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  1. #76
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    My favorite Barbatos is definitely the Hawkman one (which I believe is the same as Snyder's, but given my antipathy to Snyder's writing, I only enjoy him in Hawkman).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #77
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    My favorite Barbatos is definitely the Hawkman one
    Peter Milligan's more abstract noncorporeal one is my favorite. Where "[Thomas] Jefferson and his followers really had summoned a demon and trapped it in Gotham. It was slowly revealed that Barbatos's influence in Gotham had, in effect, crafted it into the city it is today. It even implied that its powers had orchestrated the Wayne family tragedy that set Bruce down his path to becoming the Bat, almost as a sort of "avatar" of Barbatos himself."
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-26-2022 at 01:00 PM.
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    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  3. #78
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    [accidental double post]
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-26-2022 at 12:59 PM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  4. #79
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    That, to me, makes it too purposeful. I much prefer the Waynes to be the victims of an undirected mugging, to emphasize the randomness of pain in Batman's life, and increase his need for order. If you make it too purposeful, I think, you make it so that Batman can win if he defeats Barbatos or whatever conspiracy killed his parents (this was a major element I disliked in the new Batman film, too).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #80
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That, to me, makes it too purposeful. I much prefer the Waynes to be the victims of an undirected mugging, to emphasize the randomness of pain in Batman's life, and increase his need for order. If you make it too purposeful, I think, you make it so that Batman can win if he defeats Barbatos or whatever conspiracy killed his parents (this was a major element I disliked in the new Batman film, too).
    Just because I love Milligan's version best, I should point out that I don't necessarily accept all the particulars (like Barbatos' curse killing the Waynes) as my headcanon or anything. I'm a big fan of gothic romanticism and crime noir and villains and ideas in those molds, which often involve fatalistic and deterministic things and old curses and cursed lineages and whatnot.

    A big or even the biggest reason I'm a Batman fan is that he very much inhabits some of my favorite genres and their trappings.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-26-2022 at 01:24 PM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    To me it is an occult element that is neither true nor false. Some characters may "believe" it and their actions might be informed by that belief, but thats about it. Yes, it is a bit of a head-canon.

  7. #82
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    If you . . . make it so that Batman can win if he defeats Barbatos or whatever conspiracy killed his parents (this was a major element I disliked in the new Batman film, too).
    I agree so much that Scott Snyder and I got into a very heated acrimonious email argument about all this in early 2011/late 2010.

    The subject of the debate was Scott flirting with returning to (like Zero Hour) an unknown & possibly still alive unjailed killer of the Waynes, which at the time, and still today, I fear risks suggesting, giving the impression that Batman is motivated merely by vengeance (since any criminal he tackles night in or night out could then be his parents' killer) and that if he solved that particular crime, then his crimefighting would end. I don't think that avenue should be left open for writers from an editorial perspective (case in point from the time...Jeph Loeb in 2004 flirted with all this in his first Batman/Superman arc with (IIRC) Metallo claiming to be the Wayne killer and Bruce for a moment thinking he was).
    (I always feel it's best to just leave Chill/the mugger be and he's dead and that case is totally closed and that's that...ergo, Batman's mission clearly has nothing to do with that case anymore as far as it being open or closed)
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-26-2022 at 01:54 PM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  8. #83
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    Dull first issue. The back up story was far more immediately engaging TBH. Also not sure why in the lead strip the way Talia was drawn made her look like Talia had been down the gym body building.

  9. #84
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    I agree so much that Scott Snyder and I got into a very heated acrimonious email argument about all this in early 2011/late 2010.

