Mary Jane Watson = Plot Device to Peters Misery

[exile001]

Yeah, though at least as of more recent Iron Man issues, he's considerably more aware of his personal flaws and how they've made maintaining his relationships --- whether platonic, familial, or romantic --- a lot more difficult than they had to be, which is something a lot of people can honestly relate to, even if they don't take it to the same potentially apocalyptic extremes as you tend to see in a superhero comic.

This latest Iron Man run is something really special. I'm really enjoying the character dissection.

[Huntsman Spider]

This latest Iron Man run is something really special. I'm really enjoying the character dissection.

Same here.

[WebLurker]

Even though it lasted for so long, there were plenty of attempts at ending the marriage, like killing off MJ (Which got retconned), and before that, Clone Saga had plans to make her divorce Peter, and the whole nonsense of "Ben was the original".

I guess the other times it changed the series way too much to stick.

Those idiots take their dislike for Slott too far, while I don't really think he's that competent of a writer, he gets really over hated just for existing, it's pathetic really.

I remember the madness when he chimed in on a "could Spidey and MJ get married again?" speculation thread, insisting that it could not happen ever, even if the people in charge wanted to do it. I always found it a weird claim that didn't make sense to me (and he didn't offer any explanation why), but the angry turn that thread took, with some users raking him over the coals for that was surreal. I mean, at the end of the day, it was Slott just offering his opinion; he hardly had the authority to make such decisions, so it wasn't like his posts were binding (not to mention I don't think anyone seriously believed that an OMD retcon was going to happen anytime soon anyways).

Haven't seen it much as of late (last Slott hate post I saw online was some screed trying to make him the scapegoat in "the devil made me do it" excuse for their toxicity -- although that was from an internet user who had a frankly disturbing obsessive hate for him even beyond the usual "he's ruining Spider-Man" stuff I saw around here). Not sure if that's just because most of the hate was due to how he did Spider-Man or something else.

I remember hearing that Bendis had a plan in Siege to undo OMD, which Quesada dismissed, though I'm not sure if it's actually true.

Could be. I don't think Benis has ever gone on record where he stands on the subject, although I think marriage fans seem to see him positively, due to how pro-Peter/MJ his Ultimate Spider-Man series was.

Either way, Quesada is generally the big name when it comes to having OMD happen to begin with, and from what I hear, he's also the reason Janet got killed for a while, Jean also got killed a few years before Civil War just so Cyke could end up with Emma, basically Marvel was being really butthurt about marriages for a while, and it's a surprise F4 escaped that nonsense, but thinking of it, I wonder if there were plans for Civil War to cause more permanent damage in Reed's and Sue's relationship.

Seeing how Quesada has essentially taken credit as being the one who decided it would happen and dictated the hows, I get why he's the most blamed by those who dislike it.

Actually thought Cyclops and Emma worked better together (although the few X-Men comics I collected were from that era, so that may be my bias).

Considering DC's history on the subject, seems like comic publishers in general really dislike character marriages, esp. in the never-ending superhero cycle. I wonder if it has to do with the aversion to change or imposing limits (why marry the characters when that would prevent them from breaking up, seeing other people, and getting back together as we please?).

So far as why the F4 escaped the purge, I wonder if it being written into the main series by Stan Lee gave it a "sacredness" that none of the others had (while the Spidey/MJ wedding was a Lee invention, it started in the newspaper strip and the franchise had already diverted from Lee's vision when his chosen love interest, Gwen Stacy, was killed off). The F4 were also created to be a family from day one, which might be a consideration, not to mention that neither Sue or Reed have any other serious love interests (suppose you could argue Namor for Sue, but I don't think he ever broke away from his role as the hot rival the way MJ did).

I do think it's ironic that Reed and Sue are the only couple that will never get broken up, given that, from what I've seen, it's a pretty toxic marriage, even giving a pass to the '60s sexism baked into it. Heck, having them as divorced couple sharing custody of the kids, working together professionally, maybe seeing other people, would still be on brand for the "family" angle (that's the situation for a lot of people).

