I dislike the handling and reaction of Tim's relationships

[SiegePerilous02]

Aw, I love being called one of "the straights." Totally not insulting at all. Almost as good as being called a "breeder."

As I said, I'm fine with Tim being LBGT, but I'm not cool with pandering. That's not representation, that's a halfassed effort to shut people like us up. If we wanna reach a point where LBGT characters are common enough to not warrant discussions like these, then we need a hell of a lot better than pandering.

For what it's worth, it wasn't aimed at you specifically. And I didn't mean it as a grave insult, though it may come across that way in text. Because I wouldn't automatically view being called one of "the gays" as an insult (depending on the context/tone I guess) because it would be factual. At least it's not a slur (of which we have several made for us that heterosexuals don't).

We do need better than pandering, and Tim's case isn't perfectly executed, but sometimes pandering is all we in the LGBTQ community are afforded. We should be getting much more frequent, diverse and in-depth media representation than we do...but then, look at the "Don't Say Gay" bill and the reaction the same sex kiss in Buzz Lightyear got. The "gays are pedophiles!" chestnut is also being trotted out again, because I guess we traveled back in time to the 1950s. To put it lightly, things aren't going so hot and it's a constant struggle for representation in media to help us get through reality.

It's also frustrating that anything LGBTQ related gets dismissed as "pandering," and has to go through so much stricter criteria before it can matter. It's also frequently the non-queer members of the audience who dismiss it as pandering, even among new characters who simply exist in the background (superhero media or not), without any clear example of what constitutes pandering and not. We deserve better than half assed pandering, and there are diverse opinions and criticisms among the community for stuff like Tim's change, but we might as well hold onto it while still fighting for more. Every little bit helps.

[Lal]

For what it's worth, it wasn't aimed at you specifically. And I didn't mean it as a grave insult, though it may come across that way in text. Because I wouldn't automatically view being called one of "the gays" as an insult (depending on the context/tone I guess) because it would be factual. At least it's not a slur (of which we have several made for us that heterosexuals don't).

We do need better than pandering, and Tim's case isn't perfectly executed, but sometimes pandering is all we in the LGBTQ community are afforded. We should be getting much more frequent, diverse and in-depth media representation than we do...but then, look at the "Don't Say Gay" bill and the reaction the same sex kiss in Buzz Lightyear got. The "gays are pedophiles!" chestnut is also being trotted out again, because I guess we traveled back in time to the 1950s. To put it lightly, things aren't going so hot and it's a constant struggle for representation in media to help us get through reality.

It's also frustrating that anything LGBTQ related gets dismissed as "pandering," and has to go through so much stricter criteria before it can matter. It's also frequently the non-queer members of the audience who dismiss it as pandering, even among new characters who simply exist in the background (superhero media or not), without any clear example of what constitutes pandering and not. We deserve better than half assed pandering, and there are diverse opinions and criticisms among the community for stuff like Tim's change, but we might as well hold onto it while still fighting for more. Every little bit helps.

I think my main problem with the Tim coming out story (as well as his entire relationship with Bernard) is that it was rushed and really shallow. This coming out story should have been a huge deal, a definitive, well-crafted story, diving into the depth of Tim's character. It should have been a must read story, one of the most important Tim stories, re-defining something about him and adding another layer.
But it wasn't. Tim's coming out story wasn't part of an excellent, deep arc of him figuring himself out, or even showing how he started to like Bernard more and more, understanding there's something deeper than friendships here. We didn't get any of these. We didn't see Tim coming out to his family or to Steph, never saw their reactions. Most things happened off-panel, and what did happen, was in a side story in an anthology book, in which Tim didn't even get a cover or a variant for his coming out story (until issue 10, months after the buzz). Everything about it was just the bare minimum.
While I'm happy for the representation (although I admit I'd much prefer Dick), everything about it was rushed and read like a last attempt to make Tim unique. He's the Robin that DC didn't know what to do with, so he could be their bi Robin.

