Yor Forger vs Lady Shiva

[Guy1]

[Jcogginsa]

I mean, again, I'd be fine with giving her Bullet-time status, but that's something that has been mod-ruled - twice - in the past (against my own arguments, to boot). And since Post-Crisis Shiva hasn't gotten any new feats (and never will)...that's not likely to change.

Never say never, especially when DC fucking with there own continuity is involved

[Guy1]

Never say never, especially when DC fucking with there own continuity is involved

Run, Barry, Run.

[Jcogginsa]

Yor does get a reaction feat against a sniper in the Cruise arc, but I had trouble parsing the art there, so I can't tell if it's aimdodging or not

I took a second look at this feat, I feel it's closer to bullet timing than aim dodging.

Yor's not the one the Sniper is targeting, he's targeting a woman standing behind Yor (And not especially closely behind). When he fires the Shot, Yor does the following

1. notices the shot over the sound of an exploding Firework
2. Turns and tackles the target out of the way, being slightly grazed by the bullet.

She may also be throwing one of his weapons at the sniper in the same motion, it's not clear.

[Alias]

Given Batman is PINNED, and Yor wouldn't be, I find it perfectly acceptable to say 'Yor will have an easier time landing hits anywhere on Shiva than Shiva will have hitting exact pressure points.' And before people bring up Shiva pinning Yor down, Yor is rather tremendously stronger than Bruce. I would find it rather hard to accept that Shiva is just going to pin her, given the massive gap in strength and Yor's own considerable skill.

I find it dubious that it would take Yor having, as you put it, SIGNIFICANTLY greater skill than Shiva to stop her from easily hitting pressure points. So what you're saying is that if Shiva and Yor were of equal skill and speed, or Yor was actually a little bit better skillwise, Shiva would have an easy time hitting Yor's pressure points before, for example, Yor kicks her wherever with three-to-four (or more) times Bruce's strength?

I have absolutely no idea who Yor is. My entire point was that, given the random and nonsensical nature of comic book pressure points, it should take considerably more than (broadly peer-ish) speed to properly defend against them.

I was relying entirely on the info you provided earlier. Obviously the entire issue becomes moot if Yor actually has real skill in the area.

[Sharpandpointies]

So having gone back through Spy x Family to figure out some feats, I'm pretty comfortable changing my assessment somewhat, including some examples of feats (including a couple of scans).

1. Strength: Yor is stronger than I thought, many times stronger than Shiva. She kicks a guy and they fire straight up and literally imbed themselves through the ceiling. She kicks another guy in an alley, and he bounces from wall to ground to wall to ground again over at least 30' or more (*checks* it's more, the guy is still in the air at this point). She kicks a speeding car and it spins away and crashes. She kicks a guy through the air to get him off a cruise ship - he's shown as flying probably 60-80 at least before he goes off the side of the ship (Yor is literally an ant-like figure in the distance). These are some of the big feats, but there are sundry other feats that hold this level of strength up. We're waaaaaay past comic book peak human here, way past Post Crisis Shiva's own hitting power. By a lot. Shiva can't afford to take a single hit here, or it's going to debilitate her (not put her away, but certainly mess her up). Shiva is going to have trouble BLOCKING hits from Yor without getting a busted arm.

One example.

Str 3.jpg

2. Durability/Damage Soak: Yor does, indeed, get hit by a speeding car, hard enough that it sends her flying then rolling dozens of feet along the ground. She then pops up and perfectly catches the young girl she threw away to protect from the car (literally, threw her one-handed that distance) and runs off to look for a hospital without pause or expression of pain.

Hospital for the GIRL, mind. Not herself.

For me, Yor's soak is way above Shiva's own. In the big fight with the assassins, it takes her getting worn down by dealing with extensive attacks over a period of time, followed by a moment of crippling self-doubt, and then a hit on her jaw that sends her flying about 30' before she slams into a wall (which would have sent her further, obviously, without the wall) to make her dazed.

Car 1a.jpg <-- This is literally nothing to her.

3. Speed. Yor commonly blitzes groups of normals in this, aim-dodges like a pro, catches weapons wielded by highly trained assassins out of the air, stabs through the links of swung chains, stands in the middle of a trio of highly-skilled killers and slaughters two of them while simultaneously blocking someone attacking from her blind-side, etc, etc. She even has one feat where she yanks someone out of the path of a bullet; however, it's not clear if it's actual bullet-timing. Basically I'm fine with her either being CBPH or so close it's not really that important. Again, this area would be the same as my last guess.

