If You Could Kill Off/Retire *ONE* Green Lantern Who Would You Choose?

[Captain Nostalgia]

Legacy characters are part of what the DCU so rich. Where would the DCU be now without Wolfman/Perez's New Teen Titans, Waid's Flash, Robinson's Starman, Peter David's Young Justice, Robinson/Goyer/Johns JSA, Marz's GL run with Kyle Rayner, or the multi generations of Robins (Dick, Jason, Tim) or Batgirls (Babs, Cass Steph) who all have their own fan bases. Even Hal, Barry and Ray are all legacy characters and even the very concept of 'Justice League' owes itself to 'Justice Society'.

Don't let DC's mismanagement of characters and in some cases spiteful treatment of certain characters convince you that legacies are inherently bad. Legacy has been the thing that has kept the DCU going for as long as it has.



Ross at least kept his favoritism limited to AU's where he had full control and his nostalgia didn't wreck the DCU.

Wolfman's Titans are not legacy heroes because Cyborg, Raven & Starfire are original characters. Robinson's Starman was successful for the same reason Mr. Terrific is successful, the original hero didn't have a strong enough fanbase for people to care.

Since the death of Barry Allen, DC has designed legacy heroes for the sole purpose of replacing an established hero, but overall it has not been a financially successful endeavor, because it usually results in a fan backlash and plummeting sales.

(Yes Wally West was a success story, but he had already been around for 30 years, so fans accepted him, but they brought Barry back and now you have a partitioned fanbase)

I've flat out quit comics twice, and both times it was because they offed or shoved aside my favourite heroes to replace them with a new legacy hero, to which I gave DC the big middle finger to and stopped buying, I came back, but I've met countless of other fans who have not. They quite reading DC and are never coming back.

[WebLurker]

In my opinion, legacy characters have been the primary driver of toxicity in the DC fanbase, because since the death of Barry Allen, DC has primarily brought them in solely with the intention of replacing an established hero either in their title or on the JLA.

But as you say, they’ve rarely been successful because it causes a revolt in the fanbase. I would say Wally West & maybe Jamie Reyes are the exceptions.
(Mr. Terrific doesn’t count because no one really cared about the original)

I was there in the 90’s when the first wave of legacy heroes came to the forefront, and man....it was toxic.

If they put the same amount of effort into creating and really promoting original heroes who develop their own fanbase, I don't think we'd have any toxcity, because no one would feel threatened that their hero is going to be replaced, or have to share the spotlight with a newer version.

Dunno how telling some people their favorite characters shouldn't exist is going to make things any better.

I've flat out quit comics twice, and both times it was because they offed or shoved aside my favourite heroes to replace them with a new legacy hero, to which I gave DC the big middle finger to and stopped buying, I came back, but I've met countless of other fans who have not. They quite reading DC and are never coming back.

And I've quit reading certain franchises when the legacy character I liked got their series canceled or were replaced by the original again, or whatever. For some of us, restoring the original does the same thing to us as removing the original did for you at the beginning.

[John Venus]

I imagine if Cyborg, Starfire and Raven were introduced today this board would be complaining about these OC's getting spotlight over Roy, Garth or some other Titan.

Hal may have been mistreated in the 90's but we are almost two decades removed from the 90's. He's been brought back, turned headliner again, the lead of franchise defining events like Rebirth, Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night and First Lantern, he's been the default GL, got his own animated movie, cartoon and live action (even though that was terrible). Whatever indignity he suffered has long since been rectified. What's happening now is that other Lanterns are getting time to shine which doesn't equate to Hal being sidelined or erased again. He's still around in the comics and is a member of the JL. A rotating GL cast is the only one GL title available until the franchise can reach a point where they can sustain multiple titles again.

Same goes for Barry, he may have been killed off in the 80's but he stuck around as a symbolic figure in the comics. But he's been brought back, made headliner again, the default Flash in DTV movies, gives his own animated movies and long running live action show. Although unlike Hal, I can't imaging any long time Barry fans being happy with what's been done to him since Flash: Rebirth in order to make him the lead again.

[Captain Nostalgia]

Dunno how telling some people their favorite characters shouldn't exist is going to make things any better.

I did not say that. Once a legacy character has been created they are here to stay in my books.

