Echo

[achilles]

So then, having seen your reviews, what's your overall opinion of the show on say a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being perfect and 1 being perfectly awful?

[MichaelC]

spoilers:

I'm just starting episode three as I am typing this, but so far the show has kind of dragged. There have been hints of something interesting in a revenge/mob story kind of way, but parsed out too slowly for a mini-series. And I cringe at the mystical elements. Why can't she just have photographic reflexes like her comicbook version? Why does she have to have mystical powers inherited from her ancestors? I find myself doing that cringing heavy sigh whenever something mystical happens with her.

end of spoilers

[achilles]

spoilers:

I'm just starting episode three as I am typing this, but so far the show has kind of dragged. There have been hints of something interesting in a revenge/mob story kind of way, but parsed out too slowly for a mini-series. And I cringe at the mystical elements. Why can't she just have photographic reflexes like her comicbook version? Why does she have to have mystical powers inherited from her ancestors? I find myself doing that cringing heavy sigh whenever something mystical happens with her.

end of spoilers

Because the showrunner found the comic book version "lame". Not sure if it's a great reason, but it is a reason, I suppose.

[MichaelC]

Because the showrunner found the comic book version "lame". Not sure if it's a great reason, but it is a reason, I suppose.

Well it feels like they've turned her into Mulan. And not the cool Mulan from the cartoon movie. The lame live-action Mulan. I went into this expecting a "Kill Bill" type of character in a cool revenge/mafia story. Instead I've been given the poor man's version OF the poor man's version of Mulan. I'm getting more bored by the minute, and I am not at all sure that I will stick around for episodes four and five.

[j9ac9k]

So then, having seen your reviews, what's your overall opinion of the show on say a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being perfect and 1 being perfectly awful?

I'd say 5 - perfectly mid. I think it really could've been a 2-hr movie - take the money from the train job and put it into good John Wick, Jack Reacher type of grounded fight choreo. Ditch the mysticism, tone down the supporting characters and it could've been a tighter story of Maya bringing big town violence to a small town rather than stretching it out to 5 eps where it didn't feel like it there was a story at all.

[kidfresh512]

I'd say 5 - perfectly mid. I think it really could've been a 2-hr movie - take the money from the train job and put it into good John Wick, Jack Reacher type of grounded fight choreo. Ditch the mysticism, tone down the supporting characters and it could've been a tighter story of Maya bringing big town violence to a small town rather than stretching it out to 5 eps where it didn't feel like it there was a story at all.

I kind of agree. This works better when the mysticism was toned down. The more they leaned into it the hoakier it got to me. In an Iron Fist type show the mysticism worked for me to explain the powers. Or a Shang Chi/ Black Panther. Here I just dont think it was needed the way they developed it.

I appreciate the Choctaw heritage, and culture and if that is part of their actual heritage and stories I like knowing that seeing a bit of it. But, the execution imo would have worked better as not so literal. They could have used the ancestors helping you and being a part of you in a less literal and more hey you are not alone let's go willpower type of way. Not magic and enhanced abilities.

Its missing clear cut clearly defined goals. Queenpin? What is that how are you thinking of getting to that what's the gameplan?

On a positive note tho they absolutely made the right move dropping it all at the same time. This is not a wait a week type show. People would drop out before the end. I dont want to make it sound like it is awful. I enjoyed parts of it, and I can see how if they switched things up some and had more of a focus it could have been a lot better.

[j9ac9k]

I kind of agree. This works better when the mysticism was toned down. The more they leaned into it the hoakier it got to me. In an Iron Fist type show the mysticism worked for me to explain the powers. Or a Shang Chi/ Black Panther. Here I just dont think it was needed the way they developed it.

This may not be an appropriate parallel, but imagine if Daredevil was suddenly bestowed with Jesus powers because he's Catholic.

But yeah, especially since there was no indication of her having powers in "Hawkeye." And the show had been promoted as having more brutal, grounded fight scenes, so giving her powers at the climax (as well as her female family members for two seconds) just undermined that, draining any drama from the final fight when she goes full Rey Skywalker and just has to throw a few super powered punches. Compare that to the fight scene in the first ep and it's a downgrade.(the fight scene in the roller rink was pretty decent) I liked that her character fought and struggled to overcome her adversities - it made her really sympathetic and impressive. Ancestors imparting powers on her makes it less so for me.

