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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    My issue is that Matt in his movies has done an incredibly poor job of maintaining his secret identity. He did a lot of superhuman things IN PUBLIC as Murdock. So I don't understand why he keeps the pretense. And it's not gonna do him any harm if Ultron, Doctor Doom, Thanos or Galactus knows who the hell he is. I was against Parker having his secret identity restored to be honest. I fully acknowledge most people want dudes like him and Wayne to have separate lives and I'm in the minority here. But I feel that heroes should not only fight the bad guys (and gals). They should also support each other as well. And they can't do that if they don't know each other. I suppose it would be all right if Matt kept his secret identity in regards to the general public. But NOT to other superheroes and his family and friends.

  2. #77
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    My issue is that Matt in his movies has done an incredibly poor job of maintaining his secret identity. He did a lot of superhuman things IN PUBLIC as Murdock. So I don't understand why he keeps the pretense. And it's not gonna do him any harm if Ultron, Doctor Doom, Thanos or Galactus knows who the hell he is. I was against Parker having his secret identity restored to be honest. I fully acknowledge most people want dudes like him and Wayne to have separate lives and I'm in the minority here. But I feel that heroes should not only fight the bad guys (and gals). They should also support each other as well. And they can't do that if they don't know each other. I suppose it would be all right if Matt kept his secret identity in regards to the general public. But NOT to other superheroes and his family and friends.
    I mean, considering the type of street-level and vicious criminals that Matt deals with they would probably make his life a living nightmare if it was public. Born Again was a thing.

    And even a Superhero support system can only do so much. I remember during the Bendis era he had the Luke Cage family on retainer but it didn't help that much. Of course for team-ups knowing each others' identity never seems to matter that much.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member InfamousBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    My issue is that Matt in his movies has done an incredibly poor job of maintaining his secret identity. He did a lot of superhuman things IN PUBLIC as Murdock. So I don't understand why he keeps the pretense. And it's not gonna do him any harm if Ultron, Doctor Doom, Thanos or Galactus knows who the hell he is. I was against Parker having his secret identity restored to be honest. I fully acknowledge most people want dudes like him and Wayne to have separate lives and I'm in the minority here. But I feel that heroes should not only fight the bad guys (and gals). They should also support each other as well. And they can't do that if they don't know each other. I suppose it would be all right if Matt kept his secret identity in regards to the general public. But NOT to other superheroes and his family and friends.
    I see what you mean though I kind of disagree.

    I have already said why I think Matt needs the secret identity. Just like Peter Parker. Just like Batman.
    "Life is too short so love the one you got cause you might get run over or you might get shot" - Sublime

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    If Matt wants to keep his secret identity, he shouldn't be showing off his powers too much in public. I actually do understand why Spidey and Batman need their secret identities. And I can see why Murdock needs his. BUT...I think it IS possible for DD to "go public" with his hero status. That's the main thing I'm looking for in regards to the new MCU version. Will he keep it? I always felt that the superheroes in the MCU always looked out for one another. That's one of its appeals in my opinion. The camaraderie in the movies/shows might work better on screen as opposed to in the comic books.

  5. #80
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    If Matt wants to keep his secret identity, he shouldn't be showing off his powers too much in public. I actually do understand why Spidey and Batman need their secret identities. And I can see why Murdock needs his. BUT...I think it IS possible for DD to "go public" with his hero status. That's the main thing I'm looking for in regards to the new MCU version. Will he keep it? I always felt that the superheroes in the MCU always looked out for one another. That's one of its appeals in my opinion. The camaraderie in the movies/shows might work better on screen as opposed to in the comic books.
    I think they only really look after one another when they get paired with each other.

    Nobody was there for Wanda after Endgame.

    Sam hadn't seen Bucky since probably when Steve went back in time.

    Nobody but Dr. Strange was there to help Peter after he got outted.

    Even in the comics The Avengers notoriously are pretty bad about taking care of each other outside the team.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think they only really look after one another when they get paired with each other.

    Nobody was there for Wanda after Endgame.

