Echo

[phonogram12]

I'm not saying she wasn't raised with love. I'm just saying that her father along with Fisk certainly helped put her on that path.

[Frontier]

I'm not saying she wasn't raised with love. I'm just saying that her father along with Fisk certainly helped put her on that path.

That's probably true for a lot of kids, whether their parents intend for it or not.

Although when some vigilante kills your dad, that probably helps too.

[j9ac9k]

I'm not saying she wasn't raised with love. I'm just saying that her father along with Fisk certainly helped put her on that path.

Fisk might have had that intention, but not her father. I believe it was her father's murder that set her on a path her father never wanted. (and yeah, Clint was let off the hook too easily imo. Just because Fisk put her father in his murderous path, doesn't absolve him from the fact that he was on a rampaging murderous path. It's my one big gripe about the show ... well, that and the whole watch McGuffin made zero sense)

[Frontier]

Fisk might have had that intention, but not her father. I believe it was her father's murder that set her on a path her father never wanted. (and yeah, Clint was let off the hook too easily imo. Just because Fisk put her father in his murderous path, doesn't absolve him from the fact that he was on a rampaging murderous path. It's my one big gripe about the show ... well, that and the whole watch McGuffin made zero sense)

Clint was basically the Punisher if he got to get his family back and walk away from being the Punisher with very little tangible consequences and a peppy young girl who was totally okay with that .

[j9ac9k]

Clint was basically the Punisher if he got to get his family back and walk away from being the Punisher with very little tangible consequences and a peppy young girl who was totally okay with that .

Ironically, the Punisher did get a peppy young girl in the second season of his show which lead him to embrace his murderous path. (he knew not to let her be his sidekick though... so Frank is a better person than Clint?!? That can't be right...)

[phonogram12]

I see what you guys are saying, but at the same time, I don't really see anyone holding Natasha to those standards as she undoubtedly left at least a few children orphans as well. Hell, Thor's freely admitted to killing thousands in combat as well.

[Frontier]

I see what you guys are saying, but at the same time, I don't really see anyone holding Natasha to those standards as she undoubtedly left at least a few children orphans as well. Hell, Thor's freely admitted to killing thousands in combat as well.

And the Guardians have probably killed tons of people, and the likelihood they all deserved it is unlikely, Nebula was an accomplice to Ronan and helped kill a bunch of Nova Corps. officers, etc.

The MCU just tries to use humor and redemptive arcs to move rather than dwell on it.

It only feels more relevant to Echo because a "hero" killing her father was central to her origin story and part of the plot of the show she debuted in.

[j9ac9k]

I see what you guys are saying, but at the same time, I don't really see anyone holding Natasha to those standards as she undoubtedly left at least a few children orphans as well.

Natasha's whole thing was that she held herself accountable for the lives she took. (too much red in her ledger) And she ultimately sacrificed her own life to atone. So... there's that.

[phonogram12]

Natasha's whole thing was that she held herself accountable for the lives she took. (too much red in her ledger) And she ultimately sacrificed her own life to atone. So... there's that.

True, but prior to that no one really raised a fuss, but I digress.

[chicago_bastard]

True, but prior to that no one really raised a fuss, but I digress.

Prior to that she dedicated her life fully to being a hero and trying to do good to atone for her past sins. Even after the snap when all the other OG Avengers gave up she still went on trying to be a hero. Clint on the other hand came back after his killing spree to being a hero for what seems like five days, mostly driven by the rather selfish motive to bring his family back, and then immediately retired to live happily with his family.

So I guess most people don't raise a fuss because they see a slight difference in dedication to atoning for their mistakes between these two.

[Frontier]

From what I remember he didn't even really apologize or reflect on what he did to Maya, he basically just told her they had both been used.

[phonogram12]

IDK, I'd say being a key figure in bringing back half of life in all of the universe is a bit of atonement, but maybe that's just me.

And as much as I love Echo (the MCU version more than the comic book one, admittedly), let's not pretend she's some sort of innocent lamb or anything, seeing as she was every bit as willing to murder Kate for no other reason than she was in her way.

[Frontier]

IDK, I'd say being a key figure in bringing back half of life in all of the universe is a bit of atonement, but maybe that's just me.

And as much as I love Echo (the MCU version more than the comic book one, admittedly), let's not pretend she's some sort of innocent lamb or anything, seeing as she was every bit as willing to murder Kate for no other reason than she was in her way.

Maybe it just didn't feel like atonement because he was doing it for his family's sake and didn't feel guilt for all the lives he had taken (because they were criminals so it's okay to kill them) and that didn't really come up much in the show either. Like he was more bothered by Natasha's death than what he did as Ronin. And Kate just kind of brushed it off.

I don't think anyone's saying Maya was innocent so much as her beef with Clint was legitimate.

[phonogram12]

Maybe it just didn't feel like atonement because he was doing it for his family's sake and didn't feel guilt for all the lives he had taken (because they were criminals so it's okay to kill them) and that didn't really come up much in the show either. Like he was more bothered by Natasha's death than what he did as Ronin. And Kate just kind of brushed it off.

Kate brushed it off because he legit helped save the planets at least three times. And not to be callous, but Maya's father chose that life. He chose to work with someone like Wilson Fisk. You can't expect to roll around with pigs and not get dirty. Maya may not like it, but this is exactly what happened.

I don't think anyone's saying Maya was innocent so much as her beef with Clint was legitimate.

And her beef with Kate wasn't. So if every character was to get their comeuppance, Maya would certainly be on that list as well.

[Frontier]

Kate brushed it off because he legit helped save the planets at least three times. And not to be callous, but Maya's father chose that life. He chose to work with someone like Wilson Fisk. You can't expect to roll around with pigs and not get dirty. Maya may not like it, but this is exactly what happened.

I mean, that comes off like saying it's totally okay what he did just because the people he happened to do it to were criminals who had it coming to them and that counts as justice, especially if the person who did it gets a "Free Pass" because he saved the world in broad daylight multiple times and people are none the wiser that he was basically a vigilante serial killer.

The Ronin stuff just gets messier ethically the more you think about it and they weren't able to properly unpack it in the show in my opinion.

And her beef with Kate wasn't. So if every character was to get their comeuppance, Maya would certainly be on that list as well.

Well, yeah, in the interest of people serving justice for their crimes, totally.