I dislike the handling and reaction of Tim's relationships

[Aahz]

With regards to Steph's death while true we didn't see Tim mourn much that was due to DC's editorial (and misogynistic) hate towards Steph which did things like blame her for her death and stuff.

Thing is also that Cass (who moved with Tim to Blüdheaven) also didn't really mourn more than Tim. And Steph was her best friend.

It was really just how bad this death was handled.

And in Case of Kon, most of that happend iirc in Teen Titans, so in a different book by an other creative team with a different editorial.

[sunofdarkchild]

The Young Justice Tim and the Bat-books Tim always seemed like different characters. In Robin Tim was often thinking about quitting and never planned on being a vigilante his whole life, always viewing it as temporary. Meanwhile at the exact same time in YJ Tim was giving speeches about how he will continue to fight and be Robin as long as crime exists. The two attitudes were in complete contradiction to each other, and much as I like Peter David, he didn't get Tim at all and was the first to treat Tim as a mini-Bruce instead of who Tim actually was at that point.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

After that cracking opening I'm not reading the rest of your dissertation, but 2 things:

1, different readers can have different interpretations.
2, not everyone who disagrees with you "didn't read the books and got info from social media".

Btw, I have read and watched every single piece of DC released media containing Tim and Steph. I love both characters.

Okay, I admit I came across as too harsh and flippant but:

Some of your interpretations are not really not just different interpreations but blatant misrepresentations like with the whole not wanting to sleep with Ariana thing. It's not a matter of disagreement as a lot of the stuff you said was flatout wrong (saying Tim didn't want to sleep with Steph because it wasn't "right") and left out key things like the details behind her time as Robin and Tim's reaction to her death. No offence, but a lot of what you said is what the average person on twitter/tumblr who ships Timkon, Timber or other stuff says to misrepresents many things about Tim and Steph just to push the ship.

[Frontier]

The Young Justice Tim and the Bat-books Tim always seemed like different characters. In Robin Tim was often thinking about quitting and never planned on being a vigilante his whole life, always viewing it as temporary. Meanwhile at the exact same time in YJ Tim was giving speeches about how he will continue to fight and be Robin as long as crime exists. The two attitudes were in complete contradiction to each other, and much as I like Peter David, he didn't get Tim at all and was the first to treat Tim as a mini-Bruce instead of who Tim actually was at that point.

I think PAD's Tim was pretty different from Bruce even if he obviously represented someone trained by Batman. I think you can justify it that a character comes across differently in a different setting or when hanging out with different characters.

[Restingvoice]

Meghan Fitzmartin is writing a YJ issues and fans on twitter are reacting about potential timkon, however, I dislike this a lot cuz why is Meghan ignoring timsteph but might be pushing for Timkon
She is just writing fanfic and it shows

People are clamering for timkon despite tim having a relation but I know if it was for timsteph, they'd have a meltdown
and folks erasing tim and stephanie but keeping him and connor in tact....like what?

You're complaining about fans expressing what they want and then somehow think that the writer will surely follow.

I thought this is about Tim's direction, not what you think his direction is going to take or what certain group of fans are thinking.

[andersonh1]

To me the whole episode is the final nail in the coffin of Tim's character. He was a great character before 2004. But after DC killed off his dad, got rid of his supporting cast, and then got rid of his history in the Nu52, he lost almost everything that made him compelling. He should have been erased with the 2011 reboot, and his only function was to make the 5-year timeline even stupider than it already was. His relationship with Steph was the last vestige of the good character he used to be, and now that's gone. He now has no reason to exist. He is 'the gay Robin' and nothing more. There is nothing more to his character. If DC had done this without killing his father, without erasing his history and personality, it would be a different story. Pre-Nu52 he still had a character to salvage, and something like this could have worked then. But the sad thing is if he was still the good character he used to be I don't think DC would have done this. Tim was chosen because he had become a waste of space long ago, because he's the character who has so little presence it wouldn't change anything if he disappeared tomorrow and was never referenced again.

Agreed. This.

[Ascended]

The retconning of Tim's sexual orientation and values is atrocious and proves that writer doesn't care about the character. She cares about advancing her politics and using beloved characters as a canvas. And pandering to the people who can't comprehend that fact that people of the same gender can be friends.

Not sure what "values" are being betrayed here, but I do agree DC lost their grip on the character a long time ago, and making him LBGT feels more like a PR marketing move (and a desperate one at that) than a natural evolution of his character.

