Is (REDACTED) redeemable after Doctor Strange 2? (SPOILER ALERT)

[Shadowedeyes]

They redeemed Loki.

They sorta have him as an anti-hero, but yah, they've definitely had him go past wiping out a town, trying to kill/subjugate entire worlds, and you know, murder innocent people.

[Anthony W]

Depends on how high Elizabeth Olsen's price has gone up now.

[GenericUsername]

Curious as to whether fans feel Wanda is redeemable after the events of Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.

Given the totality of the character's arc so far, from AoU through Wandavision, and understanding the tragedy she's experienced...I still think she's past the point of no return in terms of becoming a hero again (provided she didn't actually die at the conclusion of the movie, which I don't believe she did).

Truthfully I'm shocked the remaining Avengers didn't go after her following Westview. I thought Doctor Strange's explanation in DS2 that she eventually did the right thing was a cop-out. But I suppose from the end of Wandavision to the beginning of DS2, they wanted us to believe the character was still an Avenger, albeit a flawed one, to set up the surprise of her turn in DS2.

Anyway, my vote is no. Between Westview and the events of DS2, I think she's firmly planted in the dark side.

Of course she is. They are the company that redeemed Bucky and Natasha despite their huge body counts. They had alt Strange destroy an entire universe.

Marvel seems to like their heroes doing bad things.

How they could redeem her is have her help stop the incursions. The Darkhold is partially responsible. I don't believe that all of them are destroyed or Chthon's magic is still lingering. Have her pull a Darkhold Omega. Saving the universe. And she was under the Darkhold's influence anyway.

[GenericUsername]

Wanda was not controlled. She was corrupted based on willing choices she made.

That doesn't compare to Bucky at all.

Corruption has the same affect. The character wasn't one that had a huge body count before ITMoM and the Darkhold influence.

[jetengine]

Is bucky redeemable? He killed tons of good people and his best friends tonys parents who were begging for their lifes?

Bucky and wanda were both controlled. Do you blame the kind wanda from the other earth? It was her body that did the killing. Did they arrest her in that other universe for the deaths?

To me when heroes get mind controlled by someone or something i don't blame them, i blame the one or thing controlling them.

With that said she should have got rid of the darkhold or sent it to dr strange to lock up as soon as she got it.

Bucky was changed *against his Will*, which is the kicker. Wanda knowingly picked up the evil book and hell, she knowingly continued to enslave a town until her fake husband told her "Knock that shit off"

[Twickster]

Loki is a good counterargument, and one I don't have a great retort for other than Loki saw his actions as heroic (kind of a means-justifies-end situation). I also would argue that the most evil thing we saw Loki directly do was kill Coulson, and Coulson did have a gun he was going to use on Loki (albeit ineffectively, in all probability). And honestly, Loki did have a much better character arc in the MCU.

Wanda's actions from Westview to DS2, however, were inherently selfish and unheroic. She wasn't trying to do the right thing - she was trying to mitigate her grief.

What are you talking about?

Loki's first major villanous act was an attempt at full-on planetary genocide against the Ice Giants ("I will destroy that race of monsters!"). They were at cold war with Asgard, but that's no reason to kill them all.

His second act was to invade New York, kill a lot of people with his bare hands (those SHIELD agents, and that guy with his eyeball gauged out comes to mind) then indirectly, at this command, be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians.

Then there's unknowingly helping Kurse take down Asgard's defenses. That's also going to take his death count a few hundreds up.

None of this had any mitigating circumstances. Loki, willingly and will full cognition, chose to do these horrendous acts. Then had a period of contriteness and sacrificed his life, which made people like him again. Except the current Loki had none of that, so he was just told all these things, and he's just... really sorry?

By comparison, Wanda, who in addition to movies worth of mental torture (Parents dead. Torture by HYDRA. Brother dead. Killed her own husband, meaninglessly. Died. Killed her own husband again, and her own children by turning the magic off), is also hit with the equivalent of magical cocaine.

Wanda, at most, killed dozens of people. Loki killed thousands.

She may not be completely morally blameless, but she's a heck of a lot more redeemable than Loki ever was.

[jetengine]

What are you talking about?

Loki's first major villanous act was an attempt at full-on planetary genocide against the Ice Giants ("I will destroy that race of monsters!"). They were at cold war with Asgard, but that's no reason to kill them all.

His second act was to invade New York, kill a lot of people with his bare hands (those SHIELD agents, and that guy with his eyeball gauged out comes to mind) then indirectly, at this command, be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of civilians.

Then there's unknowingly helping Kurse take down Asgard's defenses. That's also going to take his death count a few hundreds up.

None of this had any mitigating circumstances. Loki, willingly and will full cognition, chose to do these horrendous acts. Then had a period of contriteness and sacrificed his life, which made people like him again. Except the current Loki had none of that, so he was just told all these things, and he's just... really sorry?

By comparison, Wanda, who in addition to movies worth of mental torture (Parents dead. Torture by HYDRA. Brother dead. Killed her own husband, meaninglessly. Died. Killed her own husband again, and her own children by turning the magic off), is also hit with the equivalent of magical cocaine.

Wanda, at most, killed dozens of people. Loki killed thousands.

She may not be completely morally blameless, but she's a heck of a lot more redeemable than Loki ever was.

Loki is only "redeemed" because Hiddleston is a charming, likable, actor. Not to mention the Thor franchise floundered without him.

[GenericUsername]

Loki is only "redeemed" because Hiddleston is a charming, likable, actor. Not to mention the Thor franchise floundered without him.

If the conversation is about out of story stuff, they likely will either redeem Wanda or use a different Wanda, because they just signed Liz Olsen to a 7 year deal back in March.

[Agent Z]

IMO, thats a copout. She keeps doing downright f--ked up things yet there is always an excuse to handwave away her actions

Age of Ultron - she starts off as a villian, working with Ultron against the Avengers. Its okay though bc she had been manipulated by Hydra

Civil War - she ends up killing a bunch of people when she flung that bomb into the air. Its okay though bc it was an accident that she didnt mean to cause.

WandaVision - she enslaves a town in a hex reliving her nightmares. Its okay though bc she was just grieving Vision

MOM - She goes full villian, terrorizes a teenage girl across the multiverse, murders a legion of sorcerers, the Illuminati, possesses and uses a variant version of herself as a living weapon. Its okay though bc she just wanted her kids and well the Darkhold was corrupting her

There needs to be consequences to ones actions and they shouldnt just handwave her actions yet again. I feel like WV was the last time that could have worked but they went in a different direction with her

That one was more on Steve for getting distracted allowing Crossbones to set off the bomb.

The rest is all on her.

[Agent Z]

Where was all of this talk about whether Wanda could be redeemed when she loosed the Hulk on a city or enslaved an entire town? How is it that this movie is the breaking point for fans?

[jetengine]

Where was all of this talk about whether Wanda could be redeemed when she loosed the Hulk on a city or enslaved an entire town? How is it that this movie is the breaking point for fans?

Ex-fucking-actly.

The Hulk thing is arguably a war crime and the movie desperately tries to tell us no one died which is insane

[GenericUsername]

But that is the issue. People feel more incensed because people were shown being killed in brutal ways. While the other examples were immoral but didn't show anyone dying.

[Agent Z]

But that is the issue. People feel more incensed because people were shown being killed in brutal ways. While the other examples were immoral but didn't show anyone dying.

So the only difference is that now we saw people die from Wanda's actions? That just makes her fans come across as myopic and in denial to me.

[GenericUsername]

So the only difference is that now we saw people die from Wanda's actions? That just makes her fans come across as myopic and in denial to me.

It's not denial at all. Marvel characters are commonly flawed and flaws are ok. Outright murder, not as common. It's a line they crossed with AD that equally incensed fans. Because it was too far. Gray is ok. Going completely black is not. Mistakes happen, and aren't outright vicious and malicious murder. What they need to do is have Wanda face what she's done and actually work at fixing things. She will never be a perfect character, and I don't think anyone wants that. Characters that are perfect are boring and annoying.

[kingaliencracker]

Corruption has the same affect. The character wasn't one that had a huge body count before ITMoM and the Darkhold influence.

Again, she willingly used the Darkhold knowing its dangers.