[Lukmendes]

I guess the other times it changed the series way too much to stick.

And deciding to not go for the divorce route makes sense when the reason OMD happened to begin with was because Marvel didn't want Spider-Man to be a hero who did a divorce.

I remember the madness when he chimed in on a "could Spidey and MJ get married again?" speculation thread, insisting that it could not happen ever, even if the people in charge wanted to do it. I always found it a weird claim that didn't make sense to me (and he didn't offer any explanation why), but the angry turn that thread took, with some users raking him over the coals for that was surreal. I mean, at the end of the day, it was Slott just offering his opinion; he hardly had the authority to make such decisions, so it wasn't like his posts were binding (not to mention I don't think anyone seriously believed that an OMD retcon was going to happen anytime soon anyways).

It sounds like the worst thing he did in that thread was not explaining why, but, it's not like he has to, specially if it ends up blaming his bosses, so yeah, it's definitely not a bad thing.

Slott from what I've seen when he talked around here a few times was pretty patient with the people who dislike him.

Haven't seen it much as of late (last Slott hate post I saw online was some screed trying to make him the scapegoat in "the devil made me do it" excuse for their toxicity -- although that was from an internet user who had a frankly disturbing obsessive hate for him even beyond the usual "he's ruining Spider-Man" stuff I saw around here). Not sure if that's just because most of the hate was due to how he did Spider-Man or something else.

It's not a surprised, Spider-Man is a huge name and he stayed in it for a long time, while he did write Iron Man and is writing Fantastic Four, those names are far smaller so he'll get less hate, that and I'm not sure if the stuff he's pulling on F4 is comparable with his worst stories in ASM.

Actually thought Cyclops and Emma worked better together (although the few X-Men comics I collected were from that era, so that may be my bias).

From what I've seen, Cyke and Emma have alright chemistry, but the problem is that the way the relationship started is just terrible, with Emma having sex with Scott during therapy (Which's, highly questionable to put it very lightly), characters not giving her much **** for doing that just because she has a crush on Cyke, and Jean suddenly dying near the end of Morrison's run (She had just resurrected after being thrown into the sun, but Magneto does a "planetary stroke" on her and she dies, which, also looks stupid since it looks like he just touched her arm, and she died), and then, a bad future happens because Cyke didn't stay with the X-Men, and in this bad future, Jean as the White Phoenix of the Crown decides to make things right, by altering the past, making Scott stay with the X-Men and make out with Emma, near Jean's grave.

So yeah, maybe CykexEmma is a more interesting relationship than CykexJean, but my point is, that Jean got killed in such a ridiculous way just so Cyke could end up with someone else, and probably without having to divorce.

Considering DC's history on the subject, seems like comic publishers in general really dislike character marriages, esp. in the never-ending superhero cycle. I wonder if it has to do with the aversion to change or imposing limits (why marry the characters when that would prevent them from breaking up, seeing other people, and getting back together as we please?).

It's probably because of limits, because now that character A is married with character B, now character B also has to show up once in a while, maybe even develop the relationship, and it's also very possible that a writer in particular prefers one ship over another (I've heard that even after Supes married Lois, at least once one writer tried to push a SupesxLana angle, and made Lois into a bitch).

That and there's also a worry about aging up characters, and Spidey gets the worst of this by comparison, because while Supes and Batman are never gonna go past 40, they're still allowed to be older than Spidey, who can't even go past 30, and hell, DiDio's infamous hatred for Nightwing is partially because he ages up Batman.

