Tounament of OP characters nomination thread

[Cody]

Just moving fast doesn't let you fight at that speed.

Yes it does, it means your brain can process information at that speed and your body can move with it. This isn't like flying travel speed which is usually vastly different from the users reaction speed, this is physical movement.

I was talking about combat speed.

Combat reaction speed is related to reaction speed/ones reflexes.

It's instantaneous, invisible, and hits everywhere in the area at once. You can't dodge it.

Anyone fast enough to blitz Luffy would be able to dodge it

What board rules? It's a board rule that you can claim combat speed feats characters don't have?

Except they do have it when they show the reflexes to do it. It doesn't always have to be in a fight, it could be q complex action done at superspeed. It shows a high level of reflexes which correlates with combat speed.

There he only appears to have 5 arms at once, not a hundred.

It's next to impossible to draw that many arms in a small panel. The fact is he hit Doomaday several thousand times in a second. That's far more than anything Luffy has shown to do. Otherwise you'll have to prove Luffy is fast enough to hit someone over 4000x in an instant, let alone keep up with someone who could.

That's not combat speed.

Reaction speed correlates to combat speed. It's all connected to ones reflexes, and putting a moon back together at super speed is a hell of a lot more complicated than throwing a punch.

[The MunchKING]

I don't know what the guy from that movie could do, probably nothing because he doesn't seem like a fighter. But if he had better combat speed he could beat him.

That's the point. MetroMan is so much faster, there's literally nothing ANYONE in that scene could have done.

He's the Superman Analogue, Luffy is the MegaMind.

Just moving fast doesn't let you fight at that speed.

When it involves moving all parts of your body in reaction to stimuli, what's the difference?

Actually being able to fight at that speed.

Enlighten me. If he can do literally everything else at Superspeed, not just travel, but actually read books and perform surgery and gather every rock in the moon or whatever else, what is the difference between that and fighting?

Especially when it wouldn't be a fight anyway?

I was talking about combat speed. Stuff from American comics might have more oomph than Luffy does sometimes, but I have never seen them having greater combat speed.

They have better all around speed for loads of stuff, like Flash depopulating a city in under a nanosecond.

It's instantaneous,

From a One Piece character's perspective.

invisible,

To people that see in normal radiation frequencies.

and hits everywhere in the area at once. You can't dodge it.

Oh, you'll find I can dodge a lot of stuff you wouldn't think was possible. But enough about me and video game physics, Superman is capable of just moving out of the way, even if "out of the way" means on the moon or something.

What board rules? It's a board rule that you can claim combat speed feats characters don't have?

It's a rule that speed feats for reaction times are speed feat for combat.

There he only appears to have 5 arms at once, not a hundred.

Alright, I'm sure you have a manga screen shot where the artist drew LITERALLY 100 hands, not just 5 or 10 for Luffy, right?

[XZJACK]

Yes it does, it means your brain can process information at that speed and your body can move with it. This isn't like flying travel speed which is usually vastly different from the users reaction speed, this is physical movement.

Physical movement doesn't equal combat speed. If you can't strike and block at that speed it's meaningless.

Combat reaction speed is related to reaction speed/ones reflexes.

It can be 'related' but it's not a substitute.

Anyone fast enough to blitz Luffy would be able to dodge it

No, they wouldn't be able to dodge it. But someone could defeat or knock him out before he could use it. But only someone with faster combat speed than him.

Except they do have it when they show the reflexes to do it. It doesn't always have to be in a fight, it could be q complex action done at superspeed. It shows a high level of reflexes which correlates with combat speed.

No. Reading books or building stuff isn't the same as fighting. For one thing, there isn't an enemy trying to fight back.

It's next to impossible to draw that many arms in a small panel. The fact is he hit Doomaday several thousand times in a second. That's far more than anything Luffy has shown to do. Otherwise you'll have to prove Luffy is fast enough to hit someone over 4000x in an instant, let alone keep up with someone who could.

No, he only hit him 5 times. You keep talking about your rules, but here you are breaking one of your own rules:

What is narrative hyperbole?
Narrative hyperbole is when the narrator of a comic book says one thing while the action drawn on the pages clearly show something else. Sometimes, in the case of speech hyperbole, it is a character who says one thing, while the pages show differently. This does not mean the narrator or the character is always wrong. It only means that in the case of such conflict, the actual scenes overrule the narrator or character text. An example of this would be the Ten-Eyed Man, who Batman and the narrator called "the most dangerous man alive", and who was actually a very lame and low-powered character.