It's not too late to still make it meaningful, though. The next story could include flashbacks of Tim starting to figure himself out slowly, looking at events retroactively in a new light, talking with his family, with Steph, maybe give us some insight as to why he even likes Bernard. We could even get some fluff. Dick's love and support with some brotherly teasing, Damian promising to hurt anyone who'd dare say something offensive to him, Steph promising to be there for him as friend no matter what.
I still hope to see all of that.

[Aahz]

If we wanna reach a point where LGBT characters are common enough to not warrant discussions like these, then we need a hell of a lot better than pandering.

Honestly DC has more than enough LGBT characters at this point, the main problem is not a lack of LGBT characters, but a lack of popularity of these characters.

And that DC seems to constantly forget about the ones they have, to introduce new ones or bend characters that have been writes a straight for decades is not really helping.

And honestly with some of the old characters it felt way less "pandering" or "gimmicky" than with the newer ones. I mean compare the Tim Drake coming out (or any other from the last 10 years or so) with Rene Montoya in Gotham Central ...

[Psy-lock]

I think my main problem with the Tim coming out story (as well as his entire relationship with Bernard) is that it was rushed and really shallow. This coming out story should have been a huge deal, a definitive, well-crafted story, diving into the depth of Tim's character. It should have been a must read story, one of the most important Tim stories, re-defining something about him and adding another layer.
But it wasn't. Tim's coming out story wasn't part of an excellent, deep arc of him figuring himself out, or even showing how he started to like Bernard more and more, understanding there's something deeper than friendships here. We didn't get any of these. We didn't see Tim coming out to his family or to Steph, never saw their reactions. Most things happened off-panel, and what did happen, was in a side story in an anthology book, in which Tim didn't even get a cover or a variant for his coming out story (until issue 10, months after the buzz). Everything about it was just the bare minimum.
While I'm happy for the representation (although I admit I'd much prefer Dick), everything about it was rushed and read like a last attempt to make Tim unique. He's the Robin that DC didn't know what to do with, so he could be their bi Robin.

All that is true. In a perfect world, this would've happened in Tim's solo book after years of proper development, but better a small fish than an empty dish.

[Waterfall]

Barbara and Dick is also pandering in Taylor's run but nobody bats an eye because it's a straight couple.

He's discovering about himself so it's normal to focus on that aspect of his character for a while. Figuring out your sexuality is a process, not "one day waking up and feeling attracted to other men". He's a bisexual, which means he is attracted to both women and men.

I still don't understand the need to be angry about this. All comic book heroes have huge subplots with their love interests in it. Tim happens to have a boyfriend now so his "ordinary life" subplot will be about his romance life, like any other hero.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Barbara and Dick is also pandering in Taylor's run but nobody bats an eye because it's a straight couple.

He's discovering about himself so it's normal to focus on that aspect of his character for a while. Figuring out your sexuality is a process, not "one day waking up and feeling attracted to other men". He's a bisexual, which means he is attracted to both women and men.

I still don't understand the need to be angry about this. All comic book heroes have huge subplots with their love interests in it. Tim happens to have a boyfriend now so his "ordinary life" subplot will be about his romance life, like any other hero.

I think the thing that people are not happy about is how his relationship with Steph is being treated. It was a huge part of both of them, so an off-panel breakup for no reason soured a lot of people. Not to mention they seem to be throwing it under the bus to promote the new guy and downplaying it or acting like it isn't important. I mean WFA is already doing so. It feels less like being genuinely bi and more like the twitter/tumblr view where bi means gay but just as a way to explain past relations with the opposite sex which will never occur again.

[Lal]

Barbara and Dick is also pandering in Taylor's run but nobody bats an eye because it's a straight couple.

He's discovering about himself so it's normal to focus on that aspect of his character for a while. Figuring out your sexuality is a process, not "one day waking up and feeling attracted to other men". He's a bisexual, which means he is attracted to both women and men.

