Chimney a Constantine HBO MAX series

[Somecrazyaussie]

Again, there's a difference between what pops up in your head and what is actually important to the story. What about any Hellblazer story hinges on John Constantine looking like Sting?

Batman and Superman looking the way they do is intrinsically important to their stories. Superman just isn't Superman without his cape and Batman's cowl and gadgets are big plot points...but what about being a smarmy jack ass who fights demons and monsters needs him to specifically be a blonde haired white guy?

Again I'd point to Wright as Gordon, he definitely isn't a red haired white guy but he's arguably the best Jim Gordon I've seen on screen which is saying something when that list includes Gary Oldman. And it's the same here, sure Constantine has always looked like Sting...but that look isn't actually what makes the character interesting, it's not why people come back to the stories again and again. What's important is who he is and how he sees the world...and you don't need to be a white guy to portray those characteristics on screen.

All right, let's have that discussion if you wish. What about any John Constantine story hinges on them casting a POC? For that matter why must Bruce Wayne always be a portrayed as a white guy of privilege? Because that seems to be the default most go for. As you point out, it's the cowl, cape, gadgets and the tragic backstory that's needed.

Look, i get what you are saying, but John Constantine look is just as iconic as Batman or Superman. Every character with longevity owes their success to their look and stories told about them. That's why they spend so much time and effort into character designs that go through endless revision before getting approval. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The fact is, these Hollywood types keep trying to reinvent something that isn't broken. Take what's on the damn page and put it on the screen. It's not rocket science and WB wonders why Marvel is trouncing them six ways to Sunday.

[thwhtGuardian]

All right, let's have that discussion if you wish. Why must Bruce Wayne always be a portrayed as a white guy of privilege? Because that seems to be the default most go for. As you point out, it's the cowl, cape, gadgets and the tragic backstory that's needed.

The fact is, these Hollywood types keep trying to reinvent something that isn't broken. Take what's on the damn page and put it on the screen. It's not rocket science and WB wonders why Marvel is trouncing them six ways to Sunday.

He doesn't need to be white either, I'd be more than fine with a black Bruce Wayne, or an asian Bruce, or a native american Bruce. There's nothing about Batman or Bruce Wayne that intrinsically requires him to be white.

As long as he does brooding, injured socialite well and looks good in the cape and cowl then I'm not bothered by the race of the actor at all.

A character like Luke Cage or Black Panther or John Stewart is a different matter, but Batman, Superman and yes John Constantine don't need to be white. Whiteness isn't part of the appeal of their characters, so why be bothered if they aren't white?

[Immortal Weapon]

The real problem here is JJ Abrams. Not who gets to be Constantine.

[thwhtGuardian]

The real problem here is JJ Abrams. Not who gets to be Constantine.

I'd be okay with someone simply voicing displeasure with Abrams involvement, but that simply isn't the case here.

[Somecrazyaussie]

He doesn't need to be white either, I'd be more than fine with a black Bruce Wayne, or an asian Bruce, or a native american Bruce. There's nothing about Batman or Bruce Wayne that intrinsically requires him to be white.

As long as he does brooding, injured socialite well and looks good in the cape and cowl then I'm not bothered by the race of the actor at all.

A character like Luke Cage or Black Panther or John Stewart is a different matter, but Batman, Superman and yes John Constantine don't need to be white. Whiteness isn't part of the appeal of their characters, so why be bothered if they aren't white?

Come off it. That's double standards. No character should be deviated from that upon which the author intended. If Constantine was drawn to be white, he should stay that way. Same goes for any other character who isn't white.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The real problem here is JJ Abrams. Not who gets to be Constantine.

He is a very big problem in my opinion. We have a term for people like that where I come from: Sex Fingers. Everything he touches ends up f@#ked.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I'd be okay with someone simply voicing displeasure with Abrams involvement, but that simply isn't the case here.

I've voiced my displeasure about him a few pages back. Liked him once, but his stuff since Star Trek Into Darkness has been a disaster from a storytelling point.

[choptop]

Come off it. That's double standards. No character should be deviated from that upon which the author intended. If Constantine was drawn to be white, he should stay that way. Same goes for any other character who isn't white.

I personally don't care.

[numberthirty]

I personally don't care.

Exactly.

I never really had any issue with Tulip not being a "White..." lady in the AMC series. Didn't even have much of an issue with that the character was essentially something almost completely written for the small screen.

Just had an issue that it was essentially Preacher in name only.

That they went out of their way to find a nice "White..." Jesse Custer, and made sure he looked the part?

It didn't amount to much when he wasn't really anything like "Comics..." Jesse Custer.

[thwhtGuardian]

Come off it. That's double standards. No character should be deviated from that upon which the author intended. If Constantine was drawn to be white, he should stay that way. Same goes for any other character who isn't white.