    Sam hadn't seen Bucky since probably when Steve went back in time.

    Nobody but Dr. Strange was there to help Peter after he got outted.

    Even in the comics The Avengers notoriously are pretty bad about taking care of each other outside the team.
    I agree that they only really support one another in the Avengers movies (I'm including Captain America 3 in that list), but the support is there when the band gets back together. I imagine DD will be part of some ensemble team later on. I would hope he KNOWS the folks he will be interacting with. I like the idea that superheroes can be friends as well as colleagues. But for that to happen, I think secret identities have got to go.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-26-2022 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #82
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I agree that they only really support one another in the Avengers movies (I'm including Captain America 3 in that list), but the support is there when the band gets back together. I imagine DD will be part of some ensemble team later on. I would hope he KNOWS the folks he will be interacting with. I like the idea that superheroes can be friends as well as colleagues. But for that to happen, I think secret identities have to go.
    I don't see DD on an ensemble team unless it's another street-level group.

    Of course DD was pals with other heroes without them needing to know who he was under that mask, same with Spider-Man, so I don't think it's all that necessary. I'm worried enough that Spider-Man will still be taking his mask off all the time in future team-up movies.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't see DD on an ensemble team unless it's another street-level group.

    Of course DD was pals with other heroes without them needing to know who he was under that mask, same with Spider-Man, so I don't think it's all that necessary. I'm worried enough that Spider-Man will still be taking his mask off all the time in future team-up movies.
    Yeah, you're right. That's totally true. I'm just really curious to see where the MCU goes with secret identities at this point. I'm a casual fan of the street-level corner of Marvel Comics, so I'm not too familiar with the stories that take place there. Surprisingly, the MCU has shied away from "urban" stories for more than a dozen years. I think that's because they are more gritty and R-rated in nature (which flies in the face of the sunny family-friendly vibe of the MCU as a whole). The MCU is in a weird spot to me. The stakes are getting bigger and more epic over time, BUT the heroes in those stories appear pretty much indestructible (so the stakes are NOT high at all in that sense).

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yes, Murdock is DD in the MCU now. But I still don't understand why this secret identity thing is so important. By demonstrating his superhuman reflexes in catching that brick in front of a BUNCH OF PEOPLE in NWH, it just shows me that he really doesn't care about keeping his identity a secret. Normal folks absolutely DON'T do shit like that. I think a reboot is happening because Feige doesn't wanna force MCU viewers (who are used to family-friendly fare) to watch R-rated content in order to learn about his origins. That's also like forty hours of content to watch. Stick to things like the law, visual impairment and Catholicism for a character like Matt. Plenty of superheroes and supervillains in the MCU wear masks and helmets and folks know who they are. I highly doubt that DD fans will revolt if he reveals to the world that he is Murdock. Let's mix things up and do something new.
    Aren't you overthinking that scene? That was a "you have a second to react" moment, there was no time to consider pros and cons, options and courses of action. And, in any case, it's not really something that clearly reveals his identity. The Parkers can suspect that there's something amiss with him, but so what? It wasn't a "only X could have done that" thing. Many superhumans could have done this feat, Murdock may be any of them. In fact, as a result of the things that happened at the end of "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." second season, there are many guys with superpowers around, who are neither heroes nor villains.

    The scene is there for our benefit, not to serve the main plot. Without it, we would be discussing if this is Matt Murdock / Daredevil, or just a rebooted plain Matt Murdock with no superpowers, who would get them at some later point (or stay confined to such cameos). The scene settled the discussion before it started, this is Daredevil.