I still don't understand the need to be angry about this. All comic book heroes have huge subplots with their love interests in it. Tim happens to have a boyfriend now so his "ordinary life" subplot will be about his romance life, like any other hero.

Well, Babs and Dick are well-established characters that have been "will they won't they" for years. I actually don't really think we have a lot of DickBabs pandering in Nightwing. It's more of a slow burn that's mostly working because the characters already have a ton of history together, and many fans are already interested in them. It also feels very natural and the opposite of rushed.

In Tim's case, him coming out as bi and being with Bernard came out of nowhere and was handled really poorly. We literally have no idea why Tim even likes Bernard, and Bernard being a one-dimensional character that doesn't even resemble his previous self isn't helping the story.
I hope the pride stories will help establish them as a couple beyond just being "cute", since it's clear that Tim's relationship with Bernard won't be explored in Batman. It's possible we'll see something in the dark Dark crisis tie-in, but other than that, Tim doesn't really have a book to explore his "ordinary life".

[Aahz]

Barbara and Dick is also pandering in Taylor's run but nobody bats an eye because it's a straight couple.

The one is pandering to a large part of the fandom (aka fanservice) and based on the past history of the characters, the other isn't.

[Coco Loco]

In Tim's case, him coming out as bi and being with Bernard came out of nowhere and was handled really poorly. We literally have no idea why Tim even likes Bernard, and Bernard being a one-dimensional character that doesn't even resemble his previous self isn't helping the story.

I’m impressed that you can remember what Bernard’s previous self was like at all. I re-read War Games *last year* and did not remember him at all. I’m not entirely sure he’s even got one dimension. Perhaps his character will be fleshed out in an interesting way moving forward; I get that it’s an ongoing story - but it’s weird seeing Pride covers and whatnot with Bernard in them, for the same reason it’s weird when someone puts their random plus-one in a group wedding photo.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I’m impressed that you can remember what Bernard’s previous self was like at all. I re-read War Games *last year* and did not remember him at all. I’m not entirely sure he’s even got one dimension. Perhaps his character will be fleshed out in an interesting way moving forward; I get that it’s an ongoing story - but it’s weird seeing Pride covers and whatnot with Bernard in them, for the same reason it’s weird when someone puts their random plus-one in a group wedding photo.

I agree. It feels so bizarre and forced that Bernard is being pushed when there is literally nothing to him. He won't even appear in Chip's run. But like I said people seem to like white boys in a relationship.

Notice how when Dick Grayson was with Bea she only had ONE cover with Dick.

[sunofdarkchild]

Pandering and fanservice isn't inherently bad. It's only a problem when it comes at the expense of character and story. Spider-Man No Way Home is essentially 'pandering and fanservice the movie,' and it's brilliant because it gets the characters so right. Rise of Skywalker pandered to Last Jedi haters and threw in the kitchen sink with its attempts at fanservice and it was horrible because there was no story and what passed for characterization was laughable. Comics in general have a really low standard of quality the past few years, and the general quality of the pandering and fan-service has followed that negative trend. If the quality of the writing of comics as a whole improves, the quality of the writing of queer characters or issues will improve as well. I had hoped Didio leaving DC would lead to a quicker restoration of quality, but it hasn't happened yet, and those editors who ran really tight ships and made DC feel like a place that was run by professionals in the 90s are pretty much all gone now.

[Coco Loco]

I agree. It feels so bizarre and forced that Bernard is being pushed when there is literally nothing to him. He won't even appear in Chip's run. But like I said people seem to like white boys in a relationship.

Notice how when Dick Grayson was with Bea she only had ONE cover with Dick.

Fair point but Bea didn’t have much more personality than Bernard does, despite getting a ton more page time.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Fair point but Bea didn’t have much more personality than Bernard does, despite getting a ton more page time.

She did have much more of a personality than Bernard and she had way more going for her. She was a dark skinned black woman with natural black hair that was a social activist on race and poverty. She also was willing to support Dick and take risks for him even against the Joker and Court of Owls. She wanted what was best for him even if it meant losing the Dick she knew.

