Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 86
  1. #31
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    not sure whats the fascination of having gwen being the perfect girl.
    Probably because it makes her death hit that much harder for those people, never mind that someone shouldn't have to be "perfect" for their death to be mourned and the people who loved them, in all their imperfection, to miss them terribly and wish things had been different.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    861

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    not sure whats the fascination of having gwen being the perfect girl.
    She was awful. I don't care if the fans say I'm not a fan because I hated Gwen. She was just a younger version of Aunt May. She was a bitch when we first met her where all she did was treat Peter like garbage. Then when they started dating all she went on about was how "awful that Spider-Man is." Shut the hell up. It's true what they say; every man does date/marry his own mother and Peter was basically dating young aunt may. I can't understand how anyone gives a single care about her. I can't even say the best thing about her is that she's dead because every decade she seems to come back 2-3 freaking times.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    She died feeling betrayed and hated Peter for it. You can guess what that sort of thing can do to people who idealise her and what she means to Peter.
    She explicitly says she didn't hate him lol.



    (ASM#23 vol 4).

    Even if she died hating him, you couldn't exactly blame her for it too, she fucking hates Spider-Man for very understandable reasons, learning that the guy she loves is also the guy she hates, and she dies before she has enough time to process all of this, shit, it's a wonder she says she died only feeling betrayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    not sure whats the fascination of having gwen being the perfect girl.
    Me neither, it actually does a disservice to Gwen to pretend she was something she was not.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    She was awful. I don't care if the fans say I'm not a fan because I hated Gwen. She was just a younger version of Aunt May. She was a bitch when we first met her where all she did was treat Peter like garbage. Then when they started dating all she went on about was how "awful that Spider-Man is." Shut the hell up. It's true what they say; every man does date/marry his own mother and Peter was basically dating young aunt may.
    She was a terribly written character yes, but unlike aunt May she actually did like Spider-Man at first and that was when they were dating, but Spidey's own poor decisions made her hate Spider-Man before she started to blame him for her father's death, while aunt May hated Spider-Man just, because the plot said so, and then that senile old idiot thinks a terrorist like Otto is a good guy...
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    344

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    wait thats an issue why? She still died?
    Because it was wholly unnecessary. As you point out, it didn't change the outcome, and was just a writer trying to insert himself into a classic Spider-man story that didn't need his insertion. Peter already felt guilty for her death because of *snap*, Slott was just trying to up the misery stakes where no upping the misery was needed.

    Also, Gwen's death is already a case of a character having no agency in their death. This just ups Gwen's lack of agency even more. She was AWAKE and still got to be thrown, unstruggling, to her death? So now Peter has to deal with the knowledge she was conscious?!

    It's a pointless and asinine retcon and says more about Slott as a writer than it does about Peter and Gwen.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 05-13-2022 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Minerboh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    1,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    She explicitly says she didn't hate him lol.



    (ASM#23 vol 4).

    Even if she died hating him, you couldn't exactly blame her for it too, she fucking hates Spider-Man for very understandable reasons, learning that the guy she loves is also the guy she hates, and she dies before she has enough time to process all of this, shit, it's a wonder she says she died only feeling betrayed.



    Me neither, it actually does a disservice to Gwen to pretend she was something she was not.



    She was a terribly written character yes, but unlike aunt May she actually did like Spider-Man at first and that was when they were dating, but Spidey's own poor decisions made her hate Spider-Man before she started to blame him for her father's death, while aunt May hated Spider-Man just, because the plot said so, and then that senile old idiot thinks a terrorist like Otto is a good guy...
    Oh God... You really need to see my face reaction when I red Aunt May's and Dock Ock's first meeting and then that subplot where she actually gave him a room to stay in the Amnesiac Spider-Man storyline.
    I said to myself... ''She couldn't possibly be that stupid''.
    And years later the story with her almost marrying him dropped. Then I said to myself... ''Is it sure she didn't caused Uncle Ben's death?''
    Last edited by Minerboh; 05-13-2022 at 03:09 PM.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Because it was wholly unnecessary. As you point out, it added nothing to Gwen's death nor changed the circumstances, and was just a writer trying to insert himself into a classic Spider-man story that didn't need his insertion. Peter already felt guilty for her death because of *snap*, Slott was just trying to up the misery stakes where no upping the misery was needed. It's pointless and asinine and says more about Slott as a writer than it does about Peter and Gwen.
    I don't see what's the problem with that since Gwen in the original story was nothing but someone who dies just so Spidey can feel sad, at least the retcon gives her some of her thoughts while that was going on, and Spidey's talk with Gwen doesn't actually use her "died feeling betrayed" as something too much against him considering she says she still loved him even then, so it's hardly making him more miserable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minerboh View Post
    Oh God... You really need to see my face reaction when I red Aunt May's and Dock Ock's first meeting and then that story where she actually gave him a room to stay in the Amnesiac Spider-Man storyline.
    I said to myself... ''She couldn't possibly be that stupid''.
    And years later the story with her almost marrying him dropped. Then I said to myself... ''Is it sure she didn't caused Uncle Ben's death?''
    I can only wonder what the fuck Conway was thinking with that almost marriage, I mean shit, they didn't interact that many times, and she was getting married in secret without telling Peter? What the fuck?

