Aunt May needs to know Peter’s identity again

[Lee]

There's some irony in you arguing this while assuming that everyone who wants Peter to tell May he is Spider-Man wants him to have a life free of conflict or drama.

I never said everyone and I never said anyone wants Peter's life to be 100% free of conflict or drama. What I said was that many people on forums like this frequently request for Peter to be happier, more comfortable and more successful. Not 100% conflict free, but less conflict overall.

This thread's original poster said they want "Peter and Aunt May to have a stronger bond and trust of each other". The OP wants a nice thing for Peter and May, for them to have a happier, healthier and stronger relationship. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

It's good that some readers want this, because it shows that they're invested. But actually giving those readers what they want isn't always a good idea for dramatic stories and character dynamics, especially in a series designed to run forever. It's the old writer's adage about not giving readers what they want, but what they need.

[TinkerSpider]

I never said everyone and I never said anyone wants Peter's life to be 100% free of conflict or drama. What I said was that many people on forums like this frequently request for Peter to be happier, more comfortable and more successful. Not 100% conflict free, but less conflict overall.

This thread's original poster said they want "Peter and Aunt May to have a stronger bond and trust of each other". The OP wants a nice thing for Peter and May, for them to have a happier, healthier and stronger relationship. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

It's good that some readers want this, because it shows that they're invested. But actually giving those readers what they want isn't always a good idea for dramatic stories and character dynamics, especially in a series designed to run forever. It's the old writer's adage about not giving readers what they want, but what they need.

“Give the readers what they need’ is assuming readers can’t identify what makes for a satisfying story and only writers have that knowledge (news flash: many don’t). But people today are very sophisticated consumers of story. We have so many excellent examples of storytelling we’ve ingested and internalized, from Pixar to today’s Golden Age of cable/streaming TV series to the MCU and the list goes on.

You know what readers actually need?

Engaging, involving and satisfying stories.

Flat stories with flat characters who do not learn, grow and change - even in small ways - are not satisfying.

Also, how do you know that’s what the OP wants? Maybe the OP is nostalgic for the JMS era, which had more than its share of strong stories WITH May knowing. Maybe the OP doesn’t have a supportive parental figure and would like to see one modeled. Maybe the OP thinks Peter “coming out” to a parental figure who loves him anyway despite his secret would give hope to others. Maybe the OP thinks it breaks the suspension of disbelief that the otherwise intelligent and perceptive May remains willfully in the dark. Maybe the OP would be happy with a May that doesn’t know if it served a story purpose other than “that’s just the way it is” but otherwise thinks having May in the dark closes off story possibilities instead of opening up new ones.

Only the OP knows, of course. But unless we’re Charles Xavier’s sock puppets, we don’t know.

[PCN24454]

“Give the readers what they need’ is assuming readers can’t identify what makes for a satisfying story and only writers have that knowledge (news flash: many don’t). But people today are very sophisticated consumers of story. We have so many excellent examples of storytelling we’ve ingested and internalized, from Pixar to today’s Golden Age of cable/streaming TV series to the MCU and the list goes on.

You know what readers actually need?

Engaging, involving and satisfying stories.

Flat stories with flat characters who do not learn, grow and change - even in small ways - are not satisfying.

Also, how do you know that’s what the OP wants? Maybe the OP is nostalgic for the JMS era, which had more than its share of strong stories WITH May knowing. Maybe the OP doesn’t have a supportive parental figure and would like to see one modeled. Maybe the OP thinks Peter “coming out” to a parental figure who loves him anyway despite his secret would give hope to others. Maybe the OP thinks it breaks the suspension of disbelief that the otherwise intelligent and perceptive May remains willfully in the dark. Maybe the OP would be happy with a May that doesn’t know if it served a story purpose other than “that’s just the way it is” but otherwise thinks having May in the dark closes off story possibilities instead of opening up new ones.

Only the OP knows, of course. But unless we’re Charles Xavier’s sock puppets, we don’t know.

I’m not convinced that readers do know what they want since most of the “interesting” stories showcase the characters dying effectively ending their stories. It gives the feeling that people don’t so much care about the characters as much as that Peter cries about them which is the exact opposite of having a dynamic world.

For all people talk about how great the characters were in JMS’ era, I don’t hear a lot about the stories themselves. They probably don’t matter to people as much as Peter being together with MJ.

[Matt Rat]

For all people talk about how great the characters were in JMS’ era, I don’t hear a lot about the stories themselves.

There's a good chunk of Dan Slott's stories in his run nobody really talks about either, just how annoying the characters were.

[PCN24454]

There's a good chunk of Dan Slott's stories in his run nobody really talks about either, just how annoying the characters were.