[Ascended]

For what it's worth, it wasn't aimed at you specifically. And I didn't mean it as a grave insult, though it may come across that way in text. Because I wouldn't automatically view being called one of "the gays" as an insult (depending on the context/tone I guess) because it would be factual. At least it's not a slur (of which we have several made for us that heterosexuals don't).

Oh I'm just busting your chops man. We've posted together for years, I know you're not trying to insult anyone.

We do need better than pandering, and Tim's case isn't perfectly executed, but sometimes pandering is all we in the LGBTQ community are afforded.

The "gays are pedophiles!" chestnut is also being trotted out again, because I guess we traveled back in time to the 1950s.

And the community deserves better than pandering. I suppose you're right, sometimes you gotta take what you can...but that bothers me greatly.

Things definitely could be better. Friggin republicans (no offense to any sane conservatives reading this, but y'alls party needs to die and rebuild itself without the hate). MLK has a quote I repeat to myself, about the moral trajectory of the universe being long, but bending towards justice. I remind myself that, not too long ago, gay marriage wasn't legal. Gay characters in media were two-dimensional caricatures when they showed up at all. But gods it doesn't seem to amount to much in the face of today's idiocy...

It's also frustrating that anything LGBTQ related gets dismissed as "pandering," and has to go through so much stricter criteria before it can matter. It's also frequently the non-queer members of the audience who dismiss it as pandering, even among new characters who simply exist in the background (superhero media or not), without any clear example of what constitutes pandering and not. We deserve better than half assed pandering, and there are diverse opinions and criticisms among the community for stuff like Tim's change, but we might as well hold onto it while still fighting for more. Every little bit helps.

I have noticed a certain segment of folks who use "pandering" to quietly decry progress, expressing their phobia in a way that doesn't immediately look like what it actually is. And yeah, every bit helps, I wouldn't want Tim's orientation to be changed (again). But there's plenty of us out there who genuinely want good stories with rich development for *everyone* regardless of whatever demographic they belong to.

For me, I figure if something like Tim coming out....if that's the only thing the character is doing, it's not a great look. For an arc, or an issue, when stuff is being established, obviously that's fine but I wouldn't want a character who's only hook is being straight, and I assume the LBGT community wants characters who have more to offer than being LBGT too. If all we get is "look at their orientation!" I tend to think it's pandering.

Honestly DC has more than enough LGBT characters at this point, the main problem is not a lack of LGBT characters, but a lack of popularity of these characters.

True. And not just with this community either; if you weren't a big deal at DC fifty years ago, odds are you're not gonna be a big deal now. But that's a wider problem than just representation, that goes into the stagnant direct market and DC's failure to successfully push characters who weren't already carrying the company.

Barbara and Dick is also pandering in Taylor's run but nobody bats an eye because it's a straight couple.

Oh I beg to differ; plenty of people seem to be taking issue with Taylor's Nightwing run. Too much objectification (the covers get a lot of flak), too much fanservice....bitching about DickBabs and Taylor's run specifically is like it's whole little subcommunity.

Granted, there's apparently more noise around Tim, and part of that certainly is homophobia...but that's a new development too, a sizeable change to his character, while DickBabs has been a thing for decades.

[Aahz]

I have noticed a certain segment of folks who use "pandering" to quietly decry progress, expressing their phobia in a way that doesn't immediately look like what it actually is. And yeah, every bit helps, I wouldn't want Tim's orientation to be changed (again). But there's plenty of us out there who genuinely want good stories with rich development for *everyone* regardless of whatever demographic they belong to.

If the whole thing is just a gimmick, to get some news articles and to drive up the sales for one issue, and the character basically just ending up being completely defined by being "the gay one", it doesn't help.

Because if they do that often enough (which they likely have) the default assumption for lots of readers is just that this change will not result in comics worth buying.