He says 4000 times but we only see 5 arms. So it was only 5 times.

Reaction speed correlates to combat speed. It's all connected to ones reflexes, and putting a moon back together at super speed is a hell of a lot more complicated than throwing a punch.

The moon isn't trying to punch you back.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Take it up with Oda Eiichiro, he invented haki and wrote how it works.

I am well aware of how haki works. The part you're making up is that Superman wouldn't be able to resist the effects of Emperor's haki (which Luffy wouldn't have a chance to use anyway since he's a statue to Superman) with his own enormous well of willpower simply because he's not from One Piece.

Oda never made any rules for how willpower from other universes would interact with haki. Luffy has only ever knocked out scrubs with his emperor's haki. There is no reason why Superman wouldn't be able to resist. Not that he would need to since he would blitz Luffy before anything else happens.

[The MunchKING]

Physical movement doesn't equal combat speed. If you can't strike and block at that speed it's meaningless.

Striking and Blocking IS moving.

No, they wouldn't be able to dodge it.

I'm sure you have feats of it blowing up the moon, sun , and every point in the galaxy every time Luffy uses this move, right?

No. Reading books or building stuff isn't the same as fighting. For one thing, there isn't an enemy trying to fight back.

There won't be for Superman either.

No, he only hit him 5 times. You keep talking about your rules, but here you are breaking one of your own rules:



He says 4000 times but we only see 5 arms. So it was only 5 times.

So show us Luffy with literally 100 arms drawn.

I know that's WAY more that Toriyama ever did. He only drew 8 on special occasions.

[XZJACK]

That's the point. MetroMan is so much faster, there's literally nothing ANYONE in that scene could have done.

He's the Superman Analogue, Luffy is the MegaMind.

Wrong. Luffy has better combat speed.

When it involves moving all parts of your body in reaction to stimuli, what's the difference?

Tell you what, how about you try practicing fighting against a dummy that doesn't move, and see how fast you can punch it, then try fighting a real martial artist. If all you have experience with is punching an inanimate object, you will get owned.

Enlighten me. If he can do literally everything else at Superspeed, not just travel, but actually read books and perform surgery and gather every rock in the moon or whatever else, what is the difference between that and fighting?

Especially when it wouldn't be a fight anyway?

Because none of those require fighting skill and real combat.

They have better all around speed for loads of stuff, like Flash depopulating a city in under a nanosecond.

Again that is not combat speed. What part of COMBAT speed do you not understand?

Oh, you'll find I can dodge a lot of stuff you wouldn't think was possible. But enough about me and video game physics, Superman is capable of just moving out of the way, even if "out of the way" means on the moon or something.

If he knows in advance it's coming, and even then, you're saying that all he can do is run away. That means he loses.

It's a rule that speed feats for reaction times are speed feat for combat.

That's just dumb. By that logic, video game speedrunners are as good as professional boxers. Show me where this is a rule.

Alright, I'm sure you have a manga screen shot where the artist drew LITERALLY 100 hands, not just 5 or 10 for Luffy, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGnd9dR8tnc

[XZJACK]

I am well aware of how haki works. The part you're making up is that Superman wouldn't be able to resist the effects of Emperor's haki (which Luffy wouldn't have a chance to use anyway since he's a statue to Superman) with his own enormous well of willpower simply because he's not from One Piece.

Oda never made any rules for how willpower from other universes would interact with haki. Luffy has only ever knocked out scrubs with his emperor's haki. There is no reason why Superman wouldn't be able to resist. Not that he would need to since he would blitz Luffy before anything else happens.

Superman isn't a One Piece character, he doesn't have haki. If he had some similar spiritual power like reiatsu or ki he could resist it, but he doesn't have those either. He's SOL. And he's way too slow in combat to even hit Luffy.

[XZJACK]

Striking and Blocking IS moving.

Yeah but it requires a lot more than just moving. People can build machines that move way faster than a boxer, but they have never built a robot the same size and weight as a boxer that can beat one in a boxing match.