4. Skill. Yor hits pressure points on a cow, then notes she has studied pressure points on people and felt 'they might be the same for cows'. She plucks a button from someone's jacket and flicks it into an assassin's jaw, making them stumble around and collapse, dazed, into a chair (pressure point? Ridiculously powerful throwing ability? Both?). She casually monsters all over large groups of unrealistically skilled assassins. She easily outclasses her husband, who has shown himself to be ridiculously skilled and capable (and physically at the least approaching CBPH, if not that). I don't think she rates as high as Shiva, but I would again put this as an edge to Shiva, not a huge advantage; Yor is quite skilled herself. So this one is about the same as before.

For those wondering why she doesn't use those pressure points she supposedly learned, it possibly has something to do with the fact that she doesn't actually need them. She kills people, and tends to do that with stabby things or simply by hitting them so hard she breaks them (explicit in the art).

5. Special abilities. Post Crisis Shiva has the Body-Read, which is a huge advantage when combined with her greater speed. Yor, herself, has her needles, which means she's not just relying on the ridiculous hitting power she has. It also gives her some thrown stuff, but in fairness, I'm highly dubious of thrown stuff being of worth against Shiva (even if she does throw them like bullets, hard enough that they go through wooden doors before impaling people in the head, picking that person up, and carrying them four or five feet through the air to nail them into the wall...).

So, given what I've now seen of Yor's hitting power after a re-read and her durability, I feel the only path to winning for either Shiva is through pressure points. Post Crisis Shiva does NOT want to get into a fighting match with Yor - even if she gets three, four hits to one from Yor, Yor will eat those hits like a pro and the one she gives to Shiva will fold her in half. Shiva might be capable of fighting after that, but she's not going to be nearly at best possible ability, and the next hit will break her. However, Post Crisis Shiva carries an edge in speed, an edge in skill, and combat precog; I feel that a majority of the time she can manage to land pressure points on Yor that will stick, and take the win.

Current Shiva is, again, lacking in both a speed advantage and the body-read. Again, I don't feel that Current Shiva's one advantage (an edge in skill) is going to allow her to easily manage to hit pressure points against a highly skilled target that is attempting to tear her head off, especially given the vast disparity in strength and durability (she can't, for example, pop Yor in the nose and use that momentary stun or whatever to sneak in a pressure point because Yor is going to shrug off her hits). I really don't think Shiva will manage before Yor connects with her (even clipping her) or forces her to straight-up block a hit (which will not take Shiva good places). It's a whole lot easier for someone to 'just hit the other person' than 'hit tiny spots on a defending, moving enemy, accurately', and that's all Yor needs to do, here. Is it possible for Shiva to sneak in a pressure point before being caved in? Sure, but I'm still giving majority Yor.

Re-read has shown Yor to be quite a monster; I'm wondering if she'll get better speedfeats in the future.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Your also pressure pointed the first high end hitman she fought on the boat, either KOing or killing him instantly while making it look like he was taking a bow alongside her (because she was trying to make their public duel look like a circus act).

[Sharpandpointies]

Your also pressure pointed the first high end hitman she fought on the boat, either KOing or killing him instantly while making it look like he was taking a bow alongside her (because she was trying to make their public duel look like a circus act).

Thanks, DK.

*checks*

Yes, yes she does; hits three points on his body with her fingertips, explicitly with a 'tap tap tap' (Edit: too much information, suffice to say it's a 'tap tap tap'-ish sound even in the Japanese) rather than, you know, just punching holes in him with her fingers. He goes rigid, then slumps. Missed that on my run-through. And it actually supports the idea of 'Yor is perfectly capable of using comic book pressure point strikes...but doesn't bother because her entire schtick is killing people, not paralyzing them'.

So my feeling of the skill gap between Shiva and Yor just thinned a little more.

Appreciate the heads up on that. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

Spy X Family worth watching Sharp? I liked the art but anime is so hit or miss for me. Especially with how creepy it can get.

[Sharpandpointies]

Spy X Family worth watching Sharp? I liked the art but anime is so hit or miss for me. Especially with how creepy it can get.

