Who was a better Spider-Man writer: Dan Slott or Nick Spencer?

[Spiderfan001]

Right. But that's not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing Spiderfan001's claim that Dan Slott destroyed more than he built. That's something that can be determined somewhat objectively. Dan added a lot of new characters, locations, concepts, special suits and so on to the series, while also setting up a lot of spin-off titles. Did he really subtract (through character deaths etc.) more than he added? Is this something that is provably true?

Yes, yes he did.I'll list ass many as I can remember off the top of my

1.Black Cat:- Queenpin(Fixed by Spencer)

2Ben Reilly:-Jackal(Fixed and then broken again rn)

3.Doc Ock:- SA's women half his age, when doesn't get his way w/ MJ goes through Peter's private memories of them together (Fixed by Gage)

4.MJ:- Constantly berates Peter on how bad their relationship was for her, leaves him at his lowest because superhero stuff is too much and then goes to work for Tony Stark, kisses Peter and then tells him that she can't do this,etc. He also thinks PeterMJ's love was Anti-Marvel...(Fixed by Spencer)

https://douglasernst.blog/2015/10/21...s-anti-marvel/

Ah yes Ock and Anna is better, as if he wasn't in another man's body and Anna didn't know who he really was(a mass murdering body stealing super villain)

4.Peter:-Immature, Irresponsible af, Slott Constantly humiliates him for no reason, specially in his last run.Just generally terribly written for a large chunk of his run specially towards the end, made him a billionare, he's written like a supporting character in his own book (Fixed by Spencer, maybe broken again rn )

5.Killing off many characters like Flash,Hobgoblin and Kafka way too quick w/ little build up and pay off

Literally everybody including May,MJ,etc. for how no one recognized Peter wasn't himself during Superior instantly

This is ignoring the stuff he did w/ new characters like Silk and her pheromones

Also keep in mind Slott was on this for more than a decades, 10+ YEARS and his Peter just got worse.10 years on such a title should make the character far better than where you started him off w/.Also Slott is consistently terrible w/ deadlines and an terrible person online as well

[Lee]

Sorry my man, your argument is based almost entirely around you personally not liking how characters were characterised, not an objective measure of how many new characters/concepts/spinoffs he introduced versus the number of characters/concepts/stories that were killed off, removed or undone.

Dan Slott added a lot to the mythos during his run, a bunch of which has shown up in cartoons, video games and movies. You simply didn't like it. You're allowed to not like it. But the "destroyed more than he built" argument doesn't hold water.

[Pattern_Maker]

I voted for Dan Slott because I liked his ideas, but Nick Spencer had a better grasp on Peter and Mary Jane's voice and characterization for me.

[Tabs]

Very very hard same. Still cannot believe to this day how whisker-close he came to irrevocably ruining Harry. The Kindred mess is still salvageable, I think, future writers don't even have to bring him back to life if they don't want to, but god know it'll probably take years.

Harry is such a weird character to even want to ruin, which leads me to only one conclusion: Spencer probably met James Franco at some point.

I was surprised to learn some fans didn't think this era helped Harry. I've seen some argue that the thing between Menace and his father makes Lyman a "cuck", so "it's good it was retconned." Norman and the trashy writers were the only ones that got my ire after reading that.

A vile wretch of an actor would be a much more understandable reason to hate a character.

[Spiderfan001]

Sorry my man, your argument is based almost entirely around you personally not liking how characters were characterised, not an objective measure of how many new characters/concepts/spinoffs he introduced versus the number of characters/concepts/stories that were killed off, removed or undone.

Dan Slott added a lot to the mythos during his run, a bunch of which has shown up in cartoons, video games and movies. You simply didn't like it. You're allowed to not like it. But the "destroyed more than he built" argument doesn't hold water.

You really saying Queenpin and Jackal/Ben being bad is my personal bias?

Yeah lmao he destroyed what was already built, and filled it w/ his OC's

Very very hard same. Still cannot believe to this day how whisker-close he came to irrevocably ruining Harry. The Kindred mess is still salvageable, I think, future writers don't even have to bring him back to life if they don't want to, but god know it'll probably take years.

Just discuss his legacy and let him stay dead

[Tabs]

Just discuss his legacy and let him stay dead

No, thank you. (Respectfully)
Nick Spencer might have thought he was preserving the old canon, but he failed. Harry's story grew beyond the books he died in and tossing the escaped cat back in the bag has done more harm than good. The only legacy we'd be honoring belongs to Mephisto. F*** the devil. Spidey ensemble assemble.

[Kanos]

I'm voting for Spencer but my recency bias is against Nick since he destroyed one of the actually good ideas from the BND era: Harry Osborn's reintegration into the supporting cast. He ruined his original death and rewrote Mephisto into one of Spiderman's most influential villain's backstory. He's a better character writer for the protagonist and his supporting cast(except Harry) but he didn't write compelling villains. Everyone's a clone and/or influenced by the devil.

Very very hard same. Still cannot believe to this day how whisker-close he came to irrevocably ruining Harry. The Kindred mess is still salvageable, I think, future writers don't even have to bring him back to life if they don't want to, but god know it'll probably take years.