I'm sure you have feats of it blowing up the moon, sun , and every point in the galaxy every time Luffy uses this move, right?

I already said it won't reach the moon, but he can only run away to the moon if he knows it's coming, and even if he does, that's running from the fight and he loses by default.

There won't be for Superman either.

Yeah there will. Monkey D. Luffy.

So show us Luffy with literally 100 arms drawn.

I know that's WAY more that Toriyama ever did. He only drew 8 on special occasions.

I posted a clip beforehand.

[Cody]

Physical movement doesn't equal combat speed.

that is literally how physical movement in combat works yes it is.

If you can't strike and block at that speed it's meaningless.

If you can do something more complicated than punching or blocking at that speed then no, it isn't.

It can be 'related' but it's not a substitute.

It's literally connected.

No, they wouldn't be able to dodge it. But someone could defeat or knock him out before he could use it. But only someone with faster combat speed than him.

Which Supes is ^_^

No. Reading books or building stuff isn't the same as fighting.

Indeed, it's better because it requires more than throwing a punch or moving out of the way, but reading and processing complicated information at that speed which makes it arguably more impressive than simply throwing a punch at that speed.

For one thing, there isn't an enemy trying to fight back.

Doesn't really matter when the enemy is slower than frozen molasses from the perspective of the one with super speed :-)

No, he only hit him 5 times. You keep talking about your rules, but here you are breaking one of your own rules:



He says 4000 times but we only see 5 arms. So it was only 5 times.

Except that isn't what is happening when he is moving at superspeed and actively counting his punches while making a reference to the Flash. By this logic, Luffy certainly wasn't moving as fast as your claiming as there is no way the artist could draw hundreds of arms in a panel.

The moon isn't trying to punch you back.

No, it's in pieces and he is putting it together. That's far more complicated than throwing a punch. If he can do that at that speed, then he can fight at that speed. You're basically the only person on the planet that would argue otherwise at this point since I've never seen anyone try this hard to downplay speed feats by separating physical actions to the degree you're doing. Even on really terrible debate sites that think flying travel speed somehow correlates with reaction speed, no one has ever tried to claim performing complicated actions at super speed somehow didn't correlate to combat, because it doesn't make any sense, that's how reflexes work.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

[The MunchKING]

Wrong. Luffy has better combat speed.

I'm still waiting for the feats.

Tell you what, how about you try practicing fighting against a dummy that doesn't move, and see how fast you can punch it, then try fighting a real martial artist. If all you have experience with is punching an inanimate object, you will get owned.

That would be your skill, not your speed. If I moved so fast that the other guy couldn't hit me no matter how skilled he is, then I would NOT get owned.

Because none of those require fighting skill and real combat.

Neither will Superman fighting Luffy. Because, again, you haven't shown any Luffy speed feats at all.

Again that is not combat speed. What part of COMBAT speed do you not understand?

The difference.

If he knows in advance it's coming, and even then, you're saying that all he can do is run away. That means he loses.

Luffy would think that when he's doing 20-life in Strykers after he TOTALLY DID HIS COOL MOVE GUYS!!

But somehow he still ended up getting thrown in jail by Superman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGnd9dR8tnc

Luffy Attack.jpg

SO I count like 20 in that screenshot, some of those are clearly feet though.

Also he's just spamming his punches wildly, not even TRYING to hit the guy, as seen by the guy just running straight through all Luffy's attacks. Heck he isn't even LOOKING IN RIGHT DIRECTION! As far as a "reaction time" speed feat it's kind of garbage. I mean it shows he can throw a lot of attacks, but he's not actually reacting to anything he's just waving his arms wildly until he gets luck and throws out SO MANY shots the other guy runs into it...


But by your logic, does that mean Luffy is faster than Goku (because he only showed 8 arms that one time) who is faster than Superman who only showed five in one panel? Is that the sole basis?

[The MunchKING]

Yeah but it requires a lot more than just moving. People can build machines that move way faster than a boxer, but they have never built a robot the same size and weight as a boxer that can beat one in a boxing match.

Because Boxing has rules about how you're allowed to hit people. They absolutely have built machines that can beat a boxer in a FIGHT.

