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  1. #1
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    Default I dislike the handling and reaction of Tim's relationships

    Meghan Fitzmartin is writing a YJ issues and fans on twitter are reacting about potential timkon, however, I dislike this a lot cuz why is Meghan ignoring timsteph but might be pushing for Timkon
    She is just writing fanfic and it shows

    People are clamering for timkon despite tim having a relation but I know if it was for timsteph, they'd have a meltdown
    and folks erasing tim and stephanie but keeping him and connor in tact....like what?

  2. #2
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowSJG View Post
    Meghan Fitzmartin is writing a YJ issues and fans on twitter are reacting about potential timkon, however, I dislike this a lot cuz why is Meghan ignoring timsteph but might be pushing for Timkon
    She is just writing fanfic and it shows

    People are clamering for timkon despite tim having a relation but I know if it was for timsteph, they'd have a meltdown
    and folks erasing tim and stephanie but keeping him and connor in tact....like what?
    DC isn't going to pry apart Tim and Bernard for a while.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, SiKtC, Catwoman, Nightwing, Titans, Godzilla, Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin, Brave and the Bold, No/One, Kill your Darlings, and Deviant.
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  3. #3
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    I mean she is a CW writer so she probably is an expert on pandering to twitter/tumblr......

  4. #4
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    The retconning of Tim's sexual orientation and values is atrocious and proves that writer doesn't care about the character. She cares about advancing her politics and using beloved characters as a canvas. And pandering to the people who can't comprehend that fact that people of the same gender can be friends.

  5. #5
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    I think with Jon coming out, having Kon come out doesn't really make sense business wise, that would under cut both characters.

  6. #6
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    To me the whole episode is the final nail in the coffin of Tim's character. He was a great character before 2004. But after DC killed off his dad, got rid of his supporting cast, and then got rid of his history in the Nu52, he lost almost everything that made him compelling. He should have been erased with the 2011 reboot, and his only function was to make the 5-year timeline even stupider than it already was. His relationship with Steph was the last vestige of the good character he used to be, and now that's gone. He now has no reason to exist. He is 'the gay Robin' and nothing more. There is nothing more to his character. If DC had done this without killing his father, without erasing his history and personality, it would be a different story. Pre-Nu52 he still had a character to salvage, and something like this could have worked then. But the sad thing is if he was still the good character he used to be I don't think DC would have done this. Tim was chosen because he had become a waste of space long ago, because he's the character who has so little presence it wouldn't change anything if he disappeared tomorrow and was never referenced again.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    None of that made Tim a more interesting character and it all feels lazy.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    DC isn't going to pry apart Tim and Bernard for a while.
    Which is unfortunate. A year's almost passed and he's nothing but a Gary Stu prop. They always are.

  9. #9
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowSJG View Post
    Meghan Fitzmartin is writing a YJ issues and fans on twitter are reacting about potential timkon, however, I dislike this a lot cuz why is Meghan ignoring timsteph but might be pushing for Timkon
    She is just writing fanfic and it shows
    She is being paid to write an official DC Comic. That is not fanfic unless you count anything outside the original creators work, in which case Tim is nothing but Robin "fanfic" as Dick is the only "real" Robin.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowSJG View Post
    People are clamering for timkon despite tim having a relation but I know if it was for timsteph, they'd have a meltdown
    and folks erasing tim and stephanie but keeping him and connor in tact....like what?
    Tim and Connor have always had a more interesting relationship than Tim and Steph. Their friendship was smooth and rarely changed (except to get stronger). They have common goals and interests as heroes and a genuine connection shown by Tim's extreme reactions when he died.

    Robin/Spoiler was kind of fun in the beginning and early Robin issues but wore thin real quick. Tim and Steph were actually apart far more than together since the beginning and were often fighting. Tim wouldn't even sleep with Steph as he didn't feel it was right*. He didn't even tell Steph he was Robin and when she died Tim took her place to become Robin again.

    Tim/Steph was never some great romance, it's just a thing you remember.

    *this is due to Dixon's conservative views but can be read very differently.

