Authoritarian Counties and Heroes - Chinese Justice League.

[ShaunN]

You can't compare the PRC to the US with regard to human rights abuses and be serious.

Actually, you can make the comparison. In the contemporary period, the US has implemented a torture regime worldwide, regularly executes innocent people (as the Innocence Project established), has deeply rooted systemic discrimination, has many states taking away women's rights and targeting trans and gay people -the list goes on and on. China does some of these things too, but the most extreme example of HR abuse in China -its campaign against the Uyghurs - does not involve the deaths of many people, though its campaign of cultural indoctrination still constitutes a crime against humanity. When you take into account other countries that commit major human rights abuses with US support, the list goes through the roof. What Israel does the Palestinians is easily comparable to what China does to the Uyghurs (with a lot more Palestinians actually being killed) and would not be possible without US support.

When you go into history, the situation gets even more complicated. The US is literally built on genocide and slavery. China is not, though the Chinese civil war in the 1800s killed 20 million people, the Chinese famine of the 1950s (caused by bureaucratic incompetence) killed about 25 million, and the Cultural Revolution -the one example of real government malevolence =killed about 500,000 people, though the numbers may be far higher). So, yes, the two countries are easily comparable, though in many ways the US is worse (historically, at least).

The OP raises some really interesting questions. I suspect you could get some really good stories as the members of the Chinese JL wrestle with these issues. But, as others have pointed out, it would be good to see American superheroes do the same. Especially given the reality that the US is not really a democracy. It is a plutocratic state and the voter suppression laws being brought in in many states will soon make any democratic credentials that the US has risible.

A final point to consider is that Americans need to learn to understand that their (mythical) experience is not a good model for the rest of the world. Whatever else you can say about the Chinese government, it is responsible for lifting about 800 million people out of poverty in an incredibly short period of time. When surveys are done of trust in government, about 85% of Chinese trust their govt, based on its real accomplishments and based on the fact that many of them remember when their prospects in life were much less than they are now. By comparison, about 30% of Americans trust their govt - based, again, on the idea that the govt is either not doing anything for them or is so corrupt that it is controlled by wealthy interests. The latter point is largely true, so you can't blame people for their perceptions and feelings that the system is rigged. By comparison, a lot of Chinese can legitimately feel that their govt's number one priority is making life better for them and they would be right.

[Noodle]

You can't compare the PRC to the US with regard to human rights abuses and be serious.

That's the thing about the lesser of two evils: both are still evil.

[KurtW95]

What Israel does the Palestinians is easily comparable to what China does to the Uyghurs (with a lot more Palestinians actually being killed) and would not be possible without US support.

This statement alone is so devoid of truth. I'm utterly speechless.

[Lightning Rider]

This statement alone is so devoid of truth. I'm utterly speechless.

The systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is extremely well-documented.

[KurtW95]

The systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is extremely well-documented.

I don't think you are very well-researched on this topic. If I'm wrong, I'd like you to find me where a Palestinian people were referred to and meant only Arabs prior to the 1960s and Yasser Arafat's propagandizing. And with regard to your statement, 20% of Israel is Arab and there are Arabs in the governing coalition in the Knesset. As opposed to the Palestinian controlled areas where not one Jew serves in the PA or Hamas. Gaza is Judenrein. Would you rather walk into Gaza in Jewish religious clothing or walk into Tel Aviv is Muslim religious clothing. There is only one answer that wouldn't get someone killed. And if you'd like to learn more about the conflict, I'd be more than up to discussing it in private messages.

[Lightning Rider]

I don't think you are very well-researched on this topic. If I'm wrong, I'd like you to find me where a Palestinian people were referred to and meant only Arabs prior to the 1960s and Yasser Arafat's propagandizing. And with regard to your statement, 20% of Israel is Arab and there are Arabs in the governing coalition in the Knesset. As opposed to the Palestinian controlled areas where not one Jew serves in the PA or Hamas. Gaza is Judenrein. Would you rather walk into Gaza in Jewish religious clothing or walk into Tel Aviv is Muslim religious clothing. There is only one answer that wouldn't get someone killed. And if you'd like to learn more about the conflict, I'd be more than up to discussing it in private messages.

