Velma (gory Scooby-doo HBO Max show)

[Thezmage]

To suggest anyone is a bigot who does not want a racial swap on a character that has looked the same for 60 years is...being pretty loathsome and disingenuous.

If that had been their intention they wouldn't have put those words into Velma's mouth

[Immortal Weapon]

Mindy Kaling seems to be a good casting choice on paper (she has the "right" voice), but wow they did not put their best foot forward with that trailer. While it remains to be seen what the actual show is like, boy is that trailer unfunny. While I have nothing but contempt for the bigots offended by Velma not being white in this show, I don't think the mean-spirited tone is doing the show any favors. I was never onboard once it was announced that they wanted to Scooby-Doo with gore and graphic nudity, but the mean-spirited tone of the trailer is really confirming for me that skipping it is a good idea.

I can't imagine the actual show being any better if Mindy is this comfortable attacking her detractors in a teaser. It doesn't well for the show if the promotional material continues to be confrontational.

[krazijoe]

Looks funny. I get humor, humor is funny. It's not different then a parody movie that makes fun of everything, even fan boys.

[choptop]

To suggest anyone is a bigot who does not want a racial swap on a character that has looked the same for 60 years is...being pretty loathsome and disingenuous.

If I turned on the tv and all the sudden Fat Albert and his crew were white, I'd promptly turn it off, because it would no longer be Fat Albert to me, the character would be fundamentally someone else.

A black James Bond, (Idris Elba) is totally welcomed by me, because Bond's appearance has changed over the years. The skinny Roger Moore had nothing in common with Sean Connery or Daniel Craig. If I saw a black James Bond I'd say cool and totally believe it.

but...Shaggy has looked the same for 60 years, now a racial swap and dreadlocks???....I'm sorry I just can't go there, he's no longer Shaggy to me, he's someone else.

I'll take a pass on this show.

She hasn't looked the same for 60 years though she's looks different in the comics the movies the show's she doesn't always look the same but even if she did what does it matter? If the show is good or bad it has nothing to do with the way she looks.

[Captain Nostalgia]

If that had been their intention they wouldn't have put those words into Velma's mouth

I wasn't referring to the creators, I was referring to a poster on this forum who made that suggestion.

She hasn't looked the same for 60 years though she's looks different in the comics the movies the show's she doesn't always look the same but even if she did what does it matter? If the show is good or bad it has nothing to do with the way she looks.

She's looked pretty much the same for me for 60 years.

If they change Doctor Who to a woman, or someone of a different pigmentation colour (ie race; I'm not entirely sold that race exists) wouldn't bother me one bit, because Doctor Who always changes.

I was primarily referring to Shaggy not Thelma. So I have to ask the question why do it? It seems politically motivated to me, and injecting politics into art is never a good thing because it's inherently divisive....hence why these changes often result in financial bombs.

Just leave characters how they are, and how people remember them, and they will sell.

I think a lot of these producers forget that the prime directive is to make as much money as possible.

[WebLurker]

For some reason I get the sense Kaling doesn't like Scooby.

Maybe, unless it's just the irreverent tone being overdone. That said, I will concede that you can poke fun at something while still respecting it overall (e.g. Star Trek: Lower Decks) and this ain't it. I've seen one or two other interviews where she does seem to like the property, but it doesn't seem to be translating into the actual marketing (e.g. that leaked character sheet).

To be honest I don't really care about the race-bending beyond the fact that it seems Kaling is trying to vicariously live through Velma in this, but what bothers me more is how it feels like it's completely missing the point of Scooby and the Gang.[/QUOTE]

No thoughts on whether new Velma is just Kaling cosplaying (only saw her in Inside Out), but the point of it does seem to completely change everything for whatever reason (I'm pretty sure the trailer "joke" about Velma being a toxic Jetsons fan r.e. a reboot wasn't just to thumb her nose at the haters). I kinda feel like, given what we've seen, Kaling might've been better served making a Scooby-Doo parody (like that Meddling Kids novel) than trying to make an actual Scooby-Doo show.

I can't imagine the actual show being any better if Mindy is this comfortable attacking her detractors in a teaser. It doesn't well for the show if the promotional material continues to be confrontational.

