Is (REDACTED) redeemable after Doctor Strange 2? (SPOILER ALERT)

[kingaliencracker]

Well I'm talking about the general audience, not individuals such as yourself. And, again, you're ignoring that she was basically overtaken by an evil force, the Darkhold.

I'm not ignoring that, I responded to it directly. She chose to use the Darkhold knowing it was dangerous and corrupting. And she definitely wasn't overtaken by the Darkhold when she enslaved Westview.

[80sbaby]

I'm not ignoring that, I responded to it directly. She chose to use the Darkhold knowing it was dangerous and corrupting. And she definitely wasn't overtaken by the Darkhold when she enslaved Westview.

But she didn't know that. That was my point. You're assuming she knew based on genre savvy but nothing actually says she did.

[kingaliencracker]

But she didn't know that. That was my point. You're assuming she knew based on genre savvy but nothing actually says she did.

It's clear when Agatha tells her about the book that it's dangerous. She even tells her it's the book of the damned.

And it still doesn't excuse the fact that she enslaved Westview prior to even knowing about the book or being corrupted by it.

[80sbaby]

It's clear when Agatha tells her about the book that it's dangerous. She even tells her it's the book of the damned.

And it still doesn't excuse the fact that she enslaved Westview prior to even knowing about the book or being corrupted by it.

Dangerous and corrupting aren't the same thing. It could be dangerous in the wrong hands or someone without enough power. That doesn't mean it will start to take you over and cause you to give in to your darker impulses.

And we aren't talking about Westview at this point.

[kingaliencracker]

Dangerous and corrupting aren't the same thing. It could be dangerous in the wrong hands or someone without enough power. That doesn't mean it will start to take you over and cause you to give in to your darker impulses.

And we aren't talking about Westview at this point.

Well I'm definitely talking Westview. And if she knew the book was dangerous but still decided to use it, then that's still on her regardless if she actually knew it would corrupt her or not. It goes back to my drug analogy - I may not know what heroin does but if someone tells me it's dangerous, I take it, and I wind up killing someone as a result...I'm still responsible for those actions.

[godisawesome]

I think she's redeemable "enough" since we've seen someone like Loki, who tried to destroy a planet, get repackaged as an anti-hero.

I would not argue its fair or equitable... but she's occupied center stage of her own show as a protagonist, has a sympathetic motive and backstory, and figuring out the right angle to approach her with would likely do enough of the job for the overall audience. There's some inherent double standards and hypocrisies in escapist fiction that can be massaged into working as long as you figure out what's the most resonant with the largest amount of people, and how to avoid anything too "damning", and even a damning action can be massaged right if you figure out how to do it. It's like how in Star Wars, Anakin Skywalker was redeemable because of a bunch of things that Ben Solo didn't have - suffering severe consequences for his actions, more appreciable motivation, a clearer role supporting his son's story as the protagonist instead of usurping it himself as Ben did to Rey - that made it so he could overcome a concerted effort by George Lucas to still make him a loathsome villain as Vader... with Ben's fanbase showing how much the double standard and prejudice will exist even without that kind of effort and execution.

I'd say the biggest advantage Wanda has going for her is her backing down and stopping after scaring the kids; it puts a limit on how far she's willing to go without immediately showing her going beyond it. It prevents her from doing a "kill Han Solo" or "choke Padme" moment, and makes her destruction of the Darkhold afterwards a bit like "Loki wants to avenge his mother" in terms of redemptive actions.

I'd imagine that if her kids did make it back to the mainstream MCU, and she returned but as a contrite figure wanting what's best for them without wanting it for herself, and they made her want to atone... you'd probably have 90% of the work done.

[C_Miller]

Loki is a good counterargument, and one I don't have a great retort for other than Loki saw his actions as heroic (kind of a means-justifies-end situation). I also would argue that the most evil thing we saw Loki directly do was kill Coulson, and Coulson did have a gun he was going to use on Loki (albeit ineffectively, in all probability). And honestly, Loki did have a much better character arc in the MCU.

Wanda's actions from Westview to DS2, however, were inherently selfish and unheroic. She wasn't trying to do the right thing - she was trying to mitigate her grief.

I mean, Loki did unleash an alien army on New York that definitely killed a lot of people and did so with the expressed intention of becoming the authoritarian ruler of Earth.

I also disagree that Loki had a much better character arc. I have been very impressed with Wanda (except for her latest adventures) and I think there has been something very compelling about a heightened character who is experiencing real, genuine emotions.

I'd also argue that if the attempt is to redeem her further, we are only in the middle of her arc. Unlike Loki who has gone through two individual progressions from hero to villain.

[CSTowle]

Nah. And agree with the other poster who says she doesn't need to be. Let her be powerful, unbridled, and scary. This version of her at least. If you want a more "innocent" Wanda just pluck one out of another universe, and have her join the fight against herself.

[kingaliencracker]

I mean, Loki did unleash an alien army on New York that definitely killed a lot of people and did so with the expressed intention of becoming the authoritarian ruler of Earth.

Loki would say he was the rightful ruler of Midgard and that any casualties from a result of the battle were collateral damage in a much bigger endgame for him to accomplish his destiny.

I also disagree that Loki had a much better character arc. I have been very impressed with Wanda (except for her latest adventures) and I think there has been something very compelling about a heightened character who is experiencing real, genuine emotions.

Well this is all a matter of opinions of course. I didn't say Wanda had a terrible character arc, although we've never really seen her do much of anything heroic - mostly just fixing her own mistakes. I just think Loki had a much better character arc in the MCU

I'd also argue that if the attempt is to redeem her further, we are only in the middle of her arc. Unlike Loki who has gone through two individual progressions from hero to villain.

I think one of the other differences between Wanda and Loki is that Loki started off evil but went on a redemptive path. Wanda started off misguided, but then went crazy and enslaved a town before she went even crazier and slaughtered a bunch of people. I just felt we never really got to see her be heroic.

[Scott Taylor]

Pretty sure Agatha told her the book had corrupting capabilities. She definitely tells her it's the book of the damned, which I think is a pretty clear warning.

Agatha gave her a ton of warnings and was genuinely frightened that she inadvertently created the legendary Scarlet Witch by her manipulations using the Darkhold. Wanda knew completely what she was doing. Also, I think just the fact that the book is called "THE DARKHOLD" might be a clue that using it could be problematic.

Wanda is completely redeemable, where the movie left her. She came to her senses and destroyed all copies of the Darkhold, and made things right at the end. She is an interesting character and I hope someday she can have Vision back and settle down with him in peace.

[kingaliencracker]

Agatha gave her a ton of warnings and was genuinely frightened that she inadvertently created the legendary Scarlet Witch by her manipulations using the Darkhold. Wanda knew completely what she was doing. Also, I think just the fact that the book is called "THE DARKHOLD" might be a clue that using it could be problematic.

Wanda is completely redeemable, where the movie left her. She came to her senses and destroyed all copies of the Darkhold, and made things right at the end. She is an interesting character and I hope someday she can have Vision back and settle down with him in peace.

As I stated, the Avengers NOT going after Wanda following Westview was a major plot hole I still can't wrap my ahead around, and Strange's explanation as to why they didn't makes it even worse. It almost makes them somewhat culpable for the events in DS2.

I don't know. Even in the comics and during HOUSE OF M and DISASSEMBLED, I felt she wasn't irredeemable. Her slaughtering everyone in DS2 to get to a child she could also kill...yeah, that's a different level for me for sure.

[Frobisher]

As I stated, the Avengers NOT going after Wanda following Westview was a major plot hole I still can't wrap my ahead around, and Strange's explanation as to why they didn't makes it even worse. It almost makes them somewhat culpable for the events in DS2.

I don't know. Even in the comics and during HOUSE OF M and DISASSEMBLED, I felt she wasn't irredeemable. Her slaughtering everyone in DS2 to get to a child she could also kill...yeah, that's a different level for me for sure.

Sam and Bucky would have helped out Wanda after Endgame but they had a boat to fix up.

But seriously it does go to show how the Avengers often feel more like colleagues than family who’ve got each other’s back no matter what.

[Havok83]

As I stated, the Avengers NOT going after Wanda following Westview was a major plot hole I still can't wrap my ahead around, and Strange's explanation as to why they didn't makes it even worse. It almost makes them somewhat culpable for the events in DS2.

I don't know. Even in the comics and during HOUSE OF M and DISASSEMBLED, I felt she wasn't irredeemable. Her slaughtering everyone in DS2 to get to a child she could also kill...yeah, that's a different level for me for sure.

What Avengers? Is there any evidence that they even still exist as a team post Endgame?

Black Widow - dead
Ironman - dead
Captain America - old and inactive
Thor - with the Guardians of the Galaxy in space
Hawkeye - retired, living with family
Hulk - Bruce at least popped up in his human form in the Shang Chi mid credit
Falcon and bucky - they may join the Avengers in the future but weren't during the events of FATWC
Black Panther - was never officially an Avenger and less likely with CB's death
Nebula and Rocket - back in space with the Guardians
Vision - was dead but current status is unknown
Captain Marvel - also never officially an Avenger and is presumably still in space
Spider-man - yeah definitely not after NWH
War Machine - I guess he may be
Antman - status unknown, but presumably back to being a father

Of this bunch, that leaves Bruce, War Machine, Antman, Bucky and Sam but something tells me, they arent working as an active Avengers squad. I think it comes down to Tony and Steve being the glue to the team back in the first two films and CW. After that the "Avengers" felt more like a team up of random super beings that helped each other out when a major threat called for it. So far there hasnt been a major threat to unite heroes in the same way as the stuff in Phase IV has either been small scale or lasted relatively short

[kingaliencracker]

What Avengers? Is there any evidence that they even still exist as a team post Endgame?

Black Widow - dead
Ironman - dead
Captain America - old and inactive
Thor - with the Guardians of the Galaxy in space
Hawkeye - retired, living with family
Hulk - Bruce at least popped up in his human form in the Shang Chi mid credit
Falcon and bucky - they may join the Avengers in the future but weren't during the events of FATWC
Black Panther - was never officially an Avenger and less likely with CB's death
Nebula and Rocket - back in space with the Guardians
Vision - was dead but current status is unknown
Captain Marvel - also never officially an Avenger and is presumably still in space
Spider-man - yeah definitely not after NWH
War Machine - I guess he may be
Antman - status unknown, but presumably back to being a father

Of this bunch, that leaves Bruce, War Machine, Antman, Bucky and Sam but something tells me, they arent working as an active Avengers squad. I think it comes down to Tony and Steve being the glue to the team back in the first two films and CW. After that the "Avengers" felt more like a team up of random super beings that helped each other out when a major threat called for it. So far there hasnt been a major threat to unite heroes in the same way as the stuff in Phase IV has either been small scale or lasted relatively short

The Shang-Chi post credits definitely indicated there was some semblance of a team.

[jetengine]

Wanda Wanda murdered a metric ton of people and wiped out another worlds super-team. No, she's not redeemable.