I already said it won't reach the moon, but he can only run away to the moon if he knows it's coming, and even if he does, that's running from the fight and he loses by default.

Even if he's back before you, and anyone else know he's gone?

Yeah there will. Monkey D. Luffy.

Who won't be trying to fight on account of his brain having not realized the bell has rung yet.

Except that isn't what is happening when he is moving at superspeed and actively counting his punches while making a reference to the Flash. By this logic, Luffy certainly wasn't moving as fast as your claiming as there is no way the artist could draw hundreds of arms in a panel.

"Could"? Maybe. "WOULD on an animator's budget"? No way.

[big_adventure]

Wrong. Luffy has better combat speed.



Tell you what, how about you try practicing fighting against a dummy that doesn't move, and see how fast you can punch it, then try fighting a real martial artist. If all you have experience with is punching an inanimate object, you will get owned.



Because none of those require fighting skill and real combat.



Again that is not combat speed. What part of COMBAT speed do you not understand?



If he knows in advance it's coming, and even then, you're saying that all he can do is run away. That means he loses.



That's just dumb. By that logic, video game speedrunners are as good as professional boxers. Show me where this is a rule.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGnd9dR8tnc

The classic example:

Mister X, a telepath who is a comic peak human master combattant, has aquired Gugnir, the freaking spear of Odin. He's about to kill some heroes when Quicksilver shows up. Quicksilver uses a piece of pipe and snide comments to utterly destroy Mister X.

https://panels-of-interest.tumblr.co...m-thunderbolts

This is a master fighter who can read minds to predict all incoming attacks to counter them perfectly, and he's wielding one of the most powerful artifacts on the planet. Quicky, a crap fighter by his own admission, proceeds to show you why reaction speed conquers when the difference is sufficiently great.

The difference between Luffy and Superman is about as vast as between Mister X and Quicksilver, but Supes hits insanely harder than Quicky does.

Putting this to your example above: Luffy is effectively a punching dummy to Clark. Luffy might be massively more skilled but it simply doesn't matter at all because Superman wouldn't need any skill at all to blitz Luffy and rip his head off.

It's like Saitama against various martial artists and skilled fighters in OPM - he has no skill, he has no technique, but he doesn't need it, he humiliates the masters and their masterful techniques because he's gigantically stronger and faster than everyone else in his world.

[Sharpandpointies]

XZJACK, you are falling into the common misconception that because one human is really fast at doing a non-combat thing, and that human cannot beat up a boxer, it means that the speed someone has must be shown to involve fighting for it to be worthwhile (your speed-guitarist comparison).

This is incorrect, and relies on a comparison of normal human speed that has been trained to do one thing versus normal human speed that has been trained to do another. Of course the speed-guitarist cannot beat up the boxer; they still see the world the same way the boxer does, they still have reflexes in the same order of magnitude as the boxer, their smooth, trained, but still perfectly human speed with a guitar (being the result of training, not some kind of supernatural augmentation to their OVERALL reflexes) isn't a trained ability to fight.

But this doesn't take into account beings whose overall reflexes are augmented past that of the boxer.

If a character can interact with their environment - not just travel from point A to point B, but actually do stuff at superspeed - then they have those overall augmented reflexes. If the speed guitarist suddenly received some kind of magical gift of superspeed, such that they now have reflexes 100x faster than is humanly possible, capable of reacting to things in 0.001 seconds, the boxer's punches would look like slow-motion in a video (as would the boxer's overall movement). And yes, at that point the speed guitarist would be perfectly capable of beating up a skilled individual who is 100x slower than them, even without any real skill at fighting.

It's pretty simple to demonstrate; one just needs to start up a DVD of a martial arts movie, set it to 1/10th playback, and consider...could you fight a trained person moving at that speed? And that's at 10x speed difference (which really doesn't exist between humans in the real world).

So here, on Rumbles, we feel that if Superman is capable of performing complex surgery so fast people don't realize he has even moved, he's perfectly capable of throwing hundreds of punches in the same amount of time, if not more. Essentially, he can fight at whatever speeds he can interact with his environment in any kind of complex, meaningful way (rather than just moving through it at speed).

This isn't the first time someone has come onto Rumbles and attempted this fallacious argument.

[XZJACK]

that is literally how physical movement in combat works yes it is.