    As for Feige, remember that the MCU has long abandoned the concern for making works standalone. By now, you are either fully involved, or you aren't. Try to find someone who has never seen any MCU work (or better, any superhero films), take him to see "Avengers Endgame", "No way home" or "Multiverse of Madness", and ask him if he could understood any of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, you're right. That's totally true. I'm just really curious to see where the MCU goes with secret identities at this point. I'm a casual fan of the street-level corner of Marvel Comics, so I'm not too familiar with the stories that take place there. Surprisingly, the MCU has shied away from "urban" stories for more than a dozen years. I think that's because they are more gritty and R-rated in nature (which flies in the face of the sunny family-friendly vibe of the MCU as a whole). The MCU is in a weird spot to me. The stakes are getting bigger and more epic over time, BUT the heroes in those stories appear pretty much indestructible (so the stakes are NOT high at all in that sense).
    What are you talking about? The MCU has a whole "urban" universe within the larger one: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Defenders, Punisher; all with their respective related characters, allies, villains and lore. In fact, I suspect that if we sum the runtime of all the Netflix episodes of all those series, we would surpass the combined runtime of all MCU films by a wide margin.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    I probably am overthinking it yeah. But I need reasons to justify my opposition to secret identities, so I'm clinging to that rationalization for now. Besides, only Parker (I think?) knows what happened now since Aunt May is dead and Foggy lost his memories. Yes, I agree that scene established that Murdock is part of Feige's MCU now. Daredevil's formal debut will probably happen soon. I'm caught up on the MCU movies and Disney Plus television shows (just finished Moon Knight). But it's just too much for me to watch the ABC/Netflix stuff. Marvel Studios is already giving me PLENTY of homework these days.

    I apologize for not making myself clear. That was my fault. I meant that Feige seems to have been quite reluctant to do local, urban-based stories for his movies and Disney Plus shows. I'm not talking about the Netflix Marvel stuff. When you think about it, Hawkeye was probably the first Feige-produced Marvel property which was more "street-level". But it wasn't really if you think about it. The Hawkeyes' trick arrows are heavily based on advanced tech and the final battles of that series were really bombastic. Besides, a lot of the Hawkeye series had the two main protagonists hanging out with New York City's elite. From what I understand, DC's and Marvel's street-level material is more gritty and grounded and based in working-class communities within major urban centers. Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Black Widow and even Moon Knight were VERY international in scope (with Falcon and Winter Soldier and Black Widow being heavily based on tech and Moon Knight having a foundation in Egyptian mythology). Feige and his top producers haven't touched ANY of that "local and urban" kind of storytelling. Like at all. It's too dark. It flies in the face of the Disney/Marvel brand of family-friendly content. I personally enjoy the mythological, cosmic, mystical and tech-based stories that are the MCU's bread-and-butter. Even though I HATE how the MCU is using "time travel", "alternate universes" and "magic" to make their stories (albeit really entertaining) even more ridiculous. So you would think I would favor the street-level stuff, but I don't because of its often bleak and cynical nature.