Not just Slott’s run. People just don’t talk about stories when it comes Spider-Man. Just characterization. It honestly feels weird.

[Lee]

I’m not convinced that readers do know what they want since most of the “interesting” stories showcase the characters dying effectively ending their stories. It gives the feeling that people don’t so much care about the characters as much as that Peter cries about them which is the exact opposite of having a dynamic world.

It's alarming how many "best of" lists when it comes to Spider-Man are "The Death of ____". Just the same old milestones and "important" stories.

For all people talk about how great the characters were in JMS’ era, I don’t hear a lot about the stories themselves. They probably don’t matter to people as much as Peter being together with MJ.

The civilian cast all but disappeared during that run, it was mainly just May and MJ being Very Supportive.

[TinkerSpider]

Not just Slott’s run. People just don’t talk about stories when it comes Spider-Man. Just characterization. It honestly feels weird.

Funny how people talk about characters in a comic book that is centered on a character? It’s not called Amazing Manhattan or Spectacular Superhero Fights. It would be weird if people didn’t talk about the characters.

Also, characterization is a key part of story. Perhaps you mean people don’t talk about plot. But they do - I’ve seen many conversations about, just for a recent example, Kindred and how it started out as an intriguing mystery but went off the rails towards the end.

And of course people talk about JMS’s issues! Sins Past, anyone? Back in Black? The Other? Doomed Affairs? The Conversation? Happy Birthday? With the exception of Sins Past, they’re very highly regarded.

It's alarming how many "best of" lists when it comes to Spider-Man are "The Death of ____". Just the same old milestones and "important" stories.

A) not true. Best of lists regularly contain stories like “Nothing Stops the Juggernaut,” “The Commuter Cometh,” “If This Be My Destiny,” “The Hobgoblin Saga,” “Spider-Man No More,” etc. And depending on whose list, they include the birth of Venom, The Child Within, Doomed Affairs, The Conversation, Spider Island, etc.

B) no one who has read the stories would ever suggest “The Death of Jean of DeWolff” is the same old as “Kraven’s Last Hunt” is the same old as “The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man” is the same old as “The Death of Gwen Stacy” even though the stories all deal with the theme of death (which is A theme, but not the THE overarching theme of Spider-man )

The civilian cast all but disappeared during that run, it was mainly just May and MJ being Very Supportive.

And yet, the stories were strong and well received. With a far greater ratio of hits to misses than most of the BND/Slott output. The title did not suffer with having supportive people in Peter’s life - quite the contrary. The book was revitalized after the execrable Mackie/Byrne era.

Also, for many Bendis’s Ultimate Peter is just as classic a rendition of the character as 616 Peter - and that Peter had a supportive MJ and May as well. No one ever said they were drawbacks to Peter or his story - on the contrary, they were often called out as highlights.

[Lee]

And of course people talk about JMS’s issues! Sins Past, anyone? Back in Black? The Other? Doomed Affairs? The Conversation? Happy Birthday? With the exception of Sins Past, they’re very highly regarded.

I don't think The Other is very highly regarded. I remember it reviewing poorly when it came out, and it's not really considered a highlight in retrospectives of that run.

A) not true.

What's not true? I didn't say EVERY story on every "Best Of" list was a "Death Of". But it's a lot. Every "Best Spider-Man stories" list I've seen has had multiple Death Of stories.

And yet, the stories were strong and well received. With a far greater ratio of hits to misses than most of the BND/Slott output. The title did not suffer with having supportive people in Peter’s life - quite the contrary. The book was revitalized after the execrable Mackie/Byrne era.

Also, for many Bendis’s Ultimate Peter is just as classic a rendition of the character as 616 Peter - and that Peter had a supportive MJ and May as well. No one ever said they were drawbacks to Peter or his story - on the contrary, they were often called out as highlights.

You're allowed to like it. I prefer when Spider-Man has a supporting cast and when there's friction.

[TinkerSpider]

I don't think The Other is very highly regarded. I remember it reviewing poorly when it came out, and it's not really considered a highlight in retrospectives of that run.

Thank you for agreeing by inference that all the others are indeed highly regarded. Certainly a much higher ratio of hits to misses than the BND/Slott era.

What's not true? I didn't say EVERY story on every "Best Of" list was a "Death Of". But it's a lot. Every "Best Spider-Man stories" list I've seen has had multiple Death Of stories.

And multiple other types of stories, making it a falsehood by omission. Also, again, “Death of Jean DeWolff” is a very different story than “Death of Gwen Stacy” which is very different story than “The Gift.” Just because they each use death as a theme does mean it is the “same old” as you stated. If stories were forbidden from using themes that appeared in earlier stories, then there would be no Superior Spider-Man because Kraven’s Last Hunt already did the “do the clothes (or costume, in this case) make the man” theme.