    Personally, I think the most interesting dynamic would be for Tim to want more from Connor but Connor to be straight. They have a conversation, accept each other's viewpoints and remain great friends.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Robin/Spoiler was kind of fun in the beginning and early Robin issues but wore thin real quick. Tim and Steph were actually apart far more than together since the beginning and were often fighting. Tim wouldn't even sleep with Steph as he didn't feel it was right*.
    That was iirc Adriana not Steph, I don't think that this came ever really up between them before Dixon left.

  11. #11
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    That was iirc Adriana not Steph, I don't think that this came ever really up between them before Dixon left.
    I thought it was both, but you may well be right. It's been a long time since I re-read that whole run (I struggle to continue after about 40 issues).
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    She is being paid to write an official DC Comic. That is not fanfic unless you count anything outside the original creators work, in which case Tim is nothing but Robin "fanfic" as Dick is the only "real" Robin.



    Tim and Connor have always had a more interesting relationship than Tim and Steph. Their friendship was smooth and rarely changed (except to get stronger). They have common goals and interests as heroes and a genuine connection shown by Tim's extreme reactions when he died.

    Robin/Spoiler was kind of fun in the beginning and early Robin issues but wore thin real quick. Tim and Steph were actually apart far more than together since the beginning and were often fighting. Tim wouldn't even sleep with Steph as he didn't feel it was right*. He didn't even tell Steph he was Robin and when she died Tim took her place to become Robin again.

    Tim/Steph was never some great romance, it's just a thing you remember.

    *this is due to Dixon's conservative views but can be read very differently.

    Personally, I think the most interesting dynamic would be for Tim to want more from Connor but Connor to be straight. They have a conversation, accept each other's viewpoints and remain great friends.

    Everything you said is a huge misrepresentation about a lot of things which makes me think you haven't really read about both Tim and Steph and got most of your info from Twitter/Tumblr. But let's begin:

    1. Tim didn't sleep with Ariana not Steph. And it wasn't because it didn't feel right. It was because he wasn't sure he or her were ready for it. And considering how she just recovered from being nearly raped and wanted to sleep with Tim as a way to forget it it's a good thing. Tim actually took her feelings into account as he wanted to make sure if she was ready or not and doing so allowed her to confide in him regarding her experience which strenghtened their relationship more than sex out of pressure would. Dixon sucks and is a piece of **** no doubt about it but given how at the time he was writing Robin he also wrote Nightwing fighting off neo-nazis and white supremacist and calling them out, I'd say he wasn't always a conservative shithheel, but a conservative who at the time wasn't such a bad guy, before slipping off. Anyway the point of the story with Ariana was that you shouldn't feel pressured into having sex and it's okay if you're not ready and it's important to take into account your partner's feelings for sex as well. Trying to pass off the story as proof Tim is not into girls or was always bi not only misses the point but promotes a very toxicv view of teenage boys that they must jump at sex without a second thought and have to want to lose their virginity so quickly as proof of their heterosexuality. Tim in many ways represents a view of teenage boys that was against toxic masculinity through wanting an emotional connection before sex and being respectful towards women. In light of things such as metoo such an approach is how we should teach teenage boys how to behave and trying to pass it off as doubt of his heterosexuality feels gross.

    2. Tim didn't tell Steph he was Robin but that was because he didn't want to endanger Bruce's identity and Bruce was not okay with him revealing his identity. She did find out because Bruce told her. While Tim was mad, he was mad at Bruce not Stephanie as Bruce only did it to manipulate them both. He angrily told Bruce that he wanted to tell Steph so badly but withheld due to his sake and Bruce telling her didn't take into his account how he felt about Steph and actually proclaimed to Bruce (and her she was there at the time) that he loved her and Bruce took away something that would've been an important stepping stone for both of them. He then apologized to Steph for not telling her as he realized he was asking too much and told her he wanted to tell her badly and he doesn't blame her at all.

