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  1. #76
    Mighty Member Webhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I think the "upper limit" of how many people know now is if everyone just happens to know, 'cause now a bunch of heroes know, JJ of all people knows, for a while Otto knew... While Spidey will likely never go public with it permanently because of the grandfather clause (Even Spidey Home 3 used the silly "worldwide mind wipe" cliché so he can have one again), nowadays secret identities are really not as sacred.
    Yeah hardly any secret identity outside of Spider-Man, Superman and Batman is really relevant anymore. And the latter two at least make a point of having misdirection be a big part of their civilian identities (though I understand Superman recently went public?). Outside of having Prowler and Ben impersonate him a couple times, Peter has just been making absurd excuses on the fly for 60 years.
    Last edited by Webhead; 05-11-2022 at 08:11 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    How many conflicts does one story need?
    Marvel isn't just concerned with one story. The series has to sustain decades of stories yet to come.

    If a series is built around, for example, 5 sources of conflict, and you remove one of them, then you're left with 4 sources of conflict.

    If a series is built around, for example, 3 themes, and you remove on of them, then you're left with 2 themes.

    The "leading a double life" theme is/was one of the most prominent themes in Spider-Man and one of the greatest sources of tension/drama/conflict. The more cast members who know Peter is Spider-Man, the more that concept is chipped away and weakened.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Also, if you're going to be a Spider-Man originalist, then shouldn't you be arguing May should be a doddering elderly woman with one foot in the grave so knowing Peter's secret would kill her in the first place?
    This is an "If you think X then you must also think Y". No. If I think X then I think X. I think Spider-Man should have a secret identity.

  3. #78
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    Yeah hardly any secret identity outside of Spider-Man, Superman and Batman is really relevant anymore. And the latter two at least make a point of having misdirection be a big part of their civilian identities (though I understand Superman recently went public?). Outside of having Prowler and Ben impersonate him a couple times, Peter has just been making absurd excuses on the fly for 60 years.
    Yeah, Clark outed himself in Bendis's run, and as a result his son Jon (who was Superboy at the time, but is now a second Superman) doesn't have a secret identity either, everyone knows both of them are Superman. Bendis clearly doesn't like secret IDs. While Miles maintains one, his other two teen creations Ironheart and Naomi don't.

    The only other major heroes outside the Bat and Spider families to currently maintain a secret identity are Flash (and the rest of that family) and Ms. Marvel. And I actually thought Kamala would've been outed in the Outlawed event, considering there was that law named after her.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, Clark outed himself in Bendis's run, and as a result his son Jon (who was Superboy at the time, but is now a second Superman) doesn't have a secret identity either.
    The thing is, Jon did try to go to school 'undercover' at the start of Taylor's run, that's how he met his current boyfriend Jay, but he wound up revealing who he was when stopping a school shooter.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Marvel isn't just concerned with one story. The series has to sustain decades of stories yet to come.

    If a series is built around, for example, 5 sources of conflict, and you remove one of them, then you're left with 4 sources of conflict.
    The only limit to souces of conflict in a story is the writer' imagination and talent.

    If a series is built around, for example, 3 themes, and you remove on of them, then you're left with 2 themes.
    The overarching theme of the Spider-Man series is "With Great Power There Must Also Come Great Responsibility." That's it. Take that away and you destroy what makes a Spider-Man story unique and why the character has resonated all these years. Identity has never been a key theme of Spider-Man - certainly not as much as X-Men, where the overarching theme is their identity as mutants dooms them to live in a world that hates and fears them.

    The series is then broken down into story arcs. Within each story arc there can different themes. And again, the only limit to the themes that can be used is the writer's imagination and talent.

    For example, J.M. DeMatteis uses the theme of "are the sins of the father visited on the child" in The Child Within. Nick Spencer also tackled the theme of sin, as did Peter David in the original Sin Eater story. But no one would say "sin" is the overarching theme of Spider-Man. It's A theme that occurs (and it makes sense some of the more literary Spider-Man writers used it, because the theme of sin resonates with the bigger theme of responsibility).

