Who was a better Spider-Man writer: Dan Slott or Nick Spencer?

[Lukmendes]

Also pretty sure Spencer solidified Norman was a creep

Yep.





(ASM#850)

I will never understand what anyone sees in Superior.

Spencer had way more enjoyable arcs than the four Slott managed overall for me.

Partially it's a change from Spidey being the samey for so long, but I also think there's how Otto is a more interesting protagonist than Spidey under Slott, Spidey only reacts to events if the plot requires him to, while Otto is more developed.

There's also the thing that whether or not you care about how absolutely moronic the supporting cast is can affect how much you can enjoy the story.

And Norman literally got "fixed" by a magic thingmajig, there was no redemption and Spencer showed us that Norman was always a terrible human being.If you read Spencer's run and though Norman in as whole smelled like roses then that's on you

To be fair, the sins being removed stopped being mentioned as something that is forcing Norman to be good, he has a bonding moment with Normie and ends the story crying about Harry's death.

While "redeemed" isn't quite the right word, he's being treated way better than he should, specially considering how it was made clear that Sin Eater removing someone's sins makes them start acting like he did when he was feeling guilty over his actions as Sin Eater (Stuttering being the most obvious thing everyone who had their sins cleansed do), and during Last Remains itself they stop talking about that particular plot point that the sinless Norman is being forced into guilt.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Again I agree but how is the guy whose trying to fix stuff the problem? He didn't writer Sins Past, he didn't write Gwen OR Norman doing the deed.He just cleared Gwen's name from a OOC moment(it's literally smth editorial did, not even a writer's idea) while also stating that she wasn't the angel fans think she was.

And Norman literally got "fixed" by a magic thingmajig, there was no redemption and Spencer showed us that Norman was always a terrible human being.If you read Spencer's run and though Norman in as whole smelled like roses then that's on you

Oh, he absolutely showed us that Norman was a terrible human being. (Eww, I forgot how totally gross that scene with him and Spider-Gwen was.) Unfortunately the story ends with Norman being more or less excused of his being a terrible human being without having done anything at all to earn that.

Really some of this may boil down to a writing issue rather than a morality one: You can't just magic someone sins away. That makes NO SENSE! Not least because whatever impulse caused you to commit your sins in the first place would still be, presumably, in you?

[TinkerSpider]

Oh, he absolutely showed us that Norman was a terrible human being. (Eww, I forgot how totally gross that scene with him and Spider-Gwen was.) Unfortunately the story ends with Norman being more or less excused of his being a terrible human being without having done anything at all to earn that.

Really some of this may boil down to a writing issue rather than a morality one: You can't just magic someone sins away. That makes NO SENSE! Not least because whatever impulse caused you to commit your sins in the first place would still be, presumably, in you?

Absolutely agree with you which is why I am side-eyeing the upcoming Spider-Goblin solicitations. Even if Peter believes Norman's sins are "gone," why would he work with him?! How many times do you have to be bitten before learning your lesson, Peter?

[Tabs]

It removes Sins Past and AI Harry makes it clear Gwen's standards are too high for her to ever get dicked by Norman, I don't see how that's the case.

Also Spencer has had a lead for a while, wonder if Slott will catch up.

Gwen's drunk friend posted NSFW videos of her up on YouTube in a revenge scheme where her feelings on the matter were never considered. Except, it's more graphic than pictures, YouTube is his old man's brain, and the drunk friend is a demon-possessed AI. Comicbooks.

Some people don't show pregnancies, but Sins Past made no sense because there was no way that woman was expecting twins. If it was an Elseworlds story, where she had shown signs of gestation, the writer could have made it in character for 616 Gwen, provided the writer cared about her character. Instead, Peter's feelings were the only thing that mattered.

In Spencer's attempts to restore a sexist Madonna pedestal that never made sense for the 616 character in the first place, he gave Ms. Stacy, a woman with arguable (minimal but existent) canon evidence supporting an interest in older men before Sins Past, less agency than before the retcon. She's now a victim whose image was used against her will to make another person, her murderer no less, a victim. If the established timeline was correct, he was in the middle of a crisis after killing a man to rescue Gwendolyne and George from Kingpin's lacky. A mentally ill man was feeling, because that was his character at the time, guilt for murdering a guy, and was overwhelmed. Gwen Stacy arrives and again, according to the timeline given by Marvel, sees her rescuer being human in a way he hasn't been since he returned from his death. He's vulnerable, and it's because he did something positive on her and her father's behalf.