So then again, you are saying Usain Bolt can beat Canelo Alvarez.

If you can do something more complicated than punching or blocking at that speed then no, it isn't.

Typing coherent sentences on a computer is more complicated than punching and blocking, so according to you, the world's fastest typists can beat up the world's best MMA fighters.

It's literally connected.

But it's not a replacement for it.

Which Supes is ^_^

Prove it. I've never seen him showing combat speed like Luffy does.

Indeed, it's better because it requires more than throwing a punch or moving out of the way, but reading and processing complicated information at that speed which makes it arguably more impressive than simply throwing a punch at that speed.

Okay, then let's have a match between the world's fastest readers and the world's best boxers. Who do you think would win?

Doesn't really matter when the enemy is slower than frozen molasses from the perspective of the one with super speed :-)

That's why so-called super speed characters in comics are always getting hit by normal humans? Superman has been hit by Batman. You think Batman is faster than Luffy too?

Except that isn't what is happening when he is moving at superspeed and actively counting his punches while making a reference to the Flash. By this logic, Luffy certainly wasn't moving as fast as your claiming as there is no way the artist could draw hundreds of arms in a panel.

He certainly drew a lot more than 5.

No, it's in pieces and he is putting it together. That's far more complicated than throwing a punch. If he can do that at that speed, then he can fight at that speed.

No. That requires no fighting skill, no dodging, no martial arts, no trying to counter an opponent. It's not the same at all.

You're basically the only person on the planet that would argue otherwise at this point since I've never seen anyone try this hard to downplay speed feats by separating physical actions to the degree you're doing. Even on really terrible debate sites that think flying travel speed somehow correlates with reaction speed, no one has ever tried to claim performing complicated actions at super speed somehow didn't correlate to combat, because it doesn't make any sense, that's how reflexes work.

Try thinking for a second about how things work in real life. There are people who can hit a keyboard a dozen times every second, but that doesn't make them amazing fighters.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

Doesn't matter.

I'm still waiting for the feats.

I showed you one.

That would be your skill, not your speed. If I moved so fast that the other guy couldn't hit me no matter how skilled he is, then I would NOT get owned.

You can always hit someone if you are more skilled than them and have better combat speed.

Neither will Superman fighting Luffy. Because, again, you haven't shown any Luffy speed feats at all.

Yes I did.

The difference.

Well sorry then, I can't help you. Maybe try learning martial arts and fighting for real and you'll figure it out.

Luffy would think that when he's doing 20-life in Strykers after he TOTALLY DID HIS COOL MOVE GUYS!!

But somehow he still ended up getting thrown in jail by Superman.

How? You can't hold him in any jail unless they have Seastone.

SO I count like 20 in that screenshot, some of those are clearly feet though.

Count frame by frame, there are more than that. Besides, that was only Gear 1. In Gears 2, 4, and 5 he is way way faster.

Also he's just spamming his punches wildly, not even TRYING to hit the guy, as seen by the guy just running straight through all Luffy's attacks. Heck he isn't even LOOKING IN RIGHT DIRECTION!

That's because Enel was using Mantra, which is like mind reading. He could predict all of Luffy's attacks when he aimed them, so by bouncing them off the wall, they became unpredictable. That shows Luffy has combat skill too, to figure that out.

As far as a "reaction time" speed feat it's kind of garbage. I mean it shows he can throw a lot of attacks, but he's not actually reacting to anything he's just waving his arms wildly until he gets luck and throws out SO MANY shots the other guy runs into it...


But by your logic, does that mean Luffy is faster than Goku (because he only showed 8 arms that one time) who is faster than Superman who only showed five in one panel? Is that the sole basis?

Goku is faster than Luffy because he has fought against people with faster combat speed like Beerus and Jiren.

[XZJACK]

Because Boxing has rules about how you're allowed to hit people. They absolutely have built machines that can beat a boxer in a FIGHT.

But not a fistfight. You can also beat a boxer by poisoning him, that doesn't make you a better fighter than him.

Even if he's back before you, and anyone else know he's gone?

If he comes back he gets knocked out by the haki.

Who won't be trying to fight on account of his brain having not realized the bell has rung yet.

Luffy is faster than Batman I'm pretty sure.