Yavanna vs Ennoia

[MichaelC]

Yavanna from Tolkienverse vs Ennoia the Gangrel Antedeluvian

[Muadib]

Last i remember from Time of Judgment, Ennoia had used Protean 10, sunk to the Earth's core and melded with it. Any Gangrel anywhere using Earth Meld could feel her presence at some level. She ostensibly had control of the the entire planet's mass iirc.

Feats for Yavanna to compare with a planetary scale mass manipulator?

[Sharpandpointies]

She is one of the heavy lifters in wars that shake the world and reshape its surface. She has control in dominion over all of the animals and plants of the world basically. This isn’t on Ennoia’s level…. However, Ennoia can’t hurt her if Yavanna shucks off her body. Also, killing her body does something between squat and zip to her.

I call this one basically a draw.

[Muadib]

She is one of the heavy lifters in wars that shake the world and reshape its surface. She has control in dominion over all of the animals and plants of the world basically. This isn’t on Ennoia’s level…. However, Ennoia can’t hurt her if Yavanna shucks off her body. Also, killing her body does something between squat and zip to her.

I call this one basically a draw.

Thats pretty interesting, that Yavanna controls animals. The other two disciplines Ennoia is assumed to have at 10 is Fortitude, meaning effective invulnerability to all but Bane Damage, and Animalism at 10.

Animalism allows for animal control, 10 means its continent scale at least. There's also a psychic type attack in animalism that damages a target with their own Beast, but i doubt it applies to Yavanna.

The other things that occur to me, is we dont really know what other powers Ennoia has developed. Auspex and Dominate would give her potent psychic attack abilities at high levels, enough to harm even spirit beings. Any Thaumaturgy would help there too. But we dont really know to my knowledge what other powers she has besides her clan disciplines.

Lastly if Yavanna is as a Valar, an agent of a Higher Power, namely Eru, could she invoke some kind of True Faith effect? If thats possible, she could very well take Ennoia, since no level of Fortitude protects against the Banes of a Cainite's existence but temporarily.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yavanna seems to be more about the plants and growing things on first look, but creatures like animals are still linked to her - it's her who refers to them as Olvar and Kelvar (things that are rooted versus things that move), both are under her dominion, and there are lines in Silmarillion like 'Yeah, at this point we have plants, but nothing like singing birds yet, because Yavanna was holding that stuff back.' She was also responsible for putting them all to sleep (animals and plants) while there was no light upon the world (and did).

So...she does kind of operate on a sort-of planetary level when it comes to stuff like 'plants and animals'. Even if we could say that Animalism worked on her (it really wouldn't - she's a spirit of vast, divine power, not a living thing, so trying to mess around with her 'beast' is simply going to poop out because she's lacking in such), the level of control she possesses would to me indicate that Yavanna could contest anything based on Animalism Ennoia could manage.

It's worth speculating what other disciplines Ennoia has (I reffed VtM for about ten years and have tons of the first and second edition books, so I'm good with all of that), but we're in an area where nothing but level 10 stuff is really going to be worth a whole lot against Yavanna - again, she's one of the Valar. Worse, she's one of the Aratar - the Exalted Ones (ha, White Wolf Crossover) - who are considered to be the really heavy-lifters of the Valar (outside of Tulkas, who showed up late and whose power boils down to 'Stronk'). And even among the Aratar, she's like...fourth or fifth out of eight (depending on how we stack her up against her husband), not at all at the bottom. Ennoia's 'Clan' disciplines are valid, but she doesn't have any other level 10's, so...I'm iffy on any other stuff helping much.

Basically she's not only one of the heavy lifters, she's certainly nowhere near the weakest of the group that was the frontline in a war that shakes the planet, mangles continents, that kind of thing. One would need somewhere around a level 10 discipline to justify it working on an angelic spirit of such power, in my opinion, given the truly vast gulf between Level 9 and Level 10.

As for the True Faith, I'm not 100% sure. It doesn't actually look like it's something that holy spirits have - rather, it's kind of a human thing (not familiar with current editions). I would be reluctant to just allow Yavanna to have this and use it. I mean, if she got her hands on a Silmaril, I'd be all for saying 'that gem bakes the hell out of Ennoia' because yeah, it's holy and has actual feats for messing up dark creatures AND contains the light of what passed for the 'sun' in Arda for a time. But she doesn't have a Silmaril, and just because her power is considered holy (and she does do stuff flat-out stated in the text as holy, like work on the fruit and flower that become the sun and the moon) I don't feel it would automatically qualify as 'true faith'.

Hm.

This is an interesting one, because we have a couple of beings here we can actually somewhat qualify in terms of the power, and it's still coming down to 'draw game' for my money. And for actual reasons (Ennoia wins on a physical level, but can't really deal with 'angelic spirit', Yavanna doesn't have enough gun to put Ennoia down thanks to Fortitude and such). ^_^

Mileage may vary!

(I guess we could go with 'at some point Ennoia runs out of blood', but that's...boring)