    The subject of the debate was Scott flirting with returning to (like Zero Hour) an unknown & possibly still alive unjailed killer of the Waynes, which at the time, and still today, I fear risks suggesting, giving the impression that Batman is motivated merely by vengeance (since any criminal he tackles night in or night out could then be his parents' killer) and that if he solved that particular crime, then his crimefighting would end. I don't think that avenue should be left open for writers from an editorial perspective (case in point from the time...Jeph Loeb in 2004 flirted with all this in his first Batman/Superman arc with (IIRC) Metallo claiming to be the Wayne killer and Bruce for a moment thinking he was).
    (I always feel it's best to just leave Chill/the mugger be and he's dead and that case is totally closed and that's that...ergo, Batman's mission clearly has nothing to do with that case anymore as far as it being open or closed)
    Fascinating. I remember the very strange time period when Jeph Loeb and many other writers (Office Down was where I first remember reading it) were pushing the "the Waynes weren't killed by Joe Chill" stuff. I think an over-focus on Batman's origin obscures the fact that his mission is what people like about him, not his origin.

    Amusing that Snyder and you got so heated about it - do you get a sense that he might have listened to you, and changed course? Or did he actually put it in his run?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  10. #85
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    I don't think "demonic spiritual influence" is a tangible excuse for the Wayne murders and I think even in a world of mystical weird **** Bruce is an evidence-based detective and at the end of the day he's a "free will" guy and when Joe Chill done his parents in, that's real to him, and the rest is this weird cosmology his Batman career got involved in. So Bruce brushing up against a Barbatos that has a contigual presence making Gotham into a place where things like the Wayne Murders happen is fine by me. You can't arrest or even "defeat" a demon. Even if you get to the point in your superhero career where you can punch a tangible version of said Demon in the face, it's still basically just a living metaphor. (The Snyder issue, to point, is that his whole historical grounded conspiracy theory is rooted in Batman's personal demons and nightmares once the Court of Owls are set about bringing a tangible nightmare Barbatos into power. But once you factor for all the references back to Morrison's New Gods Ancestor Box it actually works itself out - Darkseid weaponized Batman's history and it continues to attack him and time has no meaning in this.)

    Beyond that, Joe Chill was created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane in Batman # 47 and that's where that ends for me. They solved that question in 1948. NINE-TEEN FORTY-EIGHT. Oh there can be all kinds of shenanigans in the Wayne Murders ... but the trigger man himself and probably his motivation ... has been a thing for 74 YEARS. Three quarters of a damn CENTURY. JOE CHILL. (for context, that original story is good, but Dini's "Chill of the Night" Batman: Brave & Bold episode is the definitive edition for me.)

    Anyway, this issue succeeded highly in mood and tone and ambiance. It was a little thin but 20 page opening chapter, these days, you know. It's not that it felt totally decompressed, just felt like an intro or opening segment. The ... villains? ... seem interesting and stylish and weird. The operatic elements are there. And the Barbatos Nightmare was lovely.
    Last edited by K. Jones; 07-27-2022 at 12:47 AM.
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  11. #86
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    do you get a sense that [Scott Snyder] might have listened to you, and changed course? Or did he actually put it in his run?
    He definitely listened to me some, and later I first knew how much he listened when he ended up using the known killer (Joe Chill) and didn't suggest an open case in either Batman's mind or the police's. I can't remember exactly, but I think Scott landed on sorta maybe suggesting that the Court of Owls created and sustained the bad socioeconomic conditions in Gotham that may possibly have propelled Chill to do what he randomly did.

    I don't like to go back and re-read those emails, given the acrimony, but, like in this thread, I think I moved Scott perhaps the most by pointing out the Jeph Loeb S/B thing with Loeb, at a continuity time when Chill was not yet back in clear canon after Zero Hour, having Batman think for a moment that John Corben Metallo was the Wayne murderer. I think Scott really agreed with me that we can't, as a practical matter, have writers just keep being able to pull stunts like that (which have the dangerous effect of giving the impression that Batman spends his whole crimefighting life waiting around for a big break in the Wayne murder case as if that's the main thing that keeps him crimefighting, this vengeful drive to resolve that case).



    From old article referencing an old now-gone podcast:
    "Scott mentioned on our podcast that he didn't want to change the killing of Thomas and Martha or Joe Chill's part in it."
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/artic...r/1100-144031/

    [Scott Snyder's] first arc was the “Court of Owls” saga, a brilliant meta-thriller that pits Batman against an ancient and powerful organization, while also probing the fascination with conspiracies—our compulsion to look for hidden strings.