As someone who has gone through the pain of having my favourite characters killed off, or relegated to obscurity, I would never advocate offing a legacy character. It's not their fault DC created a character they fell in love with.

I question the continued practice of creating legacy heroes, that ends up dividing and injecting toxicity into the fanbase, because someone's hero is going to get sidelined in a world of shrinking titles.

And I've quit reading certain franchises when the legacy character I liked got their series canceled or were replaced by the original again, or whatever. For some of us, restoring the original does the same thing to us as removing the original did for you at the beginning.

Absolutely it does. That’s why the creation of legacy heroes is a bad idea, because the original comes back and legacy heroes get shafted, or the original gets replaced, and their fans get shafted.

If DC put the same time and effort into creating original heroes, instead of trying to replace an established hero with a legacy hero which more often or not fails, we wouldn’t have this problem.

In short there wouldn’t be any arguing, animosity or toxicity in the DC fanbase that exists today, because no one would feel threatened that their favourite hero is going to be sidelined.

I imagine if Cyborg, Starfire and Raven were introduced today this board would be complaining about these OC's getting spotlight over Roy, Garth or some other Titan.

Not at all, because some of those original Titans (Dick, Donna, Wally & later Roy) were on the team as well.

A legacy hero that is an original hero doesn’t become a problem, they become a profit.

Dick Grayson sells far better as Nightwing than he would as another Batman waiting in the wings for Bruce Wayne’s popularity to peter out, and if he replaced Bruce you can bet toxicity would reign.

Same goes for Barry, he may have been killed off in the 80's but he stuck around as a symbolic figure in the comics. But he's been brought back, made headliner again, the default Flash in DTV movies, gives his own animated movies and long running live action show. Although unlike Hal, I can't imaging any long time Barry fans being happy with what's been done to him since Flash: Rebirth in order to make him the lead again.

The Flash fanbase is completely partitioned now, bringing Barry back was a bad idea, but even I confess I enjoy reading him more than Wally now thanks to Williamson.

Wally West fans have gone through hell, first because they replaced him with Barry, than they tried to completely erase him with Wallace. Rectified or not, I know fans of Wally West who quit DC comics, and they’re not coming back....it’s too late at this point.

Same goes with fans of Firestorm, Dr. Fate, Question, Beetle, Atom, Green Arrow, and now Aquaman fans are getting miffed, or flip it around, do you think Kyle Rayner fans are happy these days. The list goes on and on.

[krazijoe]

do you think the Kyle Rayner fan is happy these days. The list goes on and on.

I fixed that for you

[skyvolt2000]

If DC put the same time and effort into creating original heroes, instead of trying to replace an established hero with a legacy hero which more often or not fails, we wouldn’t have this problem.

When DC (and Marvel) tries this we see the same if not GREATER toxic nonsense with original heroes. Especially those of color. And even those long time original heroes that get a shot.

Why because some set of entitled fans think trying ANYTHING with characters that they do NOT approve is an attack on who they like.

New Age Heroes, Duke Thomas and so many more.

SOMEBODY had issues with these books or those characters existing.

Because it's BENEATH Batman to have Duke Thomas.

There are folks still boycotting all Bat books over Duke. Including long time readers and Duke hasn't been in that main Batman book in almost 5 years.

How much bashing of Squirrel Girl did we see? She went 50 issues. About why she got a book and others didn't.

And the folks who did the most crying were the main ones who did NOT bother to TRY (at least issue 1) of Cyborg, Jean Grey, Storm, Katanna and so many others that some deemed more deserving of a book.

[Johnny]

When DC (and Marvel) tries this we see the same if not GREATER toxic nonsense with original heroes. Especially those of color. And even those long time original heroes that get a shot.

Why because some set of entitled fans think trying ANYTHING with characters that they do NOT approve is an attack on who they like.

New Age Heroes, Duke Thomas and so many more.

SOMEBODY had issues with these books or those characters existing.

Because it's BENEATH Batman to have Duke Thomas.

There are folks still boycotting all Bat books over Duke. Including long time readers and Duke hasn't been in that main Batman book in almost 5 years.

How much bashing of Squirrel Girl did we see? She went 50 issues. About why she got a book and others didn't.

And the folks who did the most crying were the main ones who did NOT bother to TRY (at least issue 1) of Cyborg, Jean Grey, Storm, Katanna and so many others that some deemed more deserving of a book.