I'm confused by the notion of "thank god we're alive sex" because it seems like an odd time for bedside relations when you could be doing anything else. However, scientific studies have shown that adrenaline strongly affects arousal and perceived attraction, and the circumstances would have provoked the adrenalin response. A young adult having sex with an older adult, especially after a stressful situation, doesn't make the young person "weak." That is a hill I am willing to die on. Picture a single woman at an age where she feels she's finally a grown adult and is attracted to older men in addition to guys her age and intelligent people. She lives in a society that underplays men's attraction to young adults as perfectly acceptable. In that case, it creates a backdrop where a vulnerable woman made a mistake she couldn't have realized she made at the time. She's just happy to be alive, and the reason she's alive is in front of her. The situation wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm still confused how their story went from "Thanks for saving me" to "Tommy Lee Jones," but the story never explained her side of anything, which is the writer's fault. And now the question is pointless.

Also, I took Spencer's panel scenes as him threatening her life to upset Peter. It's creepy and likely meant to reference Sins Past in the Reader's/Spider-man's mind to up the disturbing factor. Meanwhile, Osborn's musing out loud how marvelous adding a dead Multiverse Gwen to his Funko Pop collection would be. This is the same man who went on tangents about murdering Gwen in front of Carlie Cooper. YET AGAIN, she does not matter. All the villain cares about is how it would upset Peter Parker. Which it does. Osborn's kicked out and "cleansed".

[Lee]

You can tell just from reading the book

You can tell from just reading it tbh

But the after letters page had indications that they didn't end well as well, not to mention Spencer going to substack right after

Outsider speculation then.

Even if Nick Spencer's run didn't end the way he wanted (and we don't know that), you would have no way of knowing which ideas were his and which weren't.

It's poor form to write venomous things about people (in this case, Nick Lowe) based on speculation.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Gwen's drunk friend posted NSFW videos of her up on YouTube in a revenge scheme where her feelings on the matter were never considered. Except, it's more graphic than pictures, YouTube is his old man's brain, and the drunk friend is a demon-possessed AI. Comicbooks are weird.

Some people don't show pregnancies, but Sins Past made no sense because there was no way that woman was expecting twins. If it was an Elseworlds story, where she had shown signs of gestation, the writer could have made it in character for 616 Gwen, provided the writer cared about her character. Instead, Peter's feelings were the only thing that mattered.

In Spencer's attempts to restore a sexist Madonna pedestal that never made sense for the 616 character in the first place, he gave Ms. Stacy, a woman with arguable (minimal but existent) canon evidence supporting an interest in older men before Sins Past, less agency than before the retcon. She's now a victim whose image was used against her will to make another person, her murderer no less, a victim. If the established timeline was correct, he was in the middle of a crisis after killing a man to rescue Gwendolyne and George from Kingpin's lacky. A mentally ill man was feeling, because that was his character at the time, guilt for unaliving a guy, and was overwhelmed. Gwen Stacy arrives and again, according to the timeline given by Marvel, sees her rescuer being human in a way he hasn't been since he returned from his death. He's vulnerable, and it's because he did something positive on her and her father's behalf.

I'm confused by the notion of "thank god we're alive sex" because it seems like an odd time for bedside relations when you could be doing anything else. But! Science has shown that adrenaline strongly affects arousal and perceived attraction, and the circumstances would have provoked the adrenalin response. A young adult having sex with an older adult, especially after a stressful situation, doesn't make the young person "weak." That is a hill I am willing to die on. Suppose a single woman is at an age where she feels she's finally a grown adult and is attracted to older men(as well as guys her age) and intelligent people. She lives in a society that underplays men's attraction to young adults as perfectly acceptable. In that case, it creates a backdrop where a vulnerable woman made a mistake she couldn't have realized she made at the time. She's just happy to be alive, and the reason she's alive is in front of her. The situation wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm still confused about their story went from "Thanks for saving me" to "Tommy Lee Jones," but the story never explained her side of anything, which is the writer's fault. And now the question is pointless.

Also, I took Spencer's panel as him threatening her life to upset Peter. It's creepy and likely meant to reference Sins Past in the Reader's/Spider-man's mind to up the disturbing factor. Meanwhile, Osborn's musing out loud how marvelous adding a dead Multiverse Gwen to his Funko Pop collection would be. Because, YET AGAIN, she does not matter. All the villain cares about is that it would upset Peter Parker. Which it does.