    I guess Conway was just doing gimmicky comics writing while not asking himself if that works in ASM.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 05-13-2022 at 03:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    344

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I don't see what's the problem with that since Gwen in the original story was nothing but someone who dies just so Spidey can feel sad, at least the retcon gives her some of her thoughts while that was going on, and Spidey's talk with Gwen doesn't actually use her "died feeling betrayed" as something too much against him considering she says she still loved him even then, so it's hardly making him more miserable.
    .
    Really? You learn your girlfriend wasn't unconscious and thus blissfully unaware of her impending death but instead was fully cognizant of the horror being visited upon her and that's not supposed to make you feel even worse?

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Really? You learn your girlfriend wasn't unconscious and thus blissfully unaware of her impending death but instead was fully cognizant of the horror being visited upon her and that's not supposed to make you feel even worse?
    That point is only used to make Gwen more miserable, not Spidey, when he learns that she was hearing everything, he points out that she died hating him, only for her to say she died feeling betrayed, if they were going to use "Gwen was awake when she died and that realization made Spidey a sadder man" then they would've done so, and they didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,034

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Probably because it makes her death hit that much harder for those people, never mind that someone shouldn't have to be "perfect" for their death to be mourned and the people who loved them, in all their imperfection, to miss them terribly and wish things had been different.
    I think part of it is MJ, Peter, etc. remembering only her best and just sub-consciously ignoring her bad which is kinda realistic tbh

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    344

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That point is only used to make Gwen more miserable, not Spidey, when he learns that she was hearing everything, he points out that she died hating him, only for her to say she died feeling betrayed, if they were going to use "Gwen was awake when she died and that realization made Spidey a sadder man" then they would've done so, and they didn't.
    You're expecting a Slott story to make emotional sense and to be aware of how real people would actually react in the situation?

    This is just another example of how Slott writes plastic toys, not three-dimensional characters.

    I were in the same situation, I would be horrified and forever haunted knowing my loved one did not have the benefit of being unconscious so they weren't aware they were about to die, as I thought they had, but instead were fully aware of their impending doom. (Also, Gwen probably would have died feeling panicked and horrified and desperately scared, not thinking, "Oh Petey, I still love you despite your betrayal" -- but again, that takes a writer who writes people, not LEGO minifigs.)

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You're expecting a Slott story to make emotional sense and to be aware of how real people would actually react in the situation? :P

    This is just another example of how Slott writes plastic toys, not three-dimensional characters.

    I were in the same situation, I would be horrified and forever haunted knowing my loved one did not have the benefit of being unconscious so they weren't aware they were about to die, as I thought they had, but instead were fully aware of their impending doom. (Also, Gwen probably would have died feeling panicked and horrified and desperately scared, not thinking, "Oh Petey, I still love you despite your betrayal" -- but again, that takes a writer who writes people, not LEGO minifigs.)
    Worth pointing out Gage is also a writer in that issue, so whatever logic problems he also shares the blame in ASM#23 vol 5.

    Anyways, we see her thoughts when she's laying down and once she learns Spidey is Peter she's pissed, confused, thinking that she loved Peter and how he betrayed her, he tries to save her and she wants him to stay away from her, and once she starts to fall all she can think about is how she doesn't deserve to die like this, so yeah, she wasn't just thinking "I love you despite your betrayal", there was more going on than just that:







    (Clone Conspiracy#1).

    And regardless of how you'd feel, your point is that Slott only made that retcon to make Spidey more miserable when that wasn't done at all, you're holding something against Slott that he didn't even do.

