I dislike the handling and reaction of Tim's relationships

[Frontier]

I feel like your reaction to this depends a lot on:

1) Your feelings about Tim Drake as a character.

2) Your investment in Tim and Steph's relationship.

3) Whether you saw the same perceived subtext in Tims' relationship with male friends that others did.

4) Whether you relate to Tim more as a queer character compared to as a purely straight character (and may be more invested in focusing on his queer relationship than his straight relationships).

5) Whether you just want more sexual diversity in comics in general.

[SiegePerilous02]

Oh I'm just busting your chops man. We've posted together for years, I know you're not trying to insult anyone.

The continued problems of conveying tone with text

And the community deserves better than pandering. I suppose you're right, sometimes you gotta take what you can...but that bothers me greatly.

Things definitely could be better. Friggin republicans (no offense to any sane conservatives reading this, but y'alls party needs to die and rebuild itself without the hate). MLK has a quote I repeat to myself, about the moral trajectory of the universe being long, but bending towards justice. I remind myself that, not too long ago, gay marriage wasn't legal. Gay characters in media were two-dimensional caricatures when they showed up at all. But gods it doesn't seem to amount to much in the face of today's idiocy...

No doubt about it, we're on the same page here. Lazy pandering can suck and we deserve more (EVERYONE deserves more), and it's bothersome that we have to take what we can get or risk not getting anything at all.

I have noticed a certain segment of folks who use "pandering" to quietly decry progress, expressing their phobia in a way that doesn't immediately look like what it actually is. And yeah, every bit helps, I wouldn't want Tim's orientation to be changed (again). But there's plenty of us out there who genuinely want good stories with rich development for *everyone* regardless of whatever demographic they belong to.

For me, I figure if something like Tim coming out....if that's the only thing the character is doing, it's not a great look. For an arc, or an issue, when stuff is being established, obviously that's fine but I wouldn't want a character who's only hook is being straight, and I assume the LBGT community wants characters who have more to offer than being LBGT too. If all we get is "look at their orientation!" I tend to think it's pandering.

Yes, if the company has Tim come out and don't do much else with him, it certainly seems like they are taking the lazy route to score brownie points. It doesn't help that he's the safest choice among the Robins and they've been struggling with what to do with him for a while. It'd have been far ballsier to make Dick or Jason bi instead (or in addition to). It'd be a new queer representation applied to characters that generally have more going on than Tim.

Still though, I think your definition of pandering works because it comes from a place of "Tim can still be queer, that's not the issue, we just want something substantial with it", which is fair. The homophobic under current from others who label it pandering and seem to be opposed to the idea period that we've seen around the internet is a different story

[Ascended]

The continued problems of conveying tone with text

Don't I know it. I'm sure I've come across like a right bastard at times, just because text doesn't express my screwed up sense of humor properly.

Still though, I think your definition of pandering works because it comes from a place of "Tim can still be queer, that's not the issue, we just want something substantial with it", which is fair. The homophobic under current from others who label it pandering and seem to be opposed to the idea period that we've seen around the internet is a different story

That's all I'm asking for.

Remember a few years back when Rucka was finally able to say that Wonder Woman was bi? What happened? We got like, two lines of dialogue about it, and then went back to her and Steve chasing each other around. If you missed those two lines of dialogue, you'd never know that Diana is into women too. And Steve is my preferred love interest, but if Diana is gonna be bi, treat it with more respect than that or don't do it at all.

Actually, I hold out hope that Diana will enter a poly relationship with Steve and....someone else, not sure who. Someday, maybe.

Anyway, that was pandering, and it was bullshit. I can't imagine being part of the LBGT community, hearing that Wonder Woman, one of the biggest names in fiction and a queer icon for years, was finally coming out.....for two lines of dialogue only. I'd have been SO pissed off. Hell, I was pissed off anyway.

Regarding Tim, I can see where he'd be LBGT and in the closet. I wouldn't believe that of Dick Grayson; Dick is too honest with himself and others to stay in the closet, and his love life has been too central a part of his narrative. But Tim? I can see it. But I want stories that are more than just "Tim's the gay Robin! Yaas queen!" yknow? Let his love life remain a part of his story, like it always has, but let the man take down a Kobra cult, let him lead a team again, etc.

And I say this about straight characters too. I don't want to read a romance comic. I'll happily read comics with romance in them (straight or otherwise), but I demand more than just dating drama.

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

I think there is a different level between mature enough to not slobber over women like pieces of meat and treat them respectfully (which Tim does) and mature enough for sex.

Honestly, I really never got the vibe that Tim was not too into women as he clearly expressed attraction to them multiple times and initiated kisses/cuddles, etc. It's just that

A. He respects women and wants more than just a hot body to drool over. He wants an emotional connection and to make sure he and his partner are emotionally ready for something as big as sex.

B. He's also like Bruce in the sense of he's a work first, play later kind of guy. I mean Bruce aside from his love interests, shows a similar attitude towards girls like Tim, but people weren't saying Bruce isn't attracted to women or anything.

I think all of the Tim "isn't too into girls thing" is really based on some toxic ideas of what teenage boys should act. "A teenage boy doesn't drool over girls, jump at sex at the first call, and can control himself? Must be not into girls." I mean some people use proof of Tim not being too into girls of the time when Rose Wilson who was DRUNK trying to sleep with him and he turned her down. So not sleeping with an intoxicated woman means you are sexually into women? C'mon.......

you quoted me but then seemed to go off on a tangent not about what I said... I said 1 of the 2 options was 'not into women at all(sexually... not didn't think they were cute or something)' and the 2nd was didn't like HER that much. because the hormonal response and control seems to point toward the two options

[NOCTPHOENIX]

you quoted me but then seemed to go off on a tangent not about what I said... I said 1 of the 2 options was 'not into women at all(sexually... not didn't think they were cute or something)' and the 2nd was didn't like HER that much. because the hormonal response and control seems to point toward the two options

And my response showed the alternatives to your options. Also using the Ariana incident as proof of your two options misses the entire point of the scene.

[ClassicalComics]

If we're beholden exactly to what the character was created as then he should still have both his parents.

He should indeed.

[ayanestar]

They should have made TimKon canon and given them their own comic series. It would have sold like hot cakes.

[SiegePerilous02]

They should have made TimKon canon and given them their own comic series. It would have sold like hot cakes.

They should have.

They wouldn't because DC are cowards, but it's not like much else is going on with Kon anyway and I doubt Kon/Cassie is anywhere near as popular. They might as well have gone where the money is.

[Frontier]

They should have.

They wouldn't because DC are cowards, but it's not like much else is going on with Kon anyway and I doubt Kon/Cassie is anywhere near as popular. They might as well have gone where the money is.

But I like KonCassie...

[Psy-lock]

But I like KonCassie...

Then make them a trouple. She dated them both anyway

[Frontier]

Then make them a trouple. She dated them both anyway

That seems like people's go-to solution to most relationship drama .

[Jackalope89]

That seems like people's go-to solution to most relationship drama .

I've been saying for years to make Dick, Babs, and Star a throuple, but nooo.

Anyway, as someone whom is pretty well neutral on Tim overall (before and after the coming out), in that I don't hate him, nor am I really a fan (though BTAS is Jason in all but name, fight me), a few people have pretty well said how I feel in that the way was poorly done. His revelation and subsequent break-up with Steph were sudden and off-screen, and suddenly this background character is a main LI.

This could have, and should have been done far better than it was.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I've been saying for years to make Dick, Babs, and Star a throuple, but nooo.

Anyway, as someone whom is pretty well neutral on Tim overall (before and after the coming out), in that I don't hate him, nor am I really a fan (though BTAS is Jason in all but name, fight me), a few people have pretty well said how I feel in that the way was poorly done. His revelation and subsequent break-up with Steph were sudden and off-screen, and suddenly this background character is a main LI.

This could have, and should have been done far better than it was.

Twitter and Tumblr don't seem to care and are going gaga over this.

[Jackalope89]

Twitter and Tumblr don't seem to care and are going gaga over this.

Twitter and Tumblr have worse records than a clock blinking 88:88.

[classyjazzy]

im just curious why it's being made such a big deal. okay, hes bi, great. yeah, they messed up with not mentioning him and steph, but it's not like he cant get back with her in the future. it's honestly weird how many people are complaining about pandering after decades of straight cis people being "pandered" to, if we're going to use it that way. it doesnt make him any different than he is before, he just also happens to like men too