All of this.

The entire retcon feels like a magnanimous pardon of Gwen for a crime she never actually committed.

[Lukmendes]

Gwen's drunk friend posted NSFW videos of her up on YouTube in a revenge scheme where her feelings on the matter were never considered. Except, it's more graphic than pictures, YouTube is his old man's brain, and the drunk friend is a demon-possessed AI. Comicbooks.

Some people don't show pregnancies, but Sins Past made no sense because there was no way that woman was expecting twins. If it was an Elseworlds story, where she had shown signs of gestation, the writer could have made it in character for 616 Gwen, provided the writer cared about her character. Instead, Peter's feelings were the only thing that mattered.

In Spencer's attempts to restore a sexist Madonna pedestal that never made sense for the 616 character in the first place, he gave Ms. Stacy, a woman with arguable (minimal but existent) canon evidence supporting an interest in older men before Sins Past, less agency than before the retcon. She's now a victim whose image was used against her will to make another person, her murderer no less, a victim. If the established timeline was correct, he was in the middle of a crisis after killing a man to rescue Gwendolyne and George from Kingpin's lacky. A mentally ill man was feeling, because that was his character at the time, guilt for murdering a guy, and was overwhelmed. Gwen Stacy arrives and again, according to the timeline given by Marvel, sees her rescuer being human in a way he hasn't been since he returned from his death. He's vulnerable, and it's because he did something positive on her and her father's behalf.

I'm confused by the notion of "thank god we're alive sex" because it seems like an odd time for bedside relations when you could be doing anything else. However, scientific studies have shown that adrenaline strongly affects arousal and perceived attraction, and the circumstances would have provoked the adrenalin response. A young adult having sex with an older adult, especially after a stressful situation, doesn't make the young person "weak." That is a hill I am willing to die on. Picture a single woman at an age where she feels she's finally a grown adult and is attracted to older men in addition to guys her age and intelligent people. She lives in a society that underplays men's attraction to young adults as perfectly acceptable. In that case, it creates a backdrop where a vulnerable woman made a mistake she couldn't have realized she made at the time. She's just happy to be alive, and the reason she's alive is in front of her. The situation wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm still confused how their story went from "Thanks for saving me" to "Tommy Lee Jones," but the story never explained her side of anything, which is the writer's fault. And now the question is pointless.

Also, I took Spencer's panel scenes as him threatening her life to upset Peter. It's creepy and likely meant to reference Sins Past in the Reader's/Spider-man's mind to up the disturbing factor. Meanwhile, Osborn's musing out loud how marvelous adding a dead Multiverse Gwen to his Funko Pop collection would be. This is the same man who went on tangents about murdering Gwen in front of Carlie Cooper. YET AGAIN, she does not matter. All the villain cares about is how it would upset Peter Parker. Which it does. Osborn's kicked out and "cleansed".

Kinda hard for Gwen to have much agency when it's other characters talking about her, and she's dead, and they're talking about a made-up situation that didn't actually happen, so flashbacks showing her wouldn't do much.

I don't see how the previous explanation about Sins Past is any relevant to what Spencer did, because Sins Past's background didn't happen, so Gwen didn't get dicked by Norman.

The way Norman talks sounds like he wants to be a creep to Spider-Gwen and rile up Spidey once he showed reactions, which pisses off both of them and Gwen makes it clear she doesn't need Spidey to keep defending her.

So yeah, the biggest "problem" here is, Norman is a creepy douchebag who likes to be evil and piss off people? Give me a break, it's in-character for him to be like that.

[Spiderfan001]

Oh, he absolutely showed us that Norman was a terrible human being. (Eww, I forgot how totally gross that scene with him and Spider-Gwen was.) Unfortunately the story ends with Norman being more or less excused of his being a terrible human being without having done anything at all to earn that.

Really some of this may boil down to a writing issue rather than a morality one: You can't just magic someone sins away. That makes NO SENSE! Not least because whatever impulse caused you to commit your sins in the first place would still be, presumably, in you?

You can, this isn't smth new.Even recently Sinister exorcised the racist part of his personality.Pretty sure we've gotten similar stuff w/ Sabertooth, Cassandra Nova, Mystique, etc.

I'm not a fan of this but you're acting like it's smth new whereas the magic/science/telepathy to make a bad person good is new and it's not

Outsider speculation then.