But I haven't read Urban Legends, or whatever book it is that Tim's sexuality has been explored in. For all I know, it's been handled carefully and well. And I'd believe that if any of the Robins are LBGT, it'd be Tim. Dude was always so concerned about what he thought he *should* be, and what other people needed from him, that he could have totally overlooked this part of himself. And the way he lost his mind after Conner's death....I was nineteen when my best friend was murdered, so I get that pain. But what Tim did, trying to clone Conner and all of that? That's well beyond the normal boundaries of friendship and brotherhood. So sure, if a Robin is LBGT I can believe it's Tim. He's self-repressed enough for it to only be coming out now. It's definitely a big swerve from his original design, but if I squint my eyes a little bit, it fits around everything decently enough for me to roll with it.

But that seems to be the only thing that is setting Tim apart right now. He hasn't successfully moved beyond the "Robin" moniker, as Dick and Jason did. No city of his own that I'm aware of. No unique role to fill. He doesn't appear to have much of anything going on these days, beyond this new boyfriend. That's a big part of why this feels so...artificial....to me. Again, maybe the whole thing has been really well told and is respecting Tim's history while moving forward. Maybe Tim is carving out a place to call his own within the mythos and the new boyfriend is just one part of it. But if so, I haven't heard, all I'm getting is "Tim's the gay Robin" and that sorta thing always feels like pandering, not representation.

Oh, has Tim decided exactly what he is yet? Last I knew he wasn't putting a label on himself. Has he said if he's gay, bi, whatever? Personally I'm hoping he's sapiosexual. Far more interesting than just being gay or bi.

[skyvolt2000]

The retconning of Tim's sexual orientation and values is atrocious and proves that writer doesn't care about the character. She cares about advancing her politics and using beloved characters as a canvas. And pandering to the people who can't comprehend that fact that people of the same gender can be friends.

Grow up PLEASE Grow up...

Funny folks continue to forget these writers can only do what editors allow them to do.

So instead of trying to attack yet another writer-might want to ask whoever the editor of those books what is Tim Drake's direction?

Sonofdarkchild summed up what is wrong with Tim-a victim of the previous era of DC's internal politics.


And it's not going to get any better because this is what has been fed to the public for almost 20 years and made worst by 10 years of New 52.

So all those trades from New 52 and Teen Titan trashing runs is what the new set of writers have been fed.


So if making Tim bi is the only thing that saves him from limbo-fans can't blame the current writers. The former era of DC is to blame along with all the hate buying and blind support of that trashing of Tim Drake and his generation.

[ClassicalComics]

Not sure what "values" are being betrayed here, but I do agree DC lost their grip on the character a long time ago.

We knew that he wanted to remain a virgin until marriage. So, he adheres to trad mores. And if that were the case and he were attracted to men too, he could just not act on it. Because he'd be attracted to women too and would think that would be the better route. Which is kind of like my choice as a Jew. I decided a long time ago that I would marry a Jewish woman. I may have found non-Jewish women attractive, but I never sought romances with them because I felt like marrying a Jewish woman would be best. And that doesn't mean I hate people in interfaith marriages.

Grow up PLEASE Grow up...

How was any of my statement juvenile or immature?

[ZuLuLu]

We knew that he wanted to remain a virgin until marriage. So, he adheres to trad mores. And if that were the case and he were attracted to men too, he could just not act on it. Because he'd be attracted to women too and would think that would be the better route. Which is kind of like my choice as a Jew. I decided a long time ago that I would marry a Jewish woman. I may have found non-Jewish women attractive, but I never sought romances with them because I felt like marrying a Jewish woman would be best. And that doesn't mean I hate people in interfaith marriages.

Tim Drake never stated that he wanted to remain a virgin until marriage, what he did say was that he wanted to wait for the right person and the right time. That could have meant marriage or it could have meant until he was an adult and could handle the consequence that comes with being sexually active. Times Tim turned them both down sexual proposal was by his first girlfriend Ariana was still dealing with a sexual assault and Rose Wilson, who was intoxicated. His long term girlfriend was someone dealing with becoming pregnant as a teen and giving up a child for adoption.

Secondly, what has been confirmed in the comics is that Tim is not religious, so I do not get why you are imposing your personal religious belief on him.

Thirdly, even though Tim is no longer a virgin but if he wanted to wait till marriage to have sex I don't see how dating a boy is stopping him from doing that.

[Ascended]

We knew that he wanted to remain a virgin until marriage. So, he adheres to trad mores. And if that were the case and he were attracted to men too, he could just not act on it. Because he'd be attracted to women too and would think that would be the better route.

You're assuming that Tim wanting to wait before having sex also means he's homophobic but that's not the case. Granted, among the church crowd those ideas tend to go hand in hand, but they're separate topics. Tim could date men and still wait for marriage.

I remember the early days, and Tim saying he wanted to wait. I don't remember if he specifically said he wanted to wait for marriage or just until he felt the time (and person) was right, but either way I'm pretty sure he lost his virginity long before the whole "LBGT" story started, so that's a non-issue.

Can someone with better recollection help me out there? Has Tim slept with anyone yet?