[Albert1981]

I'm wondering if this series actually makes Fisk into a threat. From what I understand, Kingpin was pretty tough in the Marvel Netflix shows. I think the Multiverse Saga was damaged because Kang was defeated so many times. If Wilson loses a lot as well, that won't make him a street-level Thanos. I sympathize with Feige's team "going mystical" with their characters, however. The MCU has NEVER been a street-level universe. I've always preferred the tech stuff anyways and I think Marvel Studios feels the same way. I don't understand why so many fans are against Daredevil/Punisher/Kingpin using tech. I think it would be great. If I wanna see street-level heroes/anti-heroes, I'd rather watch a Death Wish or Dirty Harry movie.

[achilles]

For what it's worth, not much IMO, RT's critics score is the second lowest in MCU TV history, behind only Secret Invasion. IMO though, it's far too easy to game these, so take that with a grain of salt.

[ZeroBG82]

Its missing clear cut clearly defined goals.

I don't agree with this. While the series didn't have Maya come out and say "This is what I'm after" it was absolutely clear what her goal was at the beginning of the series: to hurt the people who hurt her. She has no larger goal than that. She's an angry child, lashing out with violence to mask her own pain. It's a bit Frank Castle, but it's a lot more clearly directed at Fisk and his empire than the vague, broad swathes of criminality that Castle murders.

[Nathaniel Gray]

So the only thing you need to get a leg up on Echo is to wave a pack of hot chocolate in her face? The power change defeats the purpose of her name.

[kidfresh512]

I don't agree with this. While the series didn't have Maya come out and say "This is what I'm after" it was absolutely clear what her goal was at the beginning of the series: to hurt the people who hurt her. She has no larger goal than that. She's an angry child, lashing out with violence to mask her own pain. It's a bit Frank Castle, but it's a lot more clearly directed at Fisk and his empire than the vague, broad swathes of criminality that Castle murders.

In a way I kind of agree thinking again. So she has a plan with the train and Armory. Rock n Roll with that. Then they kind of just let all further planning go because immediately its Skate rink hijinks and then oh he's not dead sign language contact lenses and needless ancestor magic.

As said above we saw enough of Echo in Hawkeye and what 2-3 episodes here without ancestor power up to see the jarring unnecessary differences. She was already unique as a fighter, the choreography and her execution in the non powered scenes was already impressive.

As soon as Grandma started throwing hands I was done. They should have kept it more revenge, gritty, empire building, tearing apart Kingpins legacy. It would have worked far better.

[Phoenix Raptor]

Watched it all last night. From the trailer, I expected something really hard-hitting, in the same vein as the Netflix series'... instead, I got something that I personally found quite difficult to get into and enjoy.

Fisk was an absolute badass in DD. Even when he was getting pounded, he was still a serious opponent. But here... here he was largely a cuddly uncle with no real teeth and the more unnerving villain was the dodgy sheriff from I Spit On Your Grave. A waste, IMO.

DD was spoilers:

a flashback and done in very short time in 1 episode.

end of spoilers I expected and hoped for a little more than that.

spoilers:

Mystical powers, no handprint (I know they alluded to the handprint in the Hawkeye series) and a Buffy-esque "I'll give everyone the power!" finale took me out of this show.

end of spoilers It could've been so much more but I found it very underwhelming, to be honest. The trailer suggested it was going to be some sort of return to the grit of the Netflix shows but, for me at least, it was nothing of the sort.

If this was released weekly, I doubt I'd have got to the end of it.

[j9ac9k]

spoilers:

Mystical powers, no handprint (I know they alluded to the handprint in the Hawkeye series) and a Buffy-esque "I'll give everyone the power!" finale took me out of this show.

end of spoilers

Not only that, but the way they just had to include the two male characters outside as well just so everyone could have a heroic moment (and it was literally a moment) even though it made no sense.

We were sold on it being like the Netflix shows, but it was more like "Ms Marvel" or "Blue Beetle" but with Native Americans getting their turn at bat. What's frustrating is that it was almost pretty good.

[j9ac9k]

SPOILERS
-- Biscuits is such a convenient character that just helps out of nowhere. Far from the first of this type, but it's lazy writing. I wonder if there's an actual reason they got a truck with the steering wheel on the other side.

Okay, I saw one one of the YT reviews say it's because it's a mail truck and it was so the driver could be close to the mailboxes. Never knew that.