Around that time, we also got back-ups in the 'Web of...' anthology series, such as a neat story by JM DeMatteis where Ben was an ESL teacher in Italy who confronts the local Mafia during his 5 year exile which I liked a lot (and also one by another writer where he was calling himself Henry Jones and working as a janitor, which I was less fond of).

[Matt Rat]

whether he would've been Jackal in 'Spider Island' as Slott later claimedf).

While I wouldn't have liked Ben as The Jackal at any point in any event, I think I would have been preferred that to the Jackal actually coming back as I tend to believe that he died for good in Maximum Clonage, Also hate that they retconned his mutated appearance to be another costume.

[Huntsman Spider]

While I wouldn't have liked Ben as The Jackal at any point in any event, I think I would have been preferred that to the Jackal actually coming back as I tend to believe that he died for good in Maximum Clonage, Also hate that they retconned his mutated appearance to be another costume.

Yeah, that was stupid, I thought.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Also hate that they retconned his mutated appearance to be another costume.

That seemed to be more of a throwaway "Ben can pretend to be any Jackal if he wants" moment than that. Warren literally comes out of a cocoon saying he reengineered his body and in what is likely an oversight, he says he too is a clone when the Carrion virus doesn't kill him in Springville (in Spidercide's debut). With all of these, there is just no way "it was just a costume" can ever fit. They make it a huge point he messed with his body's structure, down to taking down Peter and Ben at the same time.

As for the first time Ben and Kaine ever met, I think if you mention that to DeMatteis he'll either get back to you with a manuscript in 30 minutes or pitch Marvel to let him write that as an oneshot sometime soon.