Tim's not a religious person, and so has no faith-based reason to think homosexuality is bad, or should be avoided. He has friends and peers who're LBGT and he's always been supportive. I can believe that Tim is so tightly wound he wouldn't realize he was LBGT until now, but the idea that he thinks it's somehow wrong? That's just not supported in any of the material that I remember, and I followed this character very closely for a very long time, until the New52 finished the job of wrecking him.

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

You're assuming that Tim wanting to wait before having sex also means he's homophobic but that's not the case. Granted, among the church crowd those ideas tend to go hand in hand, but they're separate topics. Tim could date men and still wait for marriage.

I remember the early days, and Tim saying he wanted to wait. I don't remember if he specifically said he wanted to wait for marriage or just until he felt the time (and person) was right, but either way I'm pretty sure he lost his virginity long before the whole "LBGT" story started, so that's a non-issue.

Can someone with better recollection help me out there? Has Tim slept with anyone yet?

Tim's not a religious person, and so has no faith-based reason to think homosexuality is bad, or should be avoided. He has friends and peers who're LBGT and he's always been supportive. I can believe that Tim is so tightly wound he wouldn't realize he was LBGT until now, but the idea that he thinks it's somehow wrong? That's just not supported in any of the material that I remember, and I followed this character very closely for a very long time, until the New52 finished the job of wrecking him.

I can't help, but I will add that back in the day I had this entire conversation at a store... "Time is either got no hormones, or is mature enough to be able to logically think past them... if a he is almost nonsexual* and if b then who IS ready if not a teen able to think past there hormones... does this mean he just doesn't really like her, or he just really doesn't like women sexually?"

*now I would call it asexual.

this lead to months of debate even crossing over to me coming into the store and finding others talking about it

[sunofdarkchild]

You're assuming that Tim wanting to wait before having sex also means he's homophobic but that's not the case. Granted, among the church crowd those ideas tend to go hand in hand, but they're separate topics. Tim could date men and still wait for marriage.

I remember the early days, and Tim saying he wanted to wait. I don't remember if he specifically said he wanted to wait for marriage or just until he felt the time (and person) was right, but either way I'm pretty sure he lost his virginity long before the whole "LBGT" story started, so that's a non-issue.

Can someone with better recollection help me out there? Has Tim slept with anyone yet?

Tim's not a religious person, and so has no faith-based reason to think homosexuality is bad, or should be avoided. He has friends and peers who're LBGT and he's always been supportive. I can believe that Tim is so tightly wound he wouldn't realize he was LBGT until now, but the idea that he thinks it's somehow wrong? That's just not supported in any of the material that I remember, and I followed this character very closely for a very long time, until the New52 finished the job of wrecking him.

It was heavily implied Tim and Steph were sleeping with each other during Detective Comics Rebirth. Tim showed up in her bedroom, took off his shirt, Steph told Cass to go somewhere else so she could be alone with him, they kissed, and the final image was their respective uniforms together on the floor. Before that, in Convergence Batgirl the story ended with them deciding to to sleep together and then realizing they were both too hurt from the fight to do it, so they settled for cuddling together.

[ZuLuLu]

Can someone with better recollection help me out there? Has Tim slept with anyone yet?

it was implied that Tim and Steph had sex in Tynion's Detective Comics run, but it is not 100% confirm.

Edit: see sunofdarkchild better response.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I can't help, but I will add that back in the day I had this entire conversation at a store... "Time is either got no hormones, or is mature enough to be able to logically think past them... if a he is almost nonsexual* and if b then who IS ready if not a teen able to think past there hormones... does this mean he just doesn't really like her, or he just really doesn't like women sexually?"

*now I would call it asexual.

this lead to months of debate even crossing over to me coming into the store and finding others talking about it

I think there is a different level between mature enough to not slobber over women like pieces of meat and treat them respectfully (which Tim does) and mature enough for sex.

Honestly, I really never got the vibe that Tim was not too into women as he clearly expressed attraction to them multiple times and initiated kisses/cuddles, etc. It's just that

A. He respects women and wants more than just a hot body to drool over. He wants an emotional connection and to make sure he and his partner are emotionally ready for something as big as sex.

B. He's also like Bruce in the sense of he's a work first, play later kind of guy. I mean Bruce aside from his love interests, shows a similar attitude towards girls like Tim, but people weren't saying Bruce isn't attracted to women or anything.

I think all of the Tim "isn't too into girls thing" is really based on some toxic ideas of what teenage boys should act. "A teenage boy doesn't drool over girls, jump at sex at the first call, and can control himself? Must be not into girls." I mean some people use proof of Tim not being too into girls of the time when Rose Wilson who was DRUNK trying to sleep with him and he turned her down. So not sleeping with an intoxicated woman means you are sexually into women? C'mon.......