    This isn't to say identity doesn't show up as a theme in individual Spider-Man stories. Gerry Conway used identity as a theme with masks as a motif in Parallel Lives to show Peter and Mary Jane deeply understand and connect with each other. Kraven's Last Hunt, among other themes, does a brilliant job illustrating "does the clothing make the man" (which Superior also tried but fell flat with a resounding thud). Nick Spencer's first arc demonstrated Peter Parker and Spider-Man cannot exist without the other and had Peter literally reconcilling the two into a unified whole, in part to correct the character after 10 years of mostly poor characterization. But it's not an overarching theme. Peter doesn't have to directly worry about revealing his secret identity in a story for it to work. But he should be torn between his responsibilities that come with his power as Spider-Man and his wants/desires as Peter for it to be a Spider-Man story. Should being the operative word.

    The "leading a double life" theme is/was one of the most prominent themes in Spider-Man and one of the greatest sources of tension/drama/conflict. The more cast members who know Peter is Spider-Man, the more that concept is chipped away and weakened.
    Peter originally assumed a secret identity because Aunt May was frail, doddering, and on constant verge of having a heart attack. She had no other family or close support. Peter was afraid if Aunt May knew, he would be just as responsible for her death as he was for Uncle Ben's.

    Keeping his identity a secret from the public - and thus his enemies - is in line with the theme of responsibility. Peter's friends and family are normal humans (well, traditionally. That has also changed). They aren't superheroes or mutants or humans who live in fortified towers. Peter is living up to his responsibilty to keep them safe from potential attacks by guarding his secret from being widely known.

    But once someone is in Peter's circle of trust - which May should be - keeping the secret is emotionally withholding and could be seen as verging on cruel. The revelation MJ knew his secret is part of what allowed their relationship to deepen and grow, turning MJ into a close best friend instead of just a pretty love interest. Peter revealed his secret to deepen the emotional connection with Tim in "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man," making it one of the best regarded stories in the Spider-Man canon. One of Nick Spencer's most emotionally resonant issues was when Peter revealed his identity to Felicia, demonstrating his love and trust in her and making their relationship - and Felicia - whole again.

    Revealing his identity is a tool in the writer's kit, and demanding that tool be taken off the table forever is...silly.

    And again, erasing someone's knowledge of Peter's identity is also a tool. Have a story which requires Aunt May to be in the dark? BOOM! She has amnesia, or psychic or visual blindness is induced, or she's out of town, or she's an actress pretending to be May, or

    Why do you seem to think writers have limited imaginations?

    Again, I really like Wells's approach: May knows something is up but she's leaving space for Peter to have his secret.

    This is an "If you think X then you must also think Y". No. If I think X then I think X. I think Spider-Man should have a secret identity.
    No, this is wondering why you are cherry picking which aspects of "original" Spider-Man must be kept and which can be thrown away, especially since the reason why Peter can't tell May (it would kill her to know) has been removed.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 05-12-2022 at 08:49 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Peter originally assumed a secret identity because Aunt May was frail, doddering, and on constant verge of having a heart attack.
    No he didn't. He originally assumed a secret identity because he didn't want to be a laughing stock if he lost the wrestling match with Crusher Hogan. Then he kept it up and became a celebrity mystery man. He wasn't putting himself in danger or anything, he was having fun and making money. Something extraordinary and wonderful happened to him and he actively chose not to tell Ben or May.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    No, this is wondering why you are cherry picking which aspects of "original" Spider-Man must be kept and which can be thrown away, especially since the reason why Peter can't tell May (it would kill her to know) has been removed.
    It's an opinion. I'm allowed to find some things more important than others.

    When it comes to Batman, I think his secret identity as the wealthy Bruce Wayne is important, Commissioner Gordon is important, the Batcave is important. I don't think Bruce Wayne smoking a pipe is important.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    No he didn't. He originally assumed a secret identity because he didn't want to be a laughing stock if he lost the wrestling match with Crusher Hogan. Then he kept it up and became a celebrity mystery man. He wasn't putting himself in danger or anything, he was having fun and making money. Something extraordinary and wonderful happened to him and he actively chose not to tell Ben or May.
    You got me. And then his wonderful extraordinary thing led to the death of his uncle and he became a crime-fighting vigilante where he put himself in danger and refused to tell his Aunt for fear it would kill her.