    What I'm trying to say is that Marvel Studios seems profoundly uncomfortable in regards to engaging in dark and gritty comic book storytelling at local and urban levels. When Daredevil's new series concludes, it'll probably end up in a HUGE CGI-fest like the rest of the MCU's projects. The MCU is about BOMBAST. Street-level stuff is just too "personal", "grounded", and "low-key" in my opinion. That's why I support Daredevil and his Netflix colleagues abandoning that grimdark material and embracing more international, cosmic and tech-based storytelling. Maybe even give Daredevil some Stark technology. Reduce the working-class pathos and guilt-based nature of Matt's stories and have him hang with the superhero crowd openly and happily. That's what I want as an MCU fan. I want DD to have his live-action stories to match the sunny tone of the wider MCU. Daredevil is part of the MARVEL cinematic universe and NOT the LAW & ORDER cinematic universe!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2022 at 11:18 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    But then Murdock would be segregated from the rest of the "hero community". I'm against that.
    See, I actually like that he's always been more or less segregated from the rest of the Marvel Universe. For the most part, he's a loner and that's a huge part of his appeal to me. He generally doesn't get sucked into those hugely ridiculous crossovers they seem to have every few weeks in the comics, which I generally avoid, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    It would be weird if the MCU started the whole secret identity thing again after distinguishing itself from other superhero properties by getting rid of them so quickly.
    In re to secret ids in the MCU, most of these characters never really used them in the first place because they were never really integral to their characters. Cap didn't, Tony didn't, the Guardians were space guys so they weren't really necessary. Most of them were just public figures akin to celebrities. DD and Spidey aren't and aren't interested in that. If anything, that would make them more unique in this universe. Why take that uniqueness away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I'm also fairly certain that Parker's identity will be revealed at least to his friends and family AGAIN eventually...SO boring. Don't play the old hits. Let's hear some new material please.
    How much new material can be added until they're entirely different characters, though? I think there are enough public figure superheroes in the MCU that we can have a few that are more private.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    So you would think I would favor the street-level stuff, but I don't because of its often bleak and cynical nature.
    See, this is another thing that I think is unique about the original Netflix shows. It mixed it up a little bit and I liked that. That and I prefer street-level stuff to world and universe shattering events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that Marvel Studios seems profoundly uncomfortable in engaging in dark and gritty comic book storytelling at local and urban levels. When Daredevil's new series concludes, it'll probably end up in HUGE CGI-fest like the rest of the MCU's projects. The MCU is about BOMBAST. Street-level stuff is just too "personal", "grounded", and "low-key" in my opinion. That's why I support Daredevil and his Netflix colleagues abandoning that grimdark material and embracing more international, cosmic and tech-based storytelling. Maybe even give Daredevil some Stark technology. Reduce the working-class pathos and guilt-based nature of Matt's stories and have him hang with the superhero crowd openly and happily. That's what I want as an MCU fan. I want DD to have his live-action stories to match the sunny tone of the wider MCU. Daredevil is part of the MARVEL cinematic universe and NOT the LAW & ORDER cinematic universe!
    Yeah, you're basically stripping the character of everything that makes him appealing. If they go this route, I'm out. This sounds like when they tried to make Superman grimdark in the DCEU. Different characters have different appeals and need to be treated differently because of said appeals.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  13. #88

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    Daredevil was my favorite superhero show so I have concerns. But I'm curious how they would handle it. I thought the Mark Waid run was a good proof of concept for a lighter take on Daredevil. I wanna see the Owl and the other silver age bozos pop up.

    Stilt-man or bust.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Daredevil was my favorite superhero show so I have concerns. But I'm curious how they would handle it. I thought the Mark Waid run was a good proof of concept for a lighter take on Daredevil. I wanna see the Owl and the other silver age bozos pop up.

    Stilt-man or bust.
    Luckily, they already have a built in Owl, they just have to introduce him. I gotta say, I've been impressed with how they've portrayed Stilt Man at least since Bendis. I'm dying for The Matador, personally.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    That's why I support Daredevil and his Netflix colleagues abandoning that grimdark material and embracing more international, cosmic and tech-based storytelling. Maybe even give Daredevil some Stark technology. Reduce the working-class pathos and guilt-based nature of Matt's stories and have him hang with the superhero crowd openly and happily. That's what I want as an MCU fan. I want DD to have his live-action stories to match the sunny tone of the wider MCU. Daredevil is part of the MARVEL cinematic universe and NOT the LAW & ORDER cinematic universe!
    Then you should be asking for Marvel to adapt other characters and NOT Daredevil, because NONE OF THAT IS DD. He can play in those kinds of stories, as a guest or team character, but it's not what he's good at.

    If Marvel takes your approach, I am 100% out. Daredevil in Name Only isn't what I want to watch. If you have to fundamentally alter the very core of the character then just don't do it. Even the biggest changes the MCU has made have stayed true to the heart of the character (Hawkeye being the nearest exception, only because he's more heavily inspired by the Ultimate version of the character than the main 616 version).

    Now, you can totally do lighter, less dark stories and still stay true to DD. Mark Waid being the latest example. Daredevil definitely has an adventurous, swashbuckling side. And you can build tension around the fact that Matt isn't fully comfortable when things are going well, or is always at risk of falling back into depression. And I absolutely think Cox can do a little bit more of the quipping, sly one liner thing. But it would be a HUGE mistake for Marvel to throw the baby out with the bathwater where DD is concerned.

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