To be fair, the racists angry that Velma is being depicted as non-white are the ones Kaling and company should not be listening to period. While I'm not supportive of Kaling's plans based on what we've seen, I have a degree of respect for an artist who's willing to see their vision through, naysayers be damned. I think, in this case, not counting that she's perverting something that belongs to children first and foremost (e.g. the graphic material), I do agree that the shade against the naysayers isn't working (in part, it's just not funny and you need to know the stories around the production to get it) and, so far, it feels like it's being sold on the gimmicks of everything being different and seeing children's cartoon characters cuss and enact in slasher movie scenes (which is pretty childish in and of itself) rather than on the new storytelling opportunities an AU premise like this offers.

As much as really don't like this the more I learn about it, I think it's worth noting that classic Scooby-Doo always comes back and the outliers like this tend to not make much of a splash. At worst, this'll just be another Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get a Clue (e.g. an in-name only Scooby project that's mostly remembered due to the WTH factor) and those that don't want to see it just having to wait it out until an new classic project is announced.

[j9ac9k]

I was primarily referring to Shaggy not Thelma. So I have to ask the question why do it? It seems politically motivated to me, and injecting politics into art is never a good thing because it's inherently divisive....hence why these changes often result in financial bombs.

You don't sound interested in "art." You want to be coddled with a safe bedtime story. Nothing wrong with wanting that, but to suggest removing politics or divisiveness from art is ... like saying all food should be McDonald's.

It's laughable to me how often detractors use the term "politics" to push back against diversity. As though decades and millions of hours of tv and movies pushing straight white male exceptionalism wasn't "political." Who do you think is being "divided" by these decisions? You mean as opposed to back in the day when 99% of characters were white and everyone else just fell in line because they had no voice? If you really think there wasn't any division then you're deluding yourself. Believe me, I started rolling my eyes at "yet another straight white male protagonist who was effortlessly better than everyone around him" long before anyone complained about anything being woke.

Also, the whole "go woke, go broke" thing is stupid because most things fail. But now that there are more and more inclusive projects being made, you will see more fail. But those are held under a microscope and the failure is being placed on being "woke" as opposed to all the same reasons many "non-woke" shows also fail.

[Captain Nostalgia]

You don't sound interested in "art." You want to be coddled with a safe bedtime story. Nothing wrong with wanting that, but to suggest removing politics or divisiveness from art is ... like saying all food should be McDonald's.

It's laughable to me how often detractors use the term "politics" to push back against diversity. As though decades and millions of hours of tv and movies pushing straight white male exceptionalism wasn't "political." Who do you think is being "divided" by these decisions? You mean as opposed to back in the day when 99% of characters were white and everyone else just fell in line because they had no voice? If you really think there wasn't any division then you're deluding yourself. Believe me, I started rolling my eyes at "yet another straight white male protagonist who was effortlessly better than everyone around him" long before anyone complained about anything being woke.

Also, the whole "go woke, go broke" thing is stupid because most things fail. But now that there are more and more inclusive projects being made, you will see more fail. But those are held under a microscope and the failure is being placed on being "woke" as opposed to all the same reasons many "non-woke" shows also fail.

Well if it's not politics than tell me what it is J9, because your response sounds pretty political to me?

Why is it that people who simply don't want their favourite characters appearance radically changed because then it becomes a different character to them are automatically labelled as racists. The vast majority of them who are non political and find themselves being horrendously labelled. You don't find that a tad creepy?

The issue isn't skin pigmentation, gender, age, or body positivity to them. It's simply don't touch or alter my favourite characters please, and the only reason I can see someone wanting to change them is because of politics, I mean why else would you do it?

Was racism more prevalent "back in the day" absolutely, but the characters were white primarily out of demographics not politics. Have you ever looked at the census data for the late 60's early 70's, close to 90% of the population were Caucasian, or if you prefer the more crass term white.

Were both hardcore DC fans so....

I could care less if 90% of DC comic characters are non white, but the ones who are my favourite, be they labelled white (Hal Jordan), or brown (Bronze Tiger), or Asian (Lady Shiva) ,or whatever absurd skin pigmentation label we attach to people, aren't touched or altered in anyway I am fine.