    Slott is a hack of a writer at times and there are plenty of questionable writing choices to talk about, let's not talk shit about him for stuff that he didn't do, this fanbase already has a silly hate boner for the guy to the point I've seen people blaming him more than once for resurrecting Kraven (Which, for anyone who still thinks he did so, he didn't, he's not Grim Hunt's writer, that would be Joe Kelly, and the only time Slott used Kraven was in RYV, in 616 he pretended Kraven was dead and never used him in his ASM run), not liking his writing style is fine, but let's avoid finding excuses to dislike him more by talking shit about things he didn't do.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  12. #42
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    344

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    And regardless of how you'd feel, your point is that Slott only made that retcon to make Spidey more miserable when that wasn't done at all, you're holding something against Slott that he didn't even do.
    My original point was: “it didn't change the outcome, and was just a writer trying to insert himself into a classic Spider-man story that didn't need his insertion. Peter already felt guilty for her death because of *snap*, Slott was just trying to up the misery stakes where no upping the misery was needed. Also, Gwen's death is already a case of a character having no agency in their death. This just ups Gwen's lack of agency even more. She was AWAKE and still got to be thrown, unstruggling, to her death? So now Peter has to deal with the knowledge she was conscious?!”

    I didn’t mean just Peter’s misery — although I still think learning your loved one was awake and aware of their immediate death would be miserable and awful and haunting for most people to know. It would devastate me — I meant misery in general. But I could have been clearer.

    As for Slott did, or perhaps what Slott plotted and Gage scripted: He wrote Gwen as being aware when she died.

    He took away Gwen being unconscious when she died and made her aware of her own death, which is unnecessarily cruel. How many times do people say, “Well, at least he died in his sleep” or “the doctors say she would have been unconscious at the time of impact so she didn’t know or feel a thing” because it’s understood it is a mercy to not be aware you’re about to die and to not experience that fear/struggle/pain. He took away Peter’s peace of mind that at least Gwen died without being in mental pain, even if he didn’t follow up on that.

    He makes Gwen’s death mostly all about Peter. Nearly her every thought is about him and not about how is she going to get out of this. And he adds how Peter’s betrayal makes her hurt all over, adding wholly unnecessary pain. She even cries over Peter, and not the incredibly dangerous situation she is in. But I’ll give them credit for giving her a few panels at the very end to think about herself. Nice of them to allow her that.

    This story probably bugs me the most of Slott’s oeuvre simply because it so wholly unnecessary and the only thing it contributes is to heap more misery on an already dead female character, so yeah, I’m not giving him a pass. It was a very bad idea. At least Sins Past tried to give Gwen’s character some extra depth (not successfully, but still) and attempted to be additive to the canon. This is just…making her even more of a victim without agency who isn’t even centered in her own death.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 05-13-2022 at 10:55 PM.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    My original point was: “it didn't change the outcome, and was just a writer trying to insert himself into a classic Spider-man story that didn't need his insertion. Peter already felt guilty for her death because of *snap*, Slott was just trying to up the misery stakes where no upping the misery was needed. Also, Gwen's death is already a case of a character having no agency in their death. This just ups Gwen's lack of agency even more. She was AWAKE and still got to be thrown, unstruggling, to her death? So now Peter has to deal with the knowledge she was conscious?!”

    I didn’t mean just Peter’s misery — although I still think learning your loved one was awake and aware of their immediate death would be miserable and awful and haunting for most people to know. It would devastate me — I meant misery in general. But I could have been clearer.
    You put more emphasis over this being something to make Peter more miserable than Gwen lol.

    As for Slott did, or perhaps what Slott plotted and Gage scripted: He wrote Gwen as being aware when she died.

    He took away Gwen being unconscious when she died and made her aware of her own death, which is unnecessarily cruel. How many times do people say, “Well, at least he died in his sleep” or “the doctors say she would have been unconscious at the time of impact so she didn’t know or feel a thing” because it’s understood it is a mercy to not be aware you’re about to die and to not experience that fear/struggle/pain. He took away Peter’s peace of mind that at least Gwen died without being in mental pain, even if he didn’t follow up on that.
    And you're still talking about it being Peter's misery.

    This point was not used to make him more miserable, at no point during or after that does Spidey think about how sad he is over the new context of Gwen's death, because the point wasn't that but him thinking she died hating him, it's questionable to keep using your headcanons to hold something against Slott.