Harry is such a weird character to even want to ruin, which leads me to only one conclusion: Spencer probably met James Franco at some point.

No, thank you. (Respectfully)
Nick Spencer might have thought he was preserving the old canon, but he failed. Harry's story grew beyond the books he died in and tossing the escaped cat back in the bag has done more harm than good. The only legacy we'd be honoring belongs to Mephisto. F*** the devil. Spidey ensemble assemble.

Everything that happened to Harry in Spencer's run was terrible. I was hurt when I saw people say that Spencer "fixed" Harry when he turned him into a clone and killed him. Harry's resurrection didn't destroy Spec #200 because Harry didn't become a villain again. He was the same Harry who left his father in the past and saved his best friend. For me, the ending of Spec #200 was not Harry's end, but his new beginning. It didn't need to be "fixed". But, unfortunately, people didn't care, they thought that his resurrection ruined the story of Mr. DeMatteis (it didn't), but at the same time they fell in love with Kindred-Harry, who was a villain and killed people. It is sad.

[PCN24454]

Everything that happened to Harry in Spencer's run was terrible. I was hurt when I saw people say that Spencer "fixed" Harry when he turned him into a clone and killed him. Harry's resurrection didn't destroy Spec #200 because Harry didn't become a villain again. He was the same Harry who left his father in the past and saved his best friend. For me, the ending of Spec #200 was not Harry's end, but his new beginning. It didn't need to be "fixed". But, unfortunately, people didn't care, they thought that his resurrection ruined the story of Mr. DeMatteis (it didn't), but at the same time they fell in love with Kindred-Harry, who was a villain and killed people. It is sad.

They felt that it was ruined because Harry hated Spider-Man again making it feel like progress was reset even though it wasn’t.

Personally, I never really liked Spec #200, so that may be why I liked BND!Harry’s character arc.

[Matt Rat]

In all fairness, they didn't do much of note with Harry Lyman outside of a couple of stories post-OMD, where it was just your typical "I'm not staying in my father's shadow, I've got a great life to lead", and then proceeded to have years of him doing absolutely nothing other than stay off the grid after all that was over. Liz had far more interesting things going on at the time and was even teasing a heel turn. If they wanted to do anything meaningful with him, they would have done so.

I think a lot of people are too much in love with the earlier post-OMD Harry arcs and don't see how useless and generic he'd become after that. Kindred was the best thing to happen to him in years, and I'd rather have more of the insane Harry supercomputer powered by Mephisto anyday. Evil Harry is my Harry.

Mind you, I've never subscribed to "Harry was the bestest friend Peter ever had" mentality when MJ has went through far more with Peter and ought to qualify as that, Harry was a friend in school and in life, sure, but BEST friend? No. Before he turned to drugs and in between his stints where he went full Goblin, he was just as flat and one-note as Gwen.

[Kanos]

In all fairness, they didn't do much of note with Harry Lyman outside of a couple of stories post-OMD, where it was just your typical "I'm not staying in my father's shadow, I've got a great life to lead", and then proceeded to have years of him doing absolutely nothing other than stay off the grid after all that was over. Liz had far more interesting things going on at the time and was even teasing a heel turn. If they wanted to do anything meaningful with him, they would have done so.

I think a lot of people are too much in love with the earlier post-OMD Harry arcs and don't see how useless and generic he'd become after that. Kindred was the best thing to happen to him in years, and I'd rather have more of the insane Harry supercomputer powered by Mephisto anyday. Evil Harry is my Harry.

Mind you, I've never subscribed to "Harry was the bestest friend Peter ever had" mentality when MJ has went through far more with Peter and ought to qualify as that, Harry was a friend in school and in life, sure, but BEST friend? No. Before he turned to drugs and in between his stints where he went full Goblin, he was just as flat and one-note as Gwen.

No matter how many stories about him came out, a couple or a hundred thousand, these stories developed Harry and respected the ending of Spec #200. Just because he barely showed up in Slott's run doesn't mean he can be turned into a villain again. And such a stupid villain, Kindred is a killer, and Harry Goblin never killed. Spencer could just leave Harry alone, he could live happily with Liz and raise the kids. It's better than becoming a clone and dying in a couple of minutes. Kindred is the best thing that happened to Harry?! What??? Maybe Jackal and the Chasm is the best thing that happened to Ben because Ben didn't do anything in the comics, he was dead and then he lived in Las Vegas? Is Moira Jane the best thing that happened to Mary Jane because she didn't do anything after OMD? Yes, there were a couple of stories from Spencer, but you love them too much.

[Matt Rat]

Kindred is the best thing that happened to Harry?! What??? Maybe Jackal and the Chasm is the best thing that happened to Ben because Ben didn't do anything in the comics, he was dead and then he lived in Las Vegas?

Ben went through rough patches while in Vegas, a constant battle to preserve his life and soul and find common ground with Kaine. A battle he ultimately lost at the close of his run before being fixed in Spider-Geddon. Please use actual examples of characters doing 'nothing' if you want to one-up me here.

Is Moira Jane the best thing that happened to Mary Jane because she didn't do anything after OMD?

MJ did plenty of things after OMD even if we didn't always like what happened. She gained more life experience working for Stark and running a nightclub. Moira hadn't done anything of note before House of X on account of being dead for a decade.

Yes, there were a couple of stories from Spencer, but you love them too much.

Don't use my appreciation of those stories in some thinly-thought out burst of "NO U" please because it misses the point.

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds about their appreciation for post-OMD Harry, all I'm saying is for me it didn't work, nothing noteworthy happened by bringing him back, and he was always better off unhinged. Forget 'mental health awareness' b.s (I say that as someone with mental health issues), sometimes people read comics for a moustache twirling villain with personal connections giving the main protagonist no end of grief, and Spencer delivered. It harkened back to my childhood, and it's so rare to get that nostalgic connection.

You prefer Harry happy, healthy, of sound mind. I prefer Harry tortured, unhinged and insane, coming up with the wackiest schemes to get back at Peter. I enjoy whatever I get if it means I get that. Sorry if you disagree, but there it is.

[Kanos]

Ben went through rough patches while in Vegas, a constant battle to preserve his life and soul and find common ground with Kaine. A battle he ultimately lost at the close of his run before being fixed in Spider-Geddon. Please use actual examples of characters doing 'nothing' if you want to one-up me here.

I told you before that it doesn't matter how many stories come out or how many things the characters do. After his return, Harry tried to help everyone who was dear to him. He had a son Stanley, he cured two Molten Men, saved Peter from the Menace, rebuild the Parker house, helped Aunt May at the f.e.a.s.t., and worked at Parker Industries - that's just what I remember now. He also stepped out of his father's shadow, which is very important for Harry's development. At the end of ASM #800, he rebuilt his family. The only reason Harry didn't show up and do nothing was because Nick Spencer kicked him out. When I said that Ben and MJ didn't do anything, it was sarcasm because they did. Harry did too.

Don't use my appreciation of those stories in some thinly-thought out burst of "NO U" please because it misses the point.

I just used your argument against you.

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds about their appreciation for post-OMD Harry, all I'm saying is for me it didn't work, nothing noteworthy happened by bringing him back, and he was always better off unhinged. Forget 'mental health awareness' b.s (I say that as someone with mental health issues), sometimes people read comics for a moustache twirling villain with personal connections giving the main protagonist no end of grief, and Spencer delivered. It harkened back to my childhood, and it's so rare to get that nostalgic connection.

You prefer Harry happy, healthy, of sound mind. I prefer Harry tortured, unhinged and insane, coming up with the wackiest schemes to get back at Peter. I enjoy whatever I get if it means I get that. Sorry if you disagree, but there it is.

It's your opinion and I respect it, but you didn't say "I love the villain Harry", you said he didn't do anything (that's a lie) and that people love these stories too much. I also respect people who like villain Ben and Peter and Mary Jane's breakup, but that doesn't mean I think those ideas are good.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds about their appreciation for post-OMD Harry, all I'm saying is for me it didn't work, nothing noteworthy happened by bringing him back, and he was always better off unhinged. Forget 'mental health awareness' b.s (I say that as someone with mental health issues), sometimes people read comics for a moustache twirling villain with personal connections giving the main protagonist no end of grief, and Spencer delivered. It harkened back to my childhood, and it's so rare to get that nostalgic connection.

I, ah... Disagree. A lot. I suppose I can't think of anything else to say there except that schizophrenia is one of the most stigmatized disorders in the wonderful world of mental illness, and yeah I know it didn't really happen in the end but having a schizophrenic character (even if the comics never remember he's schizophrenic) jumping around yelling stuff about "hearing voices" while beating the crap out of the hero is just... A bad look. I think Spider-Man SHOULD be doing mental health awareness bs! Actually the Spider-Man writers should be doing all sorts of awareness bs, because they have a million-dollar multi-country platform, the sort of power none of us will ever have in a million years, and with great power... Nah I'm not going to say it.

I prefer Harry tortured, unhinged and insane

This comes up a lot but I also prefer him tortured, unhinged and insane. Yes really. Tortured, unhinged, insane, absolutely hearing voices and having hallucinations, not sure what he's seeing, completely messed up by Norman's abuse... And still at heart a good person who loves his kids and loves Peter and Mary Jane.






AND NOW [rubs hands together] let's talk about how Spencer's retcon of Sins Past managed to be even more misogynistic than the original!

[Matt Rat]

Actually the Spider-Man writers should be doing all sorts of awareness bs, because they have a million-dollar multi-country platform, the sort of power none of us will ever have in a million years, and with great power... Nah I'm not going to say it.

I hear you. So many things Marvel do that has affected me negatively, and OMD crushed me spiritually (bit on a God kick nowadays), you should not be selling characters as pure as Peter and MJ as Satanists.

[Triniking1234]

Marvel portray Spider-Man villains are schizophrenic but also portray them as mentally capable enough to exploit and torture others up to mass scale?

Better choose a lane.