In short, people are politely saying, please don't change my favourite characters, because I simply won't buy the product if you do.

[j9ac9k]

In short, people are politely saying, please don't change my favourite characters, because I simply won't buy the product if you do.

You and I both know there a lot of people not being polite about it.

Also, my point was that it's always been political. To say that it's suddenly political now, is ignoring the past. Unfortunately, one can't avoid "politics" but some politics are easier to ignore than others apparently.

And falling back on the census only serves to justify systemic racism. So basically majority rules, and minorities are second class?

Also, characters who've been around a long time get updated all the time - whether it's aesthetically, or with their backstory or personality tweaks, etc. but add some cultural diversity and some fragile people lose their ****.

[anyajenkins]

I don’t know if ‘if white male male protagonist is effortlessly better than everyone else’ ever applied to Scooby Do, lol. The main ‘protagonist’ was the talking dog and his white male best friend was an idiot and pot head. Fred was competent in the first show, but has also been an idiot in the all the later versions.

That said, I don’t really care much about race swapping, but have no interest in gore and nudity in scooby do show. That’s like a slasher Mr. Rogers…just no.

[j9ac9k]

I don’t know if ‘if white male male protagonist is effortlessly better than everyone else’ ever applied to Scooby Do, lol. The main ‘protagonist’ was the talking dog and his white male best friend was an idiot and pot head. Fred was competent in the first show, but has also been an idiot in the all the later versions.

That said, I don’t really care much about race swapping, but have no interest in gore and nudity in scooby do show. That’s like a slasher Mr. Rogers…just no.

No, I wasn't referring to Scooby-Doo when I was talking about shows featuring a "[straight] white ... male protagonist [who] is effortlessly better than everyone else." I was talking about the **** ton of other shows that's existed.

[Captain Nostalgia]

You and I both know there a lot of people not being polite about it.

Also, my point was that it's always been "political." To say that it's suddenly political now, is ignoring the past. Unfortunately, one can't avoid "politics" but some politics are easier to ignore than others apparently.

I wouldn't know, I don't generally follow the media, but I imagine you are right, there are bigots and racists of all stripes out there, but....

the vast majority of people who oppose having a skin pigmentation, gender, or body positivity change to a character, is simply because when you fundamentally change a characters appearance, to them, it's now a completely different character, because these are things we cannot change in the real world....the latter one being more flexible.

I am aware of Hollywood's racist past, but I do not think the decision to make the Scooby Doo characters all white, had anything to do with politics, I think it was simply because that was the demographics of the time. If Scooby Doo were to premier today I would expect the cast to be diverse, and I doubt few would complain about it, because that is the demographics of today.

So simply put, I don't think it's always been "political" I think a lot of it was just a benign reflection of yesteryears demographics.

[Frontier]

If Scooby doesn't show up at all in the first season, I'm just going to assume Kaling wanted nothing to do with him.

Or even if he does show up, I can't imagine it'll be in a recognizable way.

[j9ac9k]

So simply put, I don't think it's always been "political" I think a lot of it was just a benign reflection of yesteryears demographics.

I don't doubt your sincerity and that you mean well, but I honestly think you have your head in the sand. We'll just have to disagree, because it's way too much to get into here. I do hope you give it a chance because it might be good, or it might not, but I believe it will likely come down to - as with all shows - the writing and the execution and the other stuff won't really be a factor. I guess we'll see.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I don't doubt your sincerity and that you mean well, but I honestly think you have your head in the sand. We'll just have to disagree, because it's way too much to get into here. I do hope you give it a chance because it might be good, or it might not, but I believe it will likely come down to - as with all shows - the writing and the execution and the other stuff won't really be a factor. I guess we'll see.

Fair enough, I think it's best that we agree to disagree as well.

This topic is like handling a piece of dynamite on this forum, and I could see this getting ugly really fast with less sincere people entering the fray.

As for my head in the sand, I'm well versed in politics, but I choose to steer clear of it because they are inherently divisive (Setting one person up as good and another person as evil, depending on your perspective) they don't do much to unite people or solve a difference of opinion constructively.