Incorrect, I'm well-versed in this topic. I've reviewed the literature of Israel's New Historians, work with Palestinian activists against occupation, have heard countless debates showcasing the range of Zionist arguments from the days of Ben Gurion to today's Likud party, in addition to researching the geopolitical origins of the Zionist project in the course of acquiring a political science degree.

I'm well-versed enough to know that your arguments, which are based in moral appeals to tolerance that completely ignore the power dynamic within occupied Palestine or the violent origins of the creation of the Israeli state, reveal that you have wilfully covered your ears to the horrors of settler colonialism plaguing a population denied their most basic human rights.

If I had time to waste, I could link you to the numerous quotes by Israeli politicians advocating the parmanent removal of Arab Palestinians, the articulations from Israel's founders to deny Arab statehood in Palestine, the numerous legal constructs which deny Palestinians basic political rights, countless instances of expulsion and forced relocation, etc. Though it seems like something you could probably investigate yourself. You can PM me if you'd like, but I've learned that convincing ardent Zionists is usually not worth the effort.

[KurtW95]

You do know that the term Zionist merely means that you think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. If you think that is bad, then that says more about you than it does about me. Why can there be over twenty Muslim states and Christian states too, but one Jewish state the size of New Jersey, where they are the indigenous people of the land, and everybody loses their minds. You didn't answer my question either. Show me any reference to the term Palestinian being applied to only Arabs as a specific people prior to the 1960s. You can't and you know it. And you also didn't respond to my assertion about Arab Israelis, which completely debunks your narrative. And what is the s0-called occupation to you? Because Palestinian nationalists referred to it pre-67, meaning that they are not talking about Judea and Samaria. They are talking about all of Israel. They don't want Israel to exist. That is their final solution. A Judenrein land. How about you? How would the land look to you in a perfect world? And if it is the nonexistance of the one Jewish state in the world, well... That ain't great.

[Crazy Diamond]

You do know that the term Zionist merely means that you think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. If you think that is bad, then that says more about you than it does about me. Why can there be over twenty Muslim states and Christian states too, but one Jewish state the size of New Jersey, where they are the indigenous people of the land, and everybody loses their minds. You didn't answer my question either. Show me any reference to the term Palestinian being applied to only Arabs as a specific people prior to the 1960s. You can't and you know it. And you also didn't respond to my assertion about Arab Israelis, which completely debunks your narrative. And what is the s0-called occupation to you? Because Palestinian nationalists referred to it pre-67, meaning that they are not talking about Judea and Samaria. They are talking about all of Israel. They don't want Israel to exist. That is their final solution. A Judenrein land. How about you? How would the land look to you in a perfect world? And if it is the nonexistance of the one Jewish state in the world, well... That ain't great.

Ethnic nationalism is a vice wherever it rears its head.
The arguments you're using were the same ones used to defend apartheid in South Africa.

The fascinating part of the focus on China and Russia is how it allows apologists for the United States and Israel to defend the behavior of their governments by supporting the same things when the flag changes. These liberals love to talk about authoritarianism (ignoring that no state can operate without the force of violence and the monopoly to use said violence) and yet will claim that it's okay when homes get bulldozed or police kidnap people off the streets at random. And it's not limited to anyone country. All governments in all countries no matter the rhetoric of the rulers in them do this. The ruling classes in these countries may have conflicting interests but when it comes time to protect their control over said societies they'll unite quite quickly.