Would you stop trying to inject racism into every single fan debate. Who "boycotts all Batman books over Duke"? Why the constant need to blame the fans for not eating up everything DC throws at them. Could it be that some of those books simply weren't good enough and couldn't find an audience. Fans have no obligation to prove to DC they're somehow "worthy" of the material they're putting out, it's up to DC to sell them on it. I'm really supposed to believe the reason they keep going for the low-hanging fruit of kicking an established character to the curb and hijacking their mantle instead of putting some actual effort into original creations is because of "toxic fanboys"??

How is it that when it comes to DC mistreating characters you happen to like it's always because of "toxic nostalgia", yet when other fans complain about mistreatment of characters you happen to dislike, you turn around and act like this is all the fans' fault who supposedly have some alleged ulterior motives for not wanting DC to give their favorites the boot. This song is really starting to get old now.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I fixed that for you

Ouch! lol

I do like Kyle....but that's a good one, cheers.

[Refrax5]

I imagine if Cyborg, Starfire and Raven were introduced today this board would be complaining about these OC's getting spotlight over Roy, Garth or some other Titan.

Hal may have been mistreated in the 90's but we are almost two decades removed from the 90's. He's been brought back, turned headliner again, the lead of franchise defining events like Rebirth, Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night and First Lantern, he's been the default GL, got his own animated movie, cartoon and live action (even though that was terrible). Whatever indignity he suffered has long since been rectified. What's happening now is that other Lanterns are getting time to shine which doesn't equate to Hal being sidelined or erased again. He's still around in the comics and is a member of the JL. A rotating GL cast is the only one GL title available until the franchise can reach a point where they can sustain multiple titles again.

Same goes for Barry, he may have been killed off in the 80's but he stuck around as a symbolic figure in the comics. But he's been brought back, made headliner again, the default Flash in DTV movies, gives his own animated movies and long running live action show. Although unlike Hal, I can't imaging any long time Barry fans being happy with what's been done to him since Flash: Rebirth in order to make him the lead again.

I don't think anything particularly egregious has been done to Barry since his return, simply that most of the runs he's had since his return have been lackluster. He shined in Blackest Night and the Williamson run was ok, but they really need a big creator that loves the character and has a clear vision for him. But getting all this Barry content in recent years has been very nice. So it wasn't as triumphant a comeback as Hal's, but it wasn't a disaster either in my book.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Geoffrey Thorne has put out a few tweets about hating Hal Jordan, so I'm pretty sure hardcore Hal fans would prefer that he just doesn't use him.

Well, if those hypothetical fans choose to die on this hill before seeing how Thorne deals with the character, then the need to review their outlook. Writing these characters is, after all, a job. Thorne actually treated Jordan with more respect than some of the creators who called themselves fans. I hate the character way more than he does, and would do the same.

Now, sure, maybe some people have legitimate concerns about creator bias because, well, we just got out of Didio era, and it was a long one. But those years are over.

Since the death of Barry Allen, DC has designed legacy heroes for the sole purpose of replacing an established hero, but overall it has not been a financially successful endeavor, because it usually results in a fan backlash and plummeting sales.

Yeah, not quite. The one high profile legacy character for almost ten years after COIE was Wally. And DC only started trying to replicate that formula once Waid's Flash started getting some serious positive buzz - that's when we get Kyle Rayner and Connor Hawke, the only 2 ones that were actually commissioned to replace their predecessors after those were killed off or something else. Other than that, most legacy characters were created in order to preserve the IP for a character not longer being used. Cass Cain showed up when Babs hadn't been Batgirl for ages (she had already retired pre-Crisis), so did Ray, Jack Knight, the JSA legacies and so on. All this stuff was, for the most part, a lot more organic than most people's memories give credit for back then.

If they put the same amount of effort into creating and really promoting original heroes who develop their own fanbase, I don't think we'd have any toxcity, because no one would feel threatened that their hero is going to be replaced, or have to share the spotlight with a newer version.

Yeah, but the last original character with actual commercial potential 2 was Static, and he is already pushing 20 years. Before that? I´d say Wolverine, and he is 48 years old. DC and Marvel are looking for that sweet Miles Morales money right now: existing IP, resonating with people it hasn't before. So there's that.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Haven't seen that much of it, to be honest. Most complaints I've seen have been along the lines of "equal time for non-Hal Lanterns," not "Hal is the root of all franchise problems and must be erased forever for the good of the franchise," if that makes any sense.