Even if Nick Spencer's run didn't end the way he wanted (and we don't know that), you would have no way of knowing which ideas were his and which weren't.

It's poor form to write venomous things about people (in this case, Nick Lowe) based on speculation.

Read the after-letter's

Beyond was Nick's idea(Wells has said so) and the way it ended w/ Nick's apology is the reason why people are hostile against him

Kinda hard for Gwen to have much agency when it's other characters talking about her, and she's dead, and they're talking about a made-up situation that didn't actually happen, so flashbacks showing her wouldn't do much.

I don't see how the previous explanation about Sins Past is any relevant to what Spencer did, because Sins Past's background didn't happen, so Gwen didn't get dicked by Norman.

The way Norman talks sounds like he wants to be a creep to Spider-Gwen and rile up Spidey once he showed reactions, which pisses off both of them and Gwen makes it clear she doesn't need Spidey to keep defending her.

So yeah, the biggest "problem" here is, Norman is a creepy douchebag who likes to be evil and piss off people? Give me a break, it's in-character for him to be like that.

All this

Also no way mf'ers are complaining about retconning Sins Past

Spidey fans somehow worse than the writers

[your_name_here]

Spencer.

It’s the first time I’ve been actively engaged and interested in Spidey since pre-OMD. He was moving Peter and his supporting cast forward, and Peter genuinely felt like he’d overcome something by the end of the run. It’s a shame it wasn’t OMD like the run so obviously was hinting towards. I think there’s two options 1.) Spencer jumped ship to Substack too quickly so wrapped things up quickly. 2.) Editorial flipped the story last minute.

I don’t suppose we will ever find out? Which is a shame, because I would have LOVED to have seen how Spencer would address Harry-Kindred and Mephisto and all of that.

[PCN24454]

“Forward”? “Progress”? What do these words even mean?

It gives the impression that no one actually cared about the plot so long as Peter was with MJ again.

[Kevinroc]

“Forward”? “Progress”? What do these words even mean?

It gives the impression that no one actually cared about the plot so long as Peter was with MJ again.

Romance is a major part of the Spider-Man story. And when the romance is badly written, it can negatively effect the story.

And the romance stories in Slott's run on Spider-Man were not good.

(Yet Slott wrote an actual decent romance in his Silver Surfer run.)

Spencer's romance arc in Spider-Man was far better than Slott's. And it's a big reason why so many people are voting for Spencer.

[PCN24454]

Romance is a major part of the Spider-Man story. And when the romance is badly written, it can negatively effect the story.

And the romance stories in Slott's run on Spider-Man were not good.

(Yet Slott wrote an actual decent romance in his Silver Surfer run.)

Spencer's romance arc in Spider-Man was far better than Slott's. And it's a big reason why so many people are voting for Spencer.

We had this argument before, and it didn’t go well.

Besides, it says a lot that Peter “great romance” with MJ featured her as little as possible.

[Kevinroc]

We had this argument before, and it didn’t go well.

Besides, it says a lot that Peter “great romance” with MJ featured her as little as possible.

Spencer still wrote Peter and MJ far better than Slott did.

Which really says how poorly Slott's take on MJ was, and how poorly the romance portion of Spider-Man was during his run.

It's not completely his fault since he inherited it after OMD, but ultimately it's still his name on the comic and he made the decision to pursue romances that have mostly been forgotten.

As for the importance of romance to Spider-Man, it is because Spider-Man is a deeply personal story.

[Matt Rat]

We had this argument before, and it didn’t go well.

Pretty sure the reason for that is you were out-numbered and out-argued.

[Agent Z]

Again I agree but how is the guy whose trying to fix stuff the problem? He didn't writer Sins Past, he didn't write Gwen OR Norman doing the deed.He just cleared Gwen's name from a OOC moment(it's literally smth editorial did, not even a writer's idea) while also stating that she wasn't the angel fans think she was.

And Norman literally got "fixed" by a magic thingmajig, there was no redemption and Spencer showed us that Norman was always a terrible human being.If you read Spencer's run and though Norman in as whole smelled like roses then that's on you



FR, literally SA's women half his age and everyone is dumb af for it to even remotely work

Not to mention Spencer fixed so much stuff as well

Unless this story was forced onto him by editorial, Spencer had the option of just ignoring Sins Past. Seriously, how many writers wanted to touch this story?