So far as why the F4 escaped the purge, I wonder if it being written into the main series by Stan Lee gave it a "sacredness" that none of the others had (while the Spidey/MJ wedding was a Lee invention, it started in the newspaper strip and the franchise had already diverted from Lee's vision when his chosen love interest, Gwen Stacy, was killed off). The F4 were also created to be a family from day one, which might be a consideration, not to mention that neither Sue or Reed have any other serious love interests (suppose you could argue Namor for Sue, but I don't think he ever broke away from his role as the hot rival the way MJ did).

Good points.

I do think it's ironic that Reed and Sue are the only couple that will never get broken up, given that, from what I've seen, it's a pretty toxic marriage, even giving a pass to the '60s sexism baked into it. Heck, having them as divorced couple sharing custody of the kids, working together professionally, maybe seeing other people, would still be on brand for the "family" angle (that's the situation for a lot of people).

What I've seen has plenty of ups and downs, I'm not much of an F4 reader but I get the feeling Reed gets overhated as a lousy husband.

But who knows, haven't checked out enough, random issues have him being an ass at times, but also having a kinda cute relationship with Sue.

[Matt Rat]

I remember the madness when he chimed in on a "could Spidey and MJ get married again?" speculation thread, insisting that it could not happen ever, even if the people in charge wanted to do it

A case of upper management wanting to keep Spidey 'on brand' in much the same way no animated series can ever be about Peter in college or university?

[NC_Yankee]

A case of upper management wanting to keep Spidey 'on brand' in much the same way no animated series can ever be about Peter in college or university?

Which is why I do not watch animated Spider-Man series ( even when I was 18). Especially awful was Peter and Miles in school together. Talk about something NOT in canon.

[Lee]

Almost every American children's cartoon stars kid characters. High school age is the upper limit, more or less. That's been the standard for decades now. So of course they're going to use the high school version of Spider-Man.

Which is why I do not watch animated Spider-Man series ( even when I was 18).

18 year olds have never been the target audience for any Spider-Man animated series. They're for 6-12 year olds.

[Matt Rat]

18 year olds have never been the target audience for any Spider-Man animated series. They're for 6-12 year olds.

Pretty sure the MTV Spider-Man was aimed at a mid teen demographic.

[NC_Yankee]

Almost every American children's cartoon stars kid characters. High school age is the upper limit, more or less. That's been the standard for decades now. So of course they're going to use the high school version of Spider-Man.



18 year olds have never been the target audience for any Spider-Man animated series. They're for 6-12 year olds.

What about What IF which had a good version of Spider-Man? Something that is so much better then the kiddy stuff.

[Lee]

"What If...?" also featured a high school age Spider-Man. And it wasn't a Spider-Man show. The ones you're mad about weren't aimed at you.

[Mercwmouth12]

It seems this topic has veered from the intended purpose. No complaints but can always rename it if we are changing the discussion lol

[Matt Rat]

It seems this topic has veered from the intended purpose. No complaints but can always rename it if we are changing the discussion lol

It got off to a weird start anyway seeing as it was an anti-MJ relationship thread from an alleged Peter/MJ fan, rofl

[Mercwmouth12]

It got off to a weird start anyway seeing as it was an anti-MJ relationship thread from an alleged Peter/MJ fan, rofl

I say this as as new thread is needed for current conversation and to the current thread which itself is defunct

BUMP

[PCN24454]

It’s dumb to say that MJ is just a plot device to make Peter suffer when that describes most characters in the franchise.

[NC_Yankee]

It’s dumb to say that MJ is just a plot device to make Peter suffer when that describes most characters in the franchise.

You are 100% correct. In fact If you go back to Amazing Fantasy 15 ( long before MJ showed up) Peter had to suffer. What makes things different with modern day Peter stories is he loses far more then he wins, and unless you dislike Peter or are a self loathing masochist, who enjoys that? ( not me). It seems like Peter has become the Detroit Lions and Baltimore Orioles while Ben has become the even more hopeless Vanderbilt football team against Alabama, Georgia, Florida, LSU and Tennessee. I wish the Marvel Office would find a better balance between winning and losing, which I do not think is much to ask for.