It's not a double standard...why is being white is actually important to him as a character?

That he was drawn that way isn't an answer, because it isn't actually part of who he is as a person. You don't have to be white to be a likable *******. You don't have to be white to be self centered. You don't have to be white to be jaded or sarcastic...and those are the important characteristics of Constantine.

On the other side of the coin, I'm not going to buy that a white guy is the king of secretive African nation, so yeah Black Panther has to stay black. Likewise if Luke Cage isn't black then you lose the whole racism of the criminal justice system angle that is a huge part of his story, so that too is needed...but what do you lose about Constantine's story and character if he isn't white?

The answer?

Nothing.

[Somecrazyaussie]

It's not a double standard...why is being white is actually important to him as a character?

That he was drawn that way isn't an answer, because it isn't actually part of who he is as a person. You don't have to be white to be a likable *******. You don't have to be white to be self centered. You don't have to be white to be jaded or sarcastic...and those are the important characteristics of Constantine.

On the other side of the coin, I'm not going to buy that a white guy is the king of secretive African nation, so yeah Black Panther has to stay black. Likewise if Luke Cage isn't black then you lose the whole racism of the criminal justice system angle that is a huge part of his story, so that too is needed...but what do you lose about Constantine's story and character if he isn't white?

The answer?

Nothing.

The point I made is that they intend to change so much that they may as well just not call it Constantine at all. Then you got some bee in your bonnet about it. I don't like when they veer too much from the source material or make radical changes to characters. As I stated, that's my opinion. I don't like it and that's that. I prefer my John to be how I've always read him: visuals and all. Matt Ryan did a great job (even if I do prefer John to be older).

But you seem dead set on having the final say on the matter for whatever reason. So I'll leave it with you.

[thwhtGuardian]

The point I made is that they intend to change so much that they may as well just not call it Constantine at all. Then you got some bee in your bonnet about it. I don't like when they veer too much from the source material or make radical changes to characters. As I stated, that's my opinion. I don't like it and that's that. I prefer my John to be how I've always read him: visuals and all. Matt Ryan did a great job (even if I do prefer John to be older).

But you seem dead set on having the final say on the matter for whatever reason. So I'll leave it with you.

...But with this casting they're not changing anything important and certainly not changing so much that he'd be unrecognizable as a character just because he's black.

Did I miss the part where they said that in this show Constantine isn't going to be a sarcastic, self centered, jaded grifter who takes on supernatural threats when he feels like it?

Because THAT would be changing everything that's intrinsically John Constantine, and then yeah I'd be right there with you in saying that it would be Constantine in name only.

But being white has nothing to do with any of that, so just changing that one, single aspect alone doesn't actually change the character at all.

[Catlady in training]

Not sure about being derogatory for non-straight men. I know calling a black person a chimney sweep was a slur back in the day.

That's what I meant, but I only knew it was used for gay/bi men.

It's not a double standard...why is being white is actually important to him as a character?

The way I see it, a central part of his character is him being from working-class background from northern England. Back in late 80's, it was probably a given that such a character would be white, but now the demographics have changed, so a character like him being black isn't out of question.

I get that some people are complaining, his look is rather iconic, to the point that even just changing his hair color is met with criticism. It's understandable that people want to see a comicbook character look similar to what he looks on the page. Still, if I should pick between an accurate look with a poorly adapted story, or different look and correct characterisation with comic-accurate story, I definitely prefer the second option.

[batnbreakfast]

Come off it. That's double standards. No character should be deviated from that upon which the author intended. If Constantine was drawn to be white, he should stay that way. Same goes for any other character who isn't white.

Maybe Jamie Oliver could play Constantine. He's British and blond.

[Somecrazyaussie]

...But with this casting they're not changing anything important and certainly not changing so much that he'd be unrecognizable as a character just because he's black.

Did I miss the part where they said that in this show Constantine isn't going to be a sarcastic, self centered, jaded grifter who takes on supernatural threats when he feels like it?

Because THAT would be changing everything that's intrinsically John Constantine, and then yeah I'd be right there with you in saying that it would be Constantine in name only.

But being white has nothing to do with any of that, so just changing that one, single aspect alone doesn't actually change the character at all.

Good Lord, you are like a dog with a bone.

The thing with Hollywood is they have this need right now to try to diversify things. Now, diversity is a good thing. But the constant changing of pre-existing characters race, gender etc really needs to stop. It's not the correct way to go about addressing the imbalances that Hollywood itself has created.

The look of John is just as important as the character. It is for any character in existence. If you don't think that, it's cool. But it doesn't mean it isn't true. This looks nothing like the comics. For a comic adaptation, that's a big problem in my book. Hollywood botched it once. Now they are botching it again and there is no other reason other than "because"

Noticed what happened when Matt Ryan was cast? Nobody really complained. Because he had both the look and feel of the character down.