[Lightning Rider]

You do know that the term Zionist merely means that you think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. If you think that is bad, then that says more about you than it does about me. Why can there be over twenty Muslim states and Christian states too, but one Jewish state the size of New Jersey, where they are the indigenous people of the land, and everybody loses their minds. You didn't answer my question either. Show me any reference to the term Palestinian being applied to only Arabs as a specific people prior to the 1960s. You can't and you know it. And you also didn't respond to my assertion about Arab Israelis, which completely debunks your narrative. And what is the s0-called occupation to you? Because Palestinian nationalists referred to it pre-67, meaning that they are not talking about Judea and Samaria. They are talking about all of Israel. They don't want Israel to exist. That is their final solution. A Judenrein land. How about you? How would the land look to you in a perfect world? And if it is the nonexistance of the one Jewish state in the world, well... That ain't great.

You sure do like building strawmen.

[KurtW95]

You sure do like building strawmen.

You sure like to avoid answering questions. Again, would you rather walk into Tel Aviv, dressed in religious Muslim clothing? Or into Gaza, dressed in religious Jewish clothing?

[Lightning Rider]

You sure like to avoid answering questions. Again, would you rather walk into Tel Aviv, dressed in religious Muslim clothing? Or into Gaza, dressed in religious Jewish clothing?

I don't answer bad-faith questions designed obfuscate the issue at hand and vindicate apartheid states.

[JackDaw]

Ethnic nationalism is a vice wherever it rears its head.
The arguments you're using were the same ones used to defend apartheid in South Africa.

The fascinating part of the focus on China and Russia is how it allows apologists for the United States and Israel to defend the behavior of their governments by supporting the same things when the flag changes. These liberals love to talk about authoritarianism (ignoring that no state can operate without the force of violence and the monopoly to use said violence) and yet will claim that it's okay when homes get bulldozed or police kidnap people off the streets at random. And it's not limited to anyone country. All governments in all countries no matter the rhetoric of the rulers in them do this. The ruling classes in these countries may have conflicting interests but when it comes time to protect their control over said societies they'll unite quite quickly.

I believe that states can (substantially) exist without violence….but, of course, any state does need at some point to use force to enforce its laws.

(Violence for me involves the use of excessive force, say beating up peaceful protesters, using terror to enforce the will of the state.)

[manwhohaseverything]

Ethnic nationalism is a vice wherever it rears its head.

And religio-ethnic nationalism is?palestine wants a muslim nation..don't they?They aren't going for a secular democratic republic or even a non-religious communist republic entity like china..
As far as i know,United states is one of the most benign an empire the history has produced so far.We will see how china figures..It is after all under communists just becoming one(an empire).

[KurtW95]

I don't answer bad-faith questions designed obfuscate the issue at hand and vindicate apartheid states.

How is it bad faith if it isn't true. I would suggest proving me wrong, but I don't wish any harm to come to you. You know I speak the truth and are running from my questions while using the libelous apartheid label. There is a right and there is a wrong and it's very clear. Israel is the only state in the world that is subject to such gross double standards. It's the only state that's supposed to respect and appease parties that want it gone. If any other country were attacked from a bordering country that sought to murder a world minority packed into said one state, and the attacked state had a more effective military, the attacking force and their government would be no more. The one state where the native people of a land are labelled a force of colonialism. I asked you simple questions that you refused to answer and continue to refuse to answer. The truth is (and I am not accusing you of antisemitism) is that antisemitism is very prevalent in the world today. Only replacing the word Jew with Zionists and Israel. It's sickening. And said narrative has sadly fooled some good-hearted people into standing with their cause.

[Lightning Rider]

How is it bad faith if it isn't true. I would suggest proving me wrong, but I don't wish any harm to come to you. You know I speak the truth and are running from my questions while using the libelous apartheid label.

It's bad faith because it distracts from the question of whether Palestinians are being systematically uprooted, dislocated, disenfranchised by a religious ethno-state.

This happens. This is and has been the reality for Palestinians for decades. All your deflections about double-standards don't erase this fact.


There's also a cruel irony in that you describe all Jews in Israel as "indigenous" to the land, while foreign Jews are afforded more rights and protection in Israel and the occupied territories than Palestinians who have lived there for untold generations. But seeing how personally invested you are in the Israeli project, I'm not surprised.

Apologies to the mods if the discussion has strayed.