    In flashbacks, once again, we learn that a teenage Wayne earnestly searched for what he thought were the collaborators in his parents’ death, only to discover there were none.

    “I couldn’t accept that it was random. That some plain old Joe Chill, some no-name, had killed my parents over nothing but pocket change and pearls,” Wayne says. “Deep down, I believed—I knew—there had to be something bigger at work.”
    https://ordinary-times.com/2020/04/0...nymous-figure/
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-27-2022 at 06:08 AM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  12. #87
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I don't think "demonic spiritual influence" is a tangible excuse for the Wayne murders and I think even in a world of mystical weird **** Bruce is an evidence-based detective and at the end of the day he's a "free will" guy and when Joe Chill done his parents in, that's real to him, and the rest is this weird cosmology his Batman career got involved in. So Bruce brushing up against a Barbatos that has a contigual presence making Gotham into a place where things like the Wayne Murders happen is fine by me. You can't arrest or even "defeat" a demon. Even if you get to the point in your superhero career where you can punch a tangible version of said Demon in the face, it's still basically just a living metaphor. (The Snyder issue, to point, is that his whole historical grounded conspiracy theory is rooted in Batman's personal demons and nightmares once the Court of Owls are set about bringing a tangible nightmare Barbatos into power. But once you factor for all the references back to Morrison's New Gods Ancestor Box it actually works itself out - Darkseid weaponized Batman's history and it continues to attack him and time has no meaning in this.)
    You know, I think you might be onto to something with this point. Barbatos (or Gotham as this like living "hungry" city or Darkseid's Omega Sanction life-trap) does feel different from other non-"random" Wayne murder explanations that I have some distaste for. I have to think (for a very long time probably, lol) about how I might more fully articulate all this. But interesting point indeed.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-27-2022 at 06:23 AM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Fascinating. I remember the very strange time period when Jeph Loeb and many other writers (Office Down was where I first remember reading it) were pushing the "the Waynes weren't killed by Joe Chill" stuff. I think an over-focus on Batman's origin obscures the fact that his mission is what people like about him, not his origin.
    That was a Denny O’Neil/ Doug Moench/ Chuck Dixon-era twist. Detective # 678 featured Batman learning that Chill might not have been the killer, and Batman # 0 confirmed “the killer was never found.”
    Cheers - CL

  14. #89
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    That was a Denny O’Neil/ Doug Moench/ Chuck Dixon-era twist. Detective # 678 featured Batman learning that Chill might not have been the killer, and Batman # 0 confirmed “the killer was never found.”
    Yup, Zero Hour change, and for me, it's one of Denny's rare big blunders. Sadly, I once read an interview* with Dixon, who I mostly love, and he made a comment that suggested he might have been a driving or supporting force for the change: Dixon said that Batman would stop crimefighting if his parents' killer was caught/solved. And that's a view I very much don't share (not to mention being a view contradicted by Bill Finger himself in 1948).

    *google results are suggesting to me that it will be most difficult to find this interview again, though here's an interview where Dixon says his Batman ending would see Bruce retire https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/...batmans-story/
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 07-27-2022 at 07:46 AM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Yup, Zero Hour change, and for me, it's one of Denny's rare big blunders. Sadly, I once read an interview* with Dixon, who I mostly love, and he made a comment that suggested he might have been a driving force for the change: Dixon said that Batman would stop crimefighting if his parents' killer was caught/solved. And that's a view I very much don't share.

    *google results are suggesting to me that it will be most difficult to find this interview again, though here's an interview where Dixon says his Batman ending would see Bruce retire https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/...batmans-story/
    Yea I think the idea was that if the killer was unknown, Batman was symbolically avenging his parents’ death with each criminal he stopped, because any of them could be “the one”. I agree it was a misstep, much like the ill-fated “he’s an urban legend and no one thinks he is real and we definitely don’t understand what urban legends are” idea.
    Cheers - CL

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