    The always fighting thing is not true as they had a relatively healthy relationship and most of their 'fights' were friendly teasing and stuff. You are aware when Steph was pregnant, Tim helped her a lot. He took her to lamaze class despite not being able to tell her his identity and while he advised her on adoption he said at the end it was her decision to make and he wouldn't force her and would support her no matter she chose. When his family moved to Keystone before he left he said goodbye to her and mentioned how leaving her would be the hardest thing he had do more more than leaving Bruce, Dick and Barbara. He also promised he would be there for her when she gave birth and when she went into labour despite being in Keystone and thousands of miles away he still got there like he promised he would (with help from Wally West) even though it got him into deep trouble with his dad and stayed with her until she safely gave birth and was recovering.

    There was also the fact that after the identity reveal things were smooth and stable between them. Steph made it clear to Tim many times she would love him even if he wasn't Robin when he confided in her when he was thinking about quiting. She later on confided the time she was almost sexually assaulted as a child to him and throughout the experience while Tim made it clear he was angry at the guy who tried to do that for her and wanted to kill him, he put his perspective on the back burner to fully hear her story and make it about her and her alone and when she thought she ruined their date by bringing it up, he reassured her that she didn't and wanted to know everything she went through and experienced as that is what it meant to be a couple.

    Not to mention how he DID kill someone for nearly killing Steph. Though the guy was a zombie at the time who could revive himself, Tim didn't know and proceeded to beat him to death with his barehands until he had to revive again.

    Anyway they have a lot of interesting and deep moments so saying Tim and Conner were more interesting is very contested. With regards to Steph's death while true we didn't see Tim mourn much that was due to DC's editorial (and misogynistic) hate towards Steph which did things like blame her for her death and stuff. In the chances we got to see Tim reflect upon it, we learn how he was furious at Bruce for not letting him know she was in danger Here is the quote

    "During my visit it took every bit of discipline I could conjure to keep from asking Bruce that one terrible question I'm stone cold certain our relationship can't survive. 'What happened in those last moments between you and Stephanie, and why did you keep me from being there?'

    He actually left Bruce to go in Bludhaven for a while due to it. And when she returned the first thing he did was give her a passionate kiss.

    Were Tim and Steph perfect? No, no relationship is, but trying to just brush it off "as something you just remember" is a lie and huge disservice to both characters as it was a foundational aspect of both characters. Because you see I actually READ almost the whole Robin 1993 run so I know what I'm talking about

    As for Conner I think people really overstate things. Yeah he was his best friend but many times it was made clear they thought of each other as brothers and they were no closer than Dick and Wally or say Bruce and Clark. People like to cite the clone thing but aside from being a bad story all around, it can be chalked up to Tim losing a lot of people and Conner being the most recent and the only one who could viably be brought back without mystic stuff. When he has a chance to use mystic stuff he thinks about bringing back his parents and Steph. And a possible future shows when he was succesful in bringing back Conner, he also cloned Bart after his death as well.

    Not to mention other heroes have had extreme reactions when their best friends have died. Like when Bruce 'died' in Final Crisis, Clark couldn't sleep for days, and when he saw Dick take up the mantle, he thought he was violating Bruce's memory and wishes and got so angry to the point that he almost used his heat vision on Dick (the adopted son of his best friend) to get him to give up the mantle. It was also said in the same story that while Bruce mistrusted others, he loved Clark.

    And you could say Bruce and Clark have had smoother runs than Bruce and Selina and Talia or much of his romances but that can be chalked up to how in general there is a different vibe to friendships rather than romances. There are many things that are easier and smoother with friendships than romances due to the former having less of an emotional burden than the latter.
    Last edited by NOCTPHOENIX; 05-16-2022 at 06:54 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    I thought it was both, but you may well be right. It's been a long time since I re-read that whole run (I struggle to continue after about 40 issues).
    I might be wrong, it has been quite some time since I read that run.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I might be wrong, it has been quite some time since I read that run.
    You are right. I re-read most of the run recently.

  15. #15
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Everything you said is a huge misrepresentation about a lot of things which makes me think you haven't really read about both Tim and Steph and got most of your info from Twitter/Tumblr.
    After that cracking opening I'm not reading the rest of your dissertation, but 2 things:

    1, different readers can have different interpretations.
    2, not everyone who disagrees with you "didn't read the books and got info from social media".

    Btw, I have read and watched every single piece of DC released media containing Tim and Steph. I love both characters.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

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