Although in Superior’s case, that might not have been a bad rule

You're allowed to like it. I prefer when Spider-Man has a supporting cast and when there's friction.

Sure. You’re allowed your preferences. Of course you are. Read long and prosper.

But you have been consistent that others want Aunt May and Peter to have a strong, honest relationship only because they want nice things for Peter but don’t understand the requirements of the story.

As the JMS era and Ultimate Spider-Man show, having Aunt May (and MJ) know his identity can lead to very strong, very well received stories. It can open new story possibilities instead of closing them off and forcing writers to repeat the same old tired beats.

(In before “But Bendis killed Ultimate Peter!!!1!!” - Ultimate Peter was killed so Bendis could introduce Miles Morales, as his children lacked representation in comics and he was in a position to do something about it. It had nothing to with a lack of story possibilities for Peter.)

[Lee]

Thank you for agreeing by inference that all the others are indeed highly regarded. Certainly a much higher ratio of hits to misses than the BND/Slott era.

And multiple other types of stories, making it a falsehood by omission.

In before “But Bendis killed Ultimate Peter!!!1!!”

I'm not here for this combative attitude. They're just super-hero stories.

[TinkerSpider]

I'm not here for this combative attitude. They're just super-hero stories.

I'm honestly not trying to be combative. Apologies for coming across that way.

However, IMO saying fans don't understand how comic book storytelling works and the only reason why they want Aunt May to know is because they only Peter's life to be easy and drama-free is a stance that going to get pushback in the first place. Especially when there are strong stories in which May does know and conflict is still present. *shrug*

[Lee]

I'm honestly not trying to be combative. Apologies for coming across that way.

However, IMO saying fans don't understand how comic book storytelling works and the only reason why they want Aunt May to know is because they only Peter's life to be easy and drama-free is a stance that going to get pushback in the first place. Especially when there are strong stories in which May does know and conflict is still present. *shrug*

I'm not speaking in black and white absolutes, as I explained in a previous post.

In the broad strokes, from what I've observed online, fans who want (non-villain) characters to know Peter's secret ID, for Peter to get a stable job, be in a stable relationship, get more respect from other super-heroes and so on, really do want Peter to be happier and have his life in order. They've seen him struggle and they want him to get his reward. It's not strange that long-term readers would want this, but it is at odds with Marvel's storytelling and business model and their goals for the Spider-Man brand.

[TinkerSpider]

I'm not speaking in black and white absolutes, as I explained in a previous post.

In the broad strokes, from what I've observed online, fans who want (non-villain) characters to know Peter's secret ID, for Peter to get a stable job, be in a stable relationship, get more respect from other super-heroes and so on, really do want Peter to be happier and have his life in order. They've seen him struggle and they want him to get his reward. It's not strange that long-term readers would want this, but it is at odds with Marvel's storytelling and business model and their goals for the Spider-Man brand.

In broad strokes, there have been many successful stories in which Aunt May knows Peter's secret identity so it is not a prerequisite for conflict to be present. It's not strange for long-term readers to recall those stories and prefer the character dynamics to today's retread of the same old tired beats.

And in broad strokes, unless you are Charles Xavier or another telepath using a sockpuppet, mindreading fans and ascribing motivations to them is...not really fair play. It's projection.

And in broad strokes, Marvel is owned by Disney and Disney's business model is to make money by monetizing their content, whatever form that may take. Considering the first MCU Spider-Man trilogy was not centered on "oh noes my loved ones cannot know my secret identity" and in fact showed Aunt May and MJ learning on their own while Peter told Ned, and considering the emotional arc for the next MCU Spider-Man films will probably be MJ and perhaps Ned re-learning Spider-Man's identity, Disney apparently has no problems with stories in which the people closest to Peter know his ID. The films had plenty of conflict outside of Peter trying to hide from Aunt May and in fact did away with that at the end of the first film.

(In fact, all the Spider-Man films featured Peter's love interests learning his ID - and still conflict ensued.)

(And in fact, MCU heroes - the version of the characters most familiar to a wide audience - are not that concerned with keeping secrets, with Tony Stark revealing his identity at the end of the first Iron Man film. T'Challa revealed the existence of Wakanda. Natasha testified to the Senate. Scott Lang's ID was known. Steve Rogers's ID was known. Rhodey's ID is known. Doctor Strange revealed all to Christine. Thor never did assume the Donald Blake identity. Carol told Maria and Monica. Sam's identity is known. The only story that hinged on keeping an identity hidden was the series Hawkeye, and that wasn't about keeping the world from learning Clint Barton was Hawkeye - it was about keeping the world from learning Hawkeye was the not-so-nice Ronin, while also protecting Laura's secret because she was no longer in the game. Today's audience, who probably had their first experience with Marvel be a film/TV series and not a comic book, is not expecting secret identities as a key story element).

When you say Marvel, I believe you really mean certain editors. They're not going to be sitting in the chairs forever. No one knows what the future will bring, especially as media continues to evolve and the ways people consume stories evolves with it.

Anyway, this conversation has now gone around at least two entire revolutions so I'm stepping off the merry go round. Feel free to have the last word.

[RJT]

In broad strokes, there have been many successful stories in which Aunt May knows Peter's secret identity so it is not a prerequisite for conflict to be present. It's not strange for long-term readers to recall those stories and prefer the character dynamics to today's retread of the same old tired beats.

And in broad strokes, unless you are Charles Xavier or another telepath using a sockpuppet, mindreading fans and ascribing motivations to them is...not really fair play. It's projection.

And in broad strokes, Marvel is owned by Disney and Disney's business model is to make money by monetizing their content, whatever form that may take. Considering the first MCU Spider-Man trilogy was not centered on "oh noes my loved ones cannot know my secret identity" and in fact showed Aunt May and MJ learning on their own while Peter told Ned, and considering the emotional arc for the next MCU Spider-Man films will probably be MJ and perhaps Ned re-learning Spider-Man's identity, Disney apparently has no problems with stories in which the people closest to Peter know his ID. The films had plenty of conflict outside of Peter trying to hide from Aunt May and in fact did away with that at the end of the first film.

(In fact, all the Spider-Man films featured Peter's love interests learning his ID - and still conflict ensued.)

(And in fact, MCU heroes - the version of the characters most familiar to a wide audience - are not that concerned with keeping secrets, with Tony Stark revealing his identity at the end of the first Iron Man film. T'Challa revealed the existence of Wakanda. Natasha testified to the Senate. Scott Lang's ID was known. Steve Rogers's ID was known. Rhodey's ID is known. Doctor Strange revealed all to Christine. Thor never did assume the Donald Blake identity. Carol told Maria and Monica. Sam's identity is known. The only story that hinged on keeping an identity hidden was the series Hawkeye, and that wasn't about keeping the world from learning Clint Barton was Hawkeye - it was about keeping the world from learning Hawkeye was the not-so-nice Ronin, while also protecting Laura's secret because she was no longer in the game. Today's audience, who probably had their first experience with Marvel be a film/TV series and not a comic book, is not expecting secret identities as a key story element).

When you say Marvel, I believe you really mean certain editors. They're not going to be sitting in the chairs forever. No one knows what the future will bring, especially as media continues to evolve and the ways people consume stories evolves with it.

Anyway, this conversation has now gone around at least two entire revolutions so I'm stepping off the merry go round. Feel free to have the last word.

A key difference between the MCU and the comics that is being overlooked here is that the Spider-Man movies have been rebooted twice already. Tom Holland is under contract for a certain number of films, he will eventually age out of the role, whatever. Eventually there will be a fourth cinematic Spider-Man and no one will ask why his Aunt May is older and doesn't know his identity anymore.
Marvel has staunchly resisted doing a full scale continuity reboot of their comics universe. Letting May know Peter's identity in the comics may be well and good (I'm partial to the reveal in Amazing 400, where she admits she's known for a while) but when Marvel needed to undo her knowing they had to go to extreme lengths to make that happen: Norman Osborn hired an actress to play Aunt May; Doctor Strange had to mindwipe the entire world. And neither of those "undoing" stories is well regarded by fandom, so Marvel isn't as free as the Marvel Cinematic Universe is as far as continuity, since the MCU knows that they will be losing actors to other roles, or those actors will age out. Reboots are practically baked in. The comics are ostensibly telling one story with the same characters for sixty years. They aren't analogous situations.

[Lukmendes]

I’ve seen many conversations about, just for a recent example, Kindred and how it started out as an intriguing mystery but went off the rails towards the end.

I'd say it went of the rails at midway point, all Kindred was doing after a while was do vague threats and be annoying with 'em, near Sins Rising he even said "It's not about who I am, it's about what I want", which aged like milk because what Kindred wants is about as convulted as who he is lol.

So yeah, even before Last Remains he became annoying, then he actually meets Spidey face to face and the story drops the quality immediately, which basically means the Kindred mystery crashed and burned.

Then Sinister War reveals the vehicle that crashed and burned had a nuke in it lol.

And of course people talk about JMS’s issues! Sins Past, anyone? Back in Black? The Other? Doomed Affairs? The Conversation? Happy Birthday? With the exception of Sins Past, they’re very highly regarded.

I'd say The Other is more divisive than highly regarded, but given the amount of writers involved in it, it's surprising it's not worse.