Is (REDACTED) redeemable after Doctor Strange 2? (SPOILER ALERT)

[Havok83]

Agatha's motives were also selfish. Her motivation is getting more power.

Again, Marvel does this a lot with both heroes and villains. I doubt Wanda will even be the last hero given a villain turn in the MCU. They loved that trope in comics. They likely will in the movies too.

I dont care about Agatha though and anything she did or didnt do doesnt negate what Wanda did here

[godisawesome]

Going down this path, since you brought up Germany and WWII, do you believe the United States was just in dropping the atomic bombs on Japan? It ended WWII and in the long run saved untold lives.

Loki's actions did cost more lives, but again he essentially declared war on Earth. The actions taken by opposing sides during a war are almost always judged historically by the victors. It's hard for me to compare that to what Wanda did and has done even from a numbers perspective as you're trying to do. It's like taking the actions of a military sniper and comparing it to that of a serial killer.

Intentionally or not, I think you're really just making the argument that Loki isn't redeemable either. Which I'm perfectly fine with. I think from a fans' perspective though, the reason why they're more forgiving of Loki than I believe they will Wanda is because Loki is a much more established and likeable MCU character, is played by a better actor (no offense to EO because she's good too but I'm just giving my two cents), and has had a much better story arc in the MCU. And yes, I think because we didn't necessarily see Loki slaughtering people the way Wanda was shown, it does skew perspective.

If we're arguing Loki essentially declared war on Earth, then Wanda essentially declared war on merely two organizations, and while Loki's strategic aim was the subjugation of Earth for an intergalactic despot who habitually wipes out half of every planet he conquers, Wanda's was "I want one person." Wanda also conducted herself more diplomatically once her role was declared while primarily engaging only combatants, while Loki continued to ambush initially non-involved parties and specifically and needlessly target civilians. Loki's greater sanity also puts a greater onus on him for his actions than on Wanda.

The fact of the matter is that the only thing Loki's actually got over Wanda is the sexism that comes with being a "Pale Pretty Boy With Daddy Issues," an archetype that pop-culture long ago taught audiences to treat with kid gloves and as a privileged type of villain. Wanda doesn't have that privilege because she dares to have ovaries and not be a man-child.

They're both pretty white people, who would likely have that over a non-white or non-pretty villain, but Loki's immeasurably worse, more callous, and more sane but also more malicious than her... but in the same way that Ben Solo can have his fans demand he be treated better than Rey or Finn in the ST, Loki fans are going to demand he be treated better than Wanda.

Now, I actually don't mind the "too easy to forgive" nature of the MCU if we're using previous standards set by Loki for Wanda... but she's clearly less damaged goods than Loki was.

[GenericUsername]

I dont care about Agatha though and anything she did or didnt do doesnt negate what Wanda did here

It doesn't but it also doesn't mean Marvel won't redeem Wanda. They likely will have Agatha broken from the Darkhold. She was completely different when Wanda freed her from it.

Marvel likes to go back and forth on many characters. In comics, there are very few characters that haven't had a villain turn. And the body count in comics has been massive.

[GenericUsername]

There's a difference between being corrupted by something and being possessed by something. Life experiences can corrupt you. It doesn't take an evil book to do it. And even with that corruption with Agatha and the alternate Stranges, the individual still has a considerable measure of control and decision making.

My point is, Wanda knew the dangers and evilness of the Darkhold but still chose not only to keep it but to use it. Therefore, any corruption that occurred is still entirely her fault. It goes back to my drunk driving analogy.

Agatha had no control, are you kidding? She became a power vampire. I'm sorry they didn't hit you on the nose enough to understand that evil book corrupts. But it does. And Agatha was completely different after being freed.

The others knew the dangers too and chose to still use it.

Doesn't matter what analogy you have, Marvel loves going back and forth on their heroes, and likely will spin things the other way. Just like they did in comics.

I'm also not sure why you bothered to ask people what we think when you are so convinced yourself. You only need to look at Marvel's publication history for your answer anyway.

[kingaliencracker]

If we're arguing Loki essentially declared war on Earth, then Wanda essentially declared war on merely two organizations, and while Loki's strategic aim was the subjugation of Earth for an intergalactic despot who habitually wipes out half of every planet he conquers, Wanda's was "I want one person." Wanda also conducted herself more diplomatically once her role was declared while primarily engaging only combatants, while Loki continued to ambush initially non-involved parties and specifically and needlessly target civilians. Loki's greater sanity also puts a greater onus on him for his actions than on Wanda.

The fact of the matter is that the only thing Loki's actually got over Wanda is the sexism that comes with being a "Pale Pretty Boy With Daddy Issues," an archetype that pop-culture long ago taught audiences to treat with kid gloves and as a privileged type of villain. Wanda doesn't have that privilege because she dares to have ovaries and not be a man-child.

They're both pretty white people, who would likely have that over a non-white or non-pretty villain, but Loki's immeasurably worse, more callous, and more sane but also more malicious than her... but in the same way that Ben Solo can have his fans demand he be treated better than Rey or Finn in the ST, Loki fans are going to demand he be treated better than Wanda.

Now, I actually don't mind the "too easy to forgive" nature of the MCU if we're using previous standards set by Loki for Wanda... but she's clearly less damaged goods than Loki was.

I think making this a "sexist" argument is ridiculous. This has nothing to do with the fact Wanda is female and Loki is male. I've already articulated my point on this well enough I think.

[kingaliencracker]

Agatha had no control, are you kidding? She became a power vampire. I'm sorry they didn't hit you on the nose enough to understand that evil book corrupts. But it does. And Agatha was completely different after being freed.

The others knew the dangers too and chose to still use it.

Doesn't matter what analogy you have, Marvel loves going back and forth on their heroes, and likely will spin things the other way. Just like they did in comics.

I'm also not sure why you bothered to ask people what we think when you are so convinced yourself. You only need to look at Marvel's publication history for your answer anyway.

I'm not arguing whether Marvel will redeem her. They may very well take that path, especially since she's signed on for more films/shows.

I am convinced she's irredeemable, even if Marvel takes that path. You can't go and violently murder people in an attempt to kill a child for her power and come back from that clean, not in my viewpoint. Sorry if you're bothered by my stance. I didn't start this thread to have my mind changed, I started it to engage people in conversation.

[GenericUsername]

I'm not arguing whether Marvel will redeem her. They may very well take that path, especially since she's signed on for more films/shows.

I am convinced she's irredeemable, even if Marvel takes that path. You can't go and violently murder people in an attempt to kill a child for her power and come back from that clean, not in my viewpoint. Sorry if you're bothered by my stance. I didn't start this thread to have my mind changed, I started it to engage people in conversation.

I'm not bothered by your stance. I'm answering your question. She can be redeemed because they've redeemed worse in comics. People were convinced (me as well) that she could not be redeemed in comics. It is very, very likely they are doing a similar thing (likely not exact) in the MCU.

[Zero Hunter]

If she had not taken control of an entire town before even touching the Darkhold I would say yes, but she was already on a very dark path before she even opened the book. I think even without the Darkhold she would have kept spiraling into her depression and PTSD until she snapped since she wasn't going to seek help. The loss of her made up family life added to the loss of her brother and her parents when young just finally pushed her over the edge.

The Darkhold might have helped push her there faster but Wanda was heading that way anyway.

[Shadowedeyes]

I'm not arguing whether Marvel will redeem her. They may very well take that path, especially since she's signed on for more films/shows.

I am convinced she's irredeemable, even if Marvel takes that path. You can't go and violently murder people in an attempt to kill a child for her power and come back from that clean, not in my viewpoint. Sorry if you're bothered by my stance. I didn't start this thread to have my mind changed, I started it to engage people in conversation.

I think the problem I have with this argument is the idea that there is a transactional nature to redemption. It is used a lot in stories like that, but I don't think there is a way to measure that once you've done enough good, you suddenly are okay for having done some bad stuff. It's a process, that like the idea of perfection, is one that we strive to reach but can never actually fulfill.

[Havok83]

I'm not bothered by your stance. I'm answering your question. She can be redeemed because they've redeemed worse in comics. People were convinced (me as well) that she could not be redeemed in comics. It is very, very likely they are doing a similar thing (likely not exact) in the MCU.

Redemption is about perception and forgiveness. There are tons of readers that have not looked past what she has done and nothing Marvel has done with her in the books has changed their stance. Fact. Likewise, I expect it to be the same for Wanda in the films. She is forever ruined for a sector of the audience. Im sure Marvel will try and make her heroic again and some will view her as such but the reality is they too far with her and the opinion will likely forever be split with this version of the character

[GenericUsername]

Redemption is about perception and forgiveness. There are tons of readers that have not looked past what she has done and nothing Marvel has done with her in the books has changed their stance. Fact. Likewise, I expect it to be the same for Wanda in the films. She is forever ruined for a sector of the audience. Im sure Marvel will try and make her heroic again and some will view her as such but the reality is they too far with her and the opinion will likely forever be split with this version of the character

Those readers are in the severe minority though. Barely a dot in the fandom.

[Havok83]

Those readers are in the severe minority though. Barely a dot in the fandom.

Most are X-men readers and that fandom is large

[GenericUsername]

Most are X-men readers and that fandom is large

Not in comparison to the overall fanbase though. And it wasn't even most X-Men readers. It was a few people.

[kingaliencracker]

I'm not bothered by your stance. I'm answering your question. She can be redeemed because they've redeemed worse in comics. People were convinced (me as well) that she could not be redeemed in comics. It is very, very likely they are doing a similar thing (likely not exact) in the MCU.

So in Disassembled and House of M, there was some semblance of sympathy for Wanda in attacking the Avengers since they allowed her mind to be wiped. She also didn't brutally murder tons of people in cold blood in an effort to kill another child. I just don't feel the two equate, but I respect your stance on things.

[GenericUsername]

So in Disassembled and House of M, there was some semblance of sympathy for Wanda in attacking the Avengers since they allowed her mind to be wiped. She also didn't brutally murder tons of people in cold blood in an effort to kill another child. I just don't feel the two equate, but I respect your stance on things.

They didn't allow her mind to be wiped. Agatha made her forget her children and then Wanda remembered it way before Disassembled. She did brutally murder Avengers. Several of them in fact. Jack of Hearts is still gone. Hawkeye, Vision, Jack of Hearts and Scott Lang were all killed. Everyone else injured. She depowered mutants which killed an untold amount. Depending on the story it could be up to millions of people.

All because she took on the Life Force to bring back her sons. Sound familiar?