Hey, look, I'm not a Hal Jordan fan, quite the contrary. I also don't agree with their complaints, and some of their suggestions sometimes make me throw up a little in my mouth.

However, in all my years in these boards and the internet at large, never have I had a Hal Jordan fan coming out of a bush when discussing Flash, Superman or any other character yelling about how "the real problem is those pesky John Stewart fans!!!! ". Yet, it gets done to them all the time.

[krazijoe]

Ouch! lol

I do like Kyle....but that's a good one, cheers.

I have never been a fan. Even when he started out I wasn't a fan, though I collected him. I guess I am less a Fan of Judd and by association, not a fan of Kyle.

[skyvolt2000]

However, in all my years in these boards and the internet at large, never have I had a Hal Jordan fan coming out of a bush when discussing Flash, Superman or any other character yelling about how "the real problem is those pesky John Stewart fans!!!! ". Yet, it gets done to them all the time.

I think the issue is you have sets of Hal fans that make all of them look bad. Where being a fan of the others (mainly John Stewart) is not welcomed in some Green Lantern areas.
Or we see double standards.

Hal Jordan & TGLC-the ARTIST stated that was a Hal centric book. Stewart fans for the most part said "fine-we will look for other stuff to read".
Then when sales for that book were not as high as some expected-guess who got called fake fans and only caring about the franchise when their guy is on top? Wasn't Guy, Kyle, Simon nor Jessica-the latter two TOOK Hal's spot in JL and the main GL book. It was John Stewart fans.

Now here we are with the roles reverse-Thorne gets death threats and a demand to be fired. Thorne had to point out the sales on his book were on par with Morrison's run.
As you pointed out Hal got better treatment by Thorne then by so-called Hal supporters.

John fans did the ONE thing ALL FANS need to do-if you don't like it-don't BUY IT. We got too much hate buying of books and then we have the GALL to cry about our favorites being trashed in books.

Hate buying only encourages Heroes in Crisis 2.0 and other mess.

[Johnny]

People pointing fingers and generalizing fans of a character they conveniently happen to dislike has always been a useless and rather obnoxious tactic.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I have never been a fan. Even when he started out I wasn't a fan, though I collected him. I guess I am less a Fan of Judd and by association, not a fan of Kyle.

Judd Winick, the guy who drove Green Arrow sales into the ground. That says it all right there.

Yeah, not quite. The one high profile legacy character for almost ten years after COIE was Wally. And DC only started trying to replicate that formula once Waid's Flash started getting some serious positive buzz - that's when we get Kyle Rayner and Connor Hawke, the only 2 ones that were actually commissioned to replace their predecessors after those were killed off or something else. Other than that, most legacy characters were created in order to preserve the IP for a character not longer being used. Cass Cain showed up when Babs hadn't been Batgirl for ages (she had already retired pre-Crisis), so did Ray, Jack Knight, the JSA legacies and so on. All this stuff was, for the most part, a lot more organic than most people's memories give credit for back then.

I take it you haven't been collecting comic books for very long?

Hal Jordan became a mass murderer... so he could be replaced.
Oliver Queen was blown up in a helicopter...so he could be replaced.
Ronnie Raymond was imapaled & killed......so he could be replaced.
Ray Palmer vanished into the subatomic world....so he could be replaced.
Ted Kord had his brains blown out .......so he could be replaced.
Vic Sage died of cancer .........so he could be replaced.

They stopped killing characters outright, and are now trying to slowly bring in a legacy character because they know there will be a fan backlash, but the intent is the same.

There was no IP to protect with someone like Starman or Mr. Terrrific , are you kidding me, those characters didn’t have a fanbase.
Cassandra was brought in because we all accepted Barbara as Oracle...but guess what, they brought her back??? Another problem in itself.

Whether it’s Aquaman, Dr. Fate, Hawkgirl, Mr. Miracle, or 5G, fans get their backs up when a duplicate heroes are created because we know DC’s intention. (All you have to do is read former excutive Dan Didio’s plans before he was sacked)

We’ve been fighting this....for a very long time.