I don't actually watch the Anime, so I cannot comment. I'm okay with the manga, so far. Yeah, lots of violence around a young kid, but the writers seem to have a pretty good grasp on the idea that 'violence is actually really horrible (as is war)', and the 'parents' DO try to keep the kid away from the violence as much as possible.

Edit: Also, the writers do seem to have an idea of what all of that violence does to the people who actually carry out the violence. Yor isn't exactly a balanced individual, and knows it. Her husband is also dealing with his own issues and discovering a conscience over his 'duty'. Yor's brother is an absolute mess.

Also Edit: I don't actually watch a lot of Anime, though I read a fair amount of manga these days. Just...not a lot of the manga everyone else seems to be reading. ^_^

[Sharpandpointies]

Yor doing something completely effortlessly, while chatting, and one-handed (notice the bell-ringer firing straight up like a bullet).

Str 8b.jpg

Yor actually putting her all into something (needs to get the guy and his explosives off the ship).

Str 7.jpg

I'm actually not sure which feat is more frightening.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Re-read has shown Yor to be quite a monster; I'm wondering if she'll get better speedfeats in the future.

Wondering that too. Yor's action scenes seem to be focused on crazy martial arts fights while Twilight gets most of the high octane gun fights and chase scenes, with a bit of overlap for both.

Also, as far as strength feats go I do feel the need to mention that she if she goes all out while playing tennis she will slice through the tennis ball with her racket's netting. She has to actively hold back to actually hit the ball back and even then it moves faster than sound (according to Nightfall). Actually, considering the whole tennis bit, Twilight and Nightfall did have that match where they're dodging shots from multiple snipers (and a lot of other nonsense) while playing a tennis match against pro-level players using rocket-powered rackets, and they still match to win. Not Yor's feats, but she's generally their better in physical stats so it's something to consider.

[Sharpandpointies]

Wondering that too. Yor's action scenes seem to be focused on crazy martial arts fights while Twilight gets most of the high octane gun fights and chase scenes, with a bit of overlap for both.

Also, as far as strength feats go I do feel the need to mention that she if she goes all out while playing tennis she will slice through the tennis ball with her racket's netting. She has to actively hold back to actually hit the ball back and even then it moves faster than sound (according to Nightfall). Actually, considering the whole tennis bit, Twilight and Nightfall did have that match where they're dodging shots from multiple snipers (and a lot of other nonsense) while playing a tennis match against pro-level players using rocket-powered rackets, and they still match to win. Not Yor's feats, but she's generally their better in physical stats so it's something to consider.

Yeah, the tennis ball was one of the ridiculous feats that Kid mentioned in the other Yor thread. I was approaching limits, and didn't want to just fill the post with feats.

But hey, why not?

Str 5a.jpg

Str 5b.jpg

Edit: oh gawd, it's worse - I didn't consider the part on the next page where Yor thinks 'When I swing too hard the strings always cut through the ball...I really am awful at tennis. I'm so sorry, Mr. Ball.' Emphasis mine, to point out that this isn't a one-off, this is something that happens every single time if she doesn't pay attention and hold back. I see you caught that, yourself.

The tennis match thing where they're blind-aim-dodging the snipers is kind of what I meant when I said Twilight, Yor's husband, is highly skilled and approaching if not CBPH, and Yor - by feats and by word of the author - utterly eclipses him physically. But details are important.

The other woman in the above scans is Nightfall, for those who don't know, who is the other person Dark Soul mentions who is blind-aim-dodging multiple snipers while playing tennis against people using rocket-powered rackets (it's as insane as it sounds). Yor manages to hit the ball at her (without killing the ball), it exceeds the speed of sound, and blows apart Nightfall's racket. When Yor is holding back.

[Sharpandpointies]

Interestingly, Nightfall reacts to the 'faster than sound' tennis ball. And Nightfall is rather less-potent than Yor, physically.

Hmm...not really enough, mind, but food for thought.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I also like how realistically Anya's portrayal as a 4-6 yay old (she claims that she's 6, but that was after reading Twilight's mind to learn that he needs a 6 year old and thought that she liked like she was 4).

Like, while she trying to save people from terrorists she has to deal with the fact that she's easily distracted, wants to act like a spy because it's fun, and doesn't know how to read clocks yet. Or how her rearrest desire to help Twilight's mission for world peace is often detailed by her below average education and how often she is distracted by random interesting things.