    He makes Gwen’s death mostly all about Peter. Nearly her every thought is about him and not about how is she going to get out of this. And he adds how Peter’s betrayal makes her hurt all over, adding wholly unnecessary pain. She even cries over Peter, and not the incredibly dangerous situation she is in. But I’ll give them credit for giving her a few panels at the very end to think about herself. Nice of them to allow her that.
    She just found out Peter is Spider-Man, she blamed Spider-Man for at least months for her father's death, and now she's about to die because some douchebag captured her to get back at Peter, how can she possibly not think about him a lot at that very moment? Spider-Man has been a central figure in her torment, and Peter is the man she loved, are you really expecting her to not keep thinking about him after finding out they're the same person?

    It is silly how she doesn't think about how to escape though, I'll give you that, the closest thing of her commenting about that is how her entire body hurts, but she's still not thinking on how to escape.

    This story probably bugs me the most of Slott’s oeuvre simply because it so wholly unnecessary and the only thing it contributes is to heap more misery on an already dead female character, so yeah, I’m not giving him a pass. It was a very bad idea. At least Sins Past tried to give Gwen’s character some extra depth (not successfully, but still) and attempted to be additive to the canon. This is just…making her even more of a victim without agency who isn’t even centered in her own death.
    I prefer this over Sins Past nonsense all day, Gwen in the original story had so little agency that after she's kidnapped, she might as well have been replaced with a puppy Norman decided to bridge instead, she was nothing but something to make Spidey sadder despite still being alive for a bit during the conflict, at least now her own thoughts over what happened are shown.

    And yeah, it makes the whole situation more horrible, kinda the point considering that being killed because some psychopath is butthurt is not gonna be something to celebrate over, though this part in particular is just opinion, I don't mind it but you don't like it, better to just agree to disagree about this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  14. #44
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    30,181

    Default

    I don't see any issue with Gwen not thinking of a way to escape. Between how scared she is and the bombshell of her boyfriend being Spider-Man, her mind would be chaotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Probably because it makes her death hit that much harder for those people, never mind that someone shouldn't have to be "perfect" for their death to be mourned and the people who loved them, in all their imperfection, to miss them terribly and wish things had been different.
    However, I've also observed that Gwen not being perfect often gets brought up by her haters, not to portray her as a complicated person, but to imply or state outright that Gwen deserved to die and should not be missed.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    344

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    And you're still talking about it being Peter's misery.

    This point was not used to make him more miserable, at no point during or after that does Spidey think about how sad he is over the new context of Gwen's death, because the point wasn't that but him thinking she died hating him, it's questionable to keep using your headcanons to hold something against Slott.
    This may be a question of empathy. If a character revealed they did not die peacefully and unaware, but mentally suffering and horrified, most people with strong empathy would think that is terrible and it would haunt them. It also means Gwen was fully aware Peter was there and did not save her. Again, for people who have strong empathy, this would be horrifying new knowledge. This isn’t headcanon, it’s basic human psychology.

    Peter may not have the strongest empathy, but he does have guilt in spades. I agree Slott did not pull on that thread, instead making Gwen’s and Peter’s conversation about how Gwen felt about Peter as she died (once more not centering her but rather Peter in Gwen’s own death) - but to me, that just underscores he does not write believable characters with believable human reactions.

    It is silly how she doesn't think about how to escape though, I'll give you that, the closest thing of her commenting about that is how her entire body hurts, but she's still not thinking on how to escape.
    Most people would tell you in moments of high stress in which you are under attack/threat of dying, you’re not thinking about your boyfriend’s secret identify even if you just learned it. You’d be thinking about how to get out of danger/save your life. Hierarchy of priorities.

    I prefer this over Sins Past nonsense all day, Gwen in the original story had so little agency that after she's kidnapped, she might as well have been replaced with a puppy Norman decided to bridge instead, she was nothing but something to make Spidey sadder despite still being alive for a bit during the conflict, at least now her own thoughts over what happened are shown.
    But her thoughts are nearly all about Peter! Poor Gwen can’t even star in her own death. She continues to be just the weepy, horribly acted on but rarely active in her own right girlfriend. There is nothing knowing Gwen’s thoughts adds to the story, except to up her suffering and the tragedy porn even more.

    And yeah, it makes the whole situation more horrible, kinda the point considering that being killed because some psychopath is butthurt is not gonna be something to celebrate over, though this part in particular is just opinion, I don't mind it but you don't like it, better to just agree to disagree about this point.
    Agree!
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 05-14-2022 at 07:24 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •