Aunt May needs to know Peter’s identity again

[Matt Rat]

I am with you 100% here. This is what I keep trying to say but people keep responding with how they want him happy and boring.

Happy? Yes, but noone has ever said he should be entirely content either.

Most of the time the talk about how Peter should grow as a character comes across to me as "I wish he was a completely different person. All the interesting things that brought me to Spider-man and made me enjoy him over the years, i want all of them gone."

For some people, a lot of the interesting things that brought them to Spider-Man and made them enjoy him were the things they want restored.

Most of them find him boring now.

And isn't the point of character growth that you don't stay the same person? Stan even says to Peter in the finale of the 90s cartoon he's no longer the same character he began writing.

[Lee]

And isn't the point of character growth that you don't stay the same person? Stan even says to Peter in the finale of the 90s cartoon he's no longer the same character he began writing.

John Semper has talked about that scene in a couple of interviews.

https://dcanimated.com/WF/sections/s...iews/semper10/

Why did the show end with Spidey and MJ not being reunited, and Spidey still spiralling through limbo, when Marvel Films' order was always for 65 episodes?

Oh, as I've said elsewhere, when Peter Parker faces his creator, Stan, and finally says 'I like myself' then his story is complete. He's gone beyond his creator. He's now his own creation. A lot of people think I threw Stan in there as a cheap gimmick, but the bigger, more cosmic issue is overlooked. Here's a guy facing his creator (in essence his deity) and saying, "Guess what? I'm beyond what you created, with all my flaws and problems. I faced the challenge you set out for me and I've progressed beyond it. And I really like myself."

When he can say that, then the hero's journey has been told and the saga is complete. Who cares if he gets the girl or not?

But I left it open in case the series was continued - which was always a possibility. The initial order was for 65 episodes, but Fox could have renewed us for more if they'd wanted. However, the head of Fox Kids Network at the time, Margaret Loesch, hated Avi and wanted to put him out of business, so there was no chance of the show being continued. The show was canceled and, as she had intended, the studio, Marvel Films Animation, went out of business. In the end, my show, which was a number-one-rated hit, was scuttled because of vindictive internal politics. Welcome to my world.

http://drg4.dancemania-ex.com/semper.html

DRG4: You know what I think would have been great for the last two minutes of Farewell Spider-Man?

John Semper: What?

DRG4: If Madame Web presented Mary Jane to Peter as his reward and then Stan Lee popped up and married them for real. And before that happened, Mary Jane would have said that she knew Peter was Spider-Man all along.

John Semper: Nice idea. And the way I left it, you can imagine that and it works. I hinted that it was going to happen something like that, anyway. Mary Jane was never the real issue in Peter's life. Peter's insecurities were. And once those are fixed his problems, as a character, and as a hero in the Joseph Campbell tradition, are over.

As far as John Semper was concerned, that scene was the conclusion of Peter's story.

[Matt Rat]

John Semper has talked about that scene in a couple of interviews.

https://dcanimated.com/WF/sections/s...iews/semper10/



http://drg4.dancemania-ex.com/semper.html



As far as John Semper was concerned, that scene was the conclusion of Peter's story.

Oh, you mean the same Semper who wrote this and wanted to crowd-fund more of it?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLSih2FRYBk

[Agent Z]

I am with you 100% here. This is what I keep trying to say but people keep responding with how they want him happy and boring.

Most of the time the talk about how Peter should grow as a character comes across to me as "I wish he was a completely different person. All the interesting things that brought me to Spider-man and made me enjoy him over the years, i want all of them gone."

Can't help but notice a dash of "no true scotsman" in this comment

[Lukmendes]

The idea that Peter can go on virtually forever without exposing his ID is always an issue, because 1) he rarely makes up competent enough lies so that people would be thrown off, 2) it strains disbelief that no one just finds out by accident, just like May did on JMS' run.

I don't see why that matters that much, super-heroes are at the end of the day, stories for children, it gets edgy and mature, but at their heart they're still stories for children, so silly logic like "Why hasn't everyone found out his secret identity" and "How had the world not collapsed within itself after so many crossover events" just ain't fitting to be here lol.

Maybe Jonah could be the one to tell her, by accident, mistakenly assuming she already knows? That could reignite the feud between Peter and Jonah too, giving him something to do when Silk doesn't have a book.

Like he did with Norman? Lol.

Thinking of it, in Spencer's run, JJ published news about an operation Spidey was doing in secret too, him being a blabbermouth is really in-character.

I am with you 100% here. This is what I keep trying to say but people keep responding with how they want him happy and boring.

Most of the time the talk about how Peter should grow as a character comes across to me as "I wish he was a completely different person. All the interesting things that brought me to Spider-man and made me enjoy him over the years, i want all of them gone."

Sounds like strawmanning, 'cause what I see around a lot tends to be "Can Spider-Man be less of an obnoxious loser?"

Not that I'm denying there are people who want Spidey to be a Mary Sue, there are plenty of those, but wanting his life to be less bad doesn't mean wanting him to be happy and boring, but instead what Marvel prefers is him being miserable and boring.

[Webhead]

I don't see why that matters that much, super-heroes are at the end of the day, stories for children, it gets edgy and mature, but at their heart they're still stories for children, so silly logic like "Why hasn't everyone found out his secret identity" and "How had the world not collapsed within itself after so many crossover events" just ain't fitting to be here lol.

Bear in mind the post I was replying to, argued that anyone in the supporting cast knowing weakens conflict. I'm of the opinion the serial nature of the book has already damaged that conflict; and after OMD/BND, it's now 100% certain it'll never be exposed again, and even if it were, magic would just fix it. Either way, no real conflict.

Not vouching for the secret ID to go away, merely pointing out it's a "shrug and move on" trope.

[Lee]

Oh, you mean the same Semper who wrote this and wanted to crowd-fund more of it?

Yes, that John Semper said that Peter's story, his hero's journey, was over in episode 65.

He wrote an unofficial script for a "lost" final episode as an incentive for his unrelated "War of the Rocket Men" crowd funding campaign. The Spider-Man script was intended to wrap up loose ends and give closure. The story ends, much like episode 65, with Peter accepting himself.

As Semper said, Peter's story was over. The episode 66 script was a coda.

The comic series isn't designed to give Peter an ending. The plates have to keep spinning for many decades to come.

[TinkerSpider]

Sounds like strawmanning, 'cause what I see around a lot tends to be "Can Spider-Man be less of an obnoxious loser?"

Not that I'm denying there are people who want Spidey to be a Mary Sue, there are plenty of those, but wanting his life to be less bad doesn't mean wanting him to be happy and boring, but instead what Marvel prefers is him being miserable and boring.

Co-signed. I find the people who throw out the "SILly FAns JUSt WaNT spiDEr-MAn tO BE haPPy" argument are fundamentally misunderstanding what is being said and are indeed using it as straw man.

If Peter's girlfriend knows he's Spider-Man, that removes one conflict. If Jonah knows Peter is Spider-Man, and turns over a new leaf, that removes another conflict. If Aunt May knows Peter is Spider-Man and supports him, that removes yet another conflict. Who next? All of Peter's friends, like Randy Robertson and the others? It gets to the point where Peter's secret identity has no downsides and there's less and less push and pull between Peter's personal life and his Spider-Man life.

This is an "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy. There is nothing saying that if May knows, then, say, Cissy Ironwood must also know. The possibility of a situation being carried out to an absurd extreme is not a rational argument against why a original scenario shouldn't happen.

Chip Zdarsky had Jonah learn Peter's secret. Norman Osborn now apparently knows. The book still seems to have lots of conflict...

Also, why does May knowing have to be the status quo forever? It didn't stick the first time she told Peter she knew, in the sadly reconned but still classic ASM 400. It didn't remain the status quo the second time she found out. It's comics. Status quos are reset all the time.

The problem with May not knowing, especially now that May has been changed from a frail, out of touch with modern society elderly woman whose heart is about to stop every fifteen minutes to an active, healthy, socially aware and savvy woman in her golden years, is that May not knowing makes her....stupid, actively unaware, and wilfully blind. It's one thing not to notice her nephew and that Spider person keep showing up at the same places and Peter keeps ducking out and Spider-Man keeps ducking in when she's about to die at any minute. She obviously has bigger issues to worry about.

It's another, however, when May is otherwise portrayed as an intelligent, caring and perceptive parental figure who is active in the world. Her being supposedly in the dark makes an otherwise empathic character look callous, as if she is purposefully avoiding acknowledging Peter is a multi-faceted adult. And in a world where LGBTQ+ kids (even fully grown ones) have a hard time coming out to their parents, a scene where Spidey "comes out" to May could be very beneficial.

I have to admit I liked how Wells handled it in ASM #1, with May acknowledging she knows Peter is keeping a big secret from her but she also knows the secret makes him happy so she gives him space to hold it. That way, May's intellect and empathy aren't maligned, but she and Peter (and any reader who wants to) can pretend she doesn't know.

In my next lecture, I will go into the difference between internal and external conflict, and how they each can be used to

[PCN24454]

This is an "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy. There is nothing saying that if May knows, then, say, Cissy Ironwood must also know. The possibility of a situation being carried out to an absurd extreme is not a rational argument against why a original scenario shouldn't happen.

Chip Zdarsky had Jonah learn Peter's secret. Norman Osborn now apparently knows. The book still seems to have lots of conflict...

Also, why does May knowing have to be the status quo forever? It didn't stick the first time she told Peter she knew, in the sadly reconned but still classic ASM 400. It didn't remain the status quo the second time she found out. It's comics. Status quos are reset all the time.

The problem with May not knowing, especially now that May has been changed from a frail, out of touch with modern society elderly woman whose heart is about to stop every fifteen minutes to an active, healthy, socially aware and savvy woman in her golden years, is that May not knowing makes her....stupid, actively unaware, and wilfully blind. It's one thing not to notice her nephew and that Spider person keep showing up at the same places and Peter keeps ducking out and Spider-Man keeps ducking in when she's about to die at any minute. She obviously has bigger issues to worry about.

It's another, however, when May is otherwise portrayed as an intelligent, caring and perceptive parental figure who is active in the world. Her being supposedly in the dark makes an otherwise empathic character look callous, as if she is purposefully avoiding acknowledging Peter is a multi-faceted adult. And in a world where LGBTQ+ kids (even fully grown ones) have a hard time coming out to their parents, a scene where Spidey "comes out" to May could be very beneficial.

I have to admit I liked how Wells handled it in ASM #1, with May acknowledging she knows Peter is keeping a big secret from her but she also knows the secret makes him happy so she gives him space to hold it. That way, May's intellect and empathy aren't maligned, but she and Peter (and any reader who wants to) can pretend she doesn't know.

In my next lecture, I will go into the difference between internal and external conflict, and how they each can be used to

While I want May to know, I think the idea that she either has to know or has to already know is incredibly naive.

People see what they want to see. After all, wouldn’t that be the reason why Peter wouldn’t know that she knows his secret despite it supposedly being obvious?

Your argument is honestly why Peter not being aware of what happens in his friends and families’ social lives makes him look bad. He has just as much responsibility to know these things as she does.

[TinkerSpider]

While I want May to know, I think the idea that she either has to know or has to already know is incredibly naive.

This isn't about my personal feelings, it's about the characterization of May.

People see what they want to see. After all, wouldn’t that be the reason why Peter wouldn’t know that she knows his secret despite it supposedly being obvious?

Peter's character is that of someone who isn't all that emotionally aware of others. He's rather wrapped up in himself. May's character has been established differently.

Your argument is honestly why Peter not being aware of what happens in his friends and families’ social lives makes him look bad. He has just as much responsibility to know these things as she does.

No, because again, this is about characterization. May's characterization is not the same as Peter's characterization. Because they are, y'know, different characters.

[Lee]

This is an "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy. There is nothing saying that if May knows, then, say, Cissy Ironwood must also know. The possibility of a situation being carried out to an absurd extreme is not a rational argument against why a original scenario shouldn't happen.

Mary Jane, J Jonah Jameson, Black Cat and Norman Osborn (no longer evil) all know Peter's secret identity. So does Flash Thompson, who is sure to be folded back into the Spider-Man cast sooner or later. So it's already an absurd extreme as far as the classic supporting cast is concerned. In the extended supporting cast there's Carlie and Anna-Maria. Then there's an almost arbitrary smattering of super-heroes who know. The comic isn't lacking in characters who know that Peter is Spider-Man, another one doesn't need to be added to the list.

[TinkerSpider]

Mary Jane, J Jonah Jameson, Black Cat and Norman Osborn (no longer evil) all know Peter's secret identity. So does Flash Thompson, who is sure to be folded back into the Spider-Man cast sooner or later. So it's already an absurd extreme as far as the classic supporting cast is concerned. In the extended supporting cast there's Carlie and Anna-Maria. Then there's an almost arbitrary smattering of super-heroes who know. The comic isn't lacking in characters who know that Peter is Spider-Man, another one doesn't need to be added to the list.

But according to you, if it's taken to the absurd, there is no conflict.

And yet, there seems to be plenty of story to tell....

[Lukmendes]

Bear in mind the post I was replying to, argued that anyone in the supporting cast knowing weakens conflict. I'm of the opinion the serial nature of the book has already damaged that conflict; and after OMD/BND, it's now 100% certain it'll never be exposed again, and even if it were, magic would just fix it. Either way, no real conflict.

Not vouching for the secret ID to go away, merely pointing out it's a "shrug and move on" trope.

I think the "upper limit" of how many people know now is if everyone just happens to know, 'cause now a bunch of heroes know, JJ of all people knows, for a while Otto knew... While Spidey will likely never go public with it permanently because of the grandfather clause (Even Spidey Home 3 used the silly "worldwide mind wipe" cliché so he can have one again), nowadays secret identities are really not as sacred.

Co-signed. I find the people who throw out the "SILly FAns JUSt WaNT spiDEr-MAn tO BE haPPy" argument are fundamentally misunderstanding what is being said and are indeed using it as straw man.

One time on twitter, think it was when I was checking out Spiderfan001's, I randomly saw someone bitching about people who want Spidey to be happy and missing the point if he is, and the point of that complaint was "Spider-Man's Gala costume is too cool", that's talking like Spidey doesn't have cool costumes, or that having cool costumes means his life is perfect lol.

I do see the point of Spidey not being too happy though, overall no character should be too happy, but the strawmanning in both sides is silly, if he's too happy he'll be boring and if he's suffering too much he'll be boring, have stories where he can be happy, and have stories where he can be miserable, balancing it out is important in keeping the stories interesting, and in particular, if you want a story to be more effective in how miserable Spidey is, then have him become happy first, that way when he becomes miserable you'll pity him more, and once he manages to become happy again, you'll be glad for him more.

Obviously it's not any kind of miserableness though, ASM#1 vol 6 is the perfect example of what to not do, and I'm a fair person, maybe the run will improve after this, it could even become good, but even if that happens, that first issue will be like a shitstain in a white shirt, because the way Spidey is miserable and written, and that dogshit bait at the end, urgh... No reveal after that will make that first issue not annoying, at least to me.

In my next lecture, I will go into the difference between internal and external conflict, and how they each can be used to

Someone learned from ASM#1 vol 6 how to leave a cliffhanger I see .

[Lee]

But according to you, if it's taken to the absurd, there is no conflict.

And yet, there seems to be plenty of story to tell....

I did not say that.

I said that the more people who know Peter is Spider-Man, the more the conflicts inherent in the secret identity are weakened and undermined. I stand by that. Peter's life is easier the more friends and family know his double identity. The double identity theme of the comic becomes weakened. It increasingly becomes a single identity.

Of course there are other sources of conflict. That should go without saying. But the comic is left with one less source of conflict overall, and the secret identity has been a core source of conflict and drama for Spider-Man from the very beginning.

[TinkerSpider]

I think the "upper limit" of how many people know now is if everyone just happens to know, 'cause now a bunch of heroes know, JJ of all people knows, for a while Otto knew... While Spidey will likely never go public with it permanently because of the grandfather clause (Even Spidey Home 3 used the silly "worldwide mind wipe" cliché so he can have one again), nowadays secret identities are really not as sacred.

Pretending there is some arbitary limit is silly because as soon as it’s inconvenient for a story that a character knows Peter is Spider-Man - boom! Mind wipe/death/replacement by shapeshifter/replacement by actress/consciousness switched with someone else/amnesia/world wide magic spell/deal with the devil... I mean, the only thing that is truly limitless are the ways to remove someone's knowledge of Peter's secret identity.

One time on twitter, think it was when I was checking out Spiderfan001's, I randomly saw someone bitching about people who want Spidey to be happy and missing the point if he is, and the point of that complaint was "Spider-Man's Gala costume is too cool", that's talking like Spidey doesn't have cool costumes, or that having cool costumes means his life is perfect lol.

I do see the point of Spidey not being too happy though, overall no character should be too happy, but the strawmanning in both sides is silly, if he's too happy he'll be boring and if he's suffering too much he'll be boring, have stories where he can be happy, and have stories where he can be miserable, balancing it out is important in keeping the stories interesting, and in particular, if you want a story to be more effective in how miserable Spidey is, then have him become happy first, that way when he becomes miserable you'll pity him more, and once he manages to become happy again, you'll be glad for him more.

The thing is, absolutely NO ONE is calling for Peter to be perfectly happy and successful and gainfully employed all the time. That's the straw man, reducing the fans who would like the marriage re-instated or for May to know, to "PEoPle DOn't UNDerstAnd STOrieS NEed CONflICt." Of course conflict is needed! And there was conflict in the marriage stories! Some very highly regarded, now considered classic, stories came out of the marriage era!

And you’re absolutely right. Lows are lows only because they have highs for contrast. If Peter is low all the time, if all his victories are pyrhhic, if he constantly goes to kick the football but it's pulled away at the last minute, then he's just...flat and one note. And a rather dour one.

So when people want Peter to have a supportive relationship with MJ or May, or to be successful in his job, or to even have a cool costume for the Hellfire Gala - it's not because they want his life to be cushy & conflict free. It's because otherwise, readers don't feel the pain of the lows or the joy of the highs. There is no catharsis, just...boredom.

(I also don't get the "PEOplE WAnT To TAKe AWay ThE ReASon WhY ThEY StarTED REadINg SpidER-MaN" arguments. I actually started reading comics - not just Spider-Man but comics in general - because Peter was married. That was cool and unique to me. That made me rethink my stereotyped image of what comic book heroes could be. Now, I'm just one data point and my anecdote is statistically irrelevant, and I read comics now for many other reasons...but what about the people like me who started to read during the 20-year marriage era or whose first issue was a handed down marriage story? It's not an argument I tend to trot out because it's pretty irrelevant - but so is the "TAke AWaY TeH ReASon" argument. People have multiple reasons for why they read Spider-Man. There is no one set standard for why and how readers identify with a character or story.)

Someone learned from ASM#1 vol 6 how to leave a cliffhanger I see .

LOL

I did not say that.

You said:

If Peter's girlfriend knows he's Spider-Man, that removes one conflict. If Jonah knows Peter is Spider-Man, and turns over a new leaf, that removes another conflict. If Aunt May knows Peter is Spider-Man and supports him, that removes yet another conflict. Who next? All of Peter's friends, like Randy Robertson and the others? It gets to the point where Peter's secret identity has no downsides and there's less and less push and pull between Peter's personal life and his Spider-Man life.

To which I said that was a "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy.

You then said:

So it's already an absurd extreme as far as the classic supporting cast is concerned.

To which I pointed out: and yet, there is still conflict.

And now you're saying:

Of course there are other sources of conflict. That should go without saying. But the comic is left with one less source of conflict overall, and the secret identity has been a core source of conflict and drama for Spider-Man from the very beginning.

How many conflicts does one story need? There is still plenty of story to be explored. MJ and Felicia knowing Peter's identity did not stop Jed MacKay's “Mary Jane and Black Cat” from being one of the most entertaining issues of Spider-Man published so far in 2022 - or maybe even this century so far.

Also, if you're going to be a Spider-Man originalist, then shouldn't you be arguing May should be a doddering elderly woman with one foot in the grave so knowing Peter's secret would kill her in the first place?