    It's an opinion. I'm allowed to find some things more important than others.

    When it comes to Batman, I think his secret identity as the wealthy Bruce Wayne is important, Commissioner Gordon is important, the Batcave is important. I don't think Bruce Wayne smoking a pipe is important.
    Sure. Just curious why the reason "it's in the original" doesn't also apply to Aunt May being doddering and elderly and one 911 call away from the grave. *shrug*

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Majesty's Avatar
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    Alright the whole "Aunt May can't know because it puts her in danger etc etc etc"

    Yes, we know the point of Peter Parker is he can't tell people because it puts the people he loves in danger. We know this. However it would probably make it easier for them to suspect when trouble is coming BECAUSE they know he's Spider-Man and there will always be a risk. It's a lot better than them thinking all is fine and then a Super-villain dropping in on them out of nowhere if they figure out Spider-Man's identity as Peter. A lot of this happens to people that are caught off guard, which is WHY they'd get pissed finding out who he was.

    I always liked when Aunt May always 'knew' Peter was Spider-Man she just never outed him or let him know she knew.

    I honestly love/prefer the portrayal in Spider-Verse with how Aunt May knows, and the dynamic they have.
    Last edited by Majesty; 05-12-2022 at 01:06 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Sure. Just curious why the reason "it's in the original" doesn't also apply to Aunt May being doddering and elderly and one 911 call away from the grave. *shrug*
    Because it's 2022. Captain America should keep his shield, but he shouldn't be fighting racist caricatures of Japanese people.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Because it's 2022. Captain America should keep his shield, but he shouldn't be fighting racist caricatures of Japanese people.
    Elderly people with sensitive health conditions are still very much part of society, and revising May to appear about ten to twenty years younger can be construed as ageist. Just sayin'.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majesty View Post
    Alright the whole "Aunt May can't know because it puts her in danger etc etc etc"

    Yes, we know the point of Peter Parker is he can't tell people because it puts the people he loves in danger. We know this. However it would probably make it easier for them to suspect when trouble is coming BECAUSE they know he's Spider-Man and there will always be a risk. It's a lot better than them thinking all is fine and then a Super-villain dropping in on them out of nowhere if they figure out Spider-Man's identity as Peter. A lot of this happens to people that are caught off guard, which is WHY they'd get pissed finding out who he was.

    I always liked when Aunt May always 'knew' Peter was Spider-Man she just never outed him or let him know she knew.

    I honestly love/prefer the portrayal in Spider-Verse with how Aunt May knows, and the dynamic they have.
    The excuse that Peter hides his identity from his loved ones to protect them is easily destroyed when you remember that Gwen died because she didn't know Peter was Spider-Man. If anything, Peter puts people in more danger by not telling them what they're in by being close to him.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Elderly people with sensitive health conditions are still very much part of society, and revising May to appear about ten to twenty years younger can be construed as ageist. Just sayin'.
    Modern medicine being what it is May would probably be a lot healthier than they portrayed her in the 60s.

    As well...consider the differing views on age between then and now. A women in her late 40s to fifties was considered very old back then. These days there are women in that age group who are considered desirable.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Modern medicine being what it is May would probably be a lot healthier than they portrayed her in the 60s.
    Another reason why hiding his identity from her because he's afraid for her health doesn't work today. So Peter has no story reason to continue prevaricating or obfuscating.

    I always thought May was supposed to be in her seventies or older; that she and Ben were more like the age of Peter's grandparents than parents since Ben was much older than Richard. But that might be fanon and not canon.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 05-12-2022 at 02:03 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Modern medicine being what it is May would probably be a lot healthier than they portrayed her in the 60s.

    As well...consider the differing views on age between then and now. A women in her late 40s to fifties was considered very old back then. These days there are women in that age group who are considered desirable.
    See Marisa Tomei who is considered too young to play May despite being 57.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post

    This is an "If you think X then you must also think Y". No. If I think X then I think X. I think Spider-Man should have a secret identity.
    There's some irony in you arguing this while assuming that everyone who wants Peter to tell May he is Spider-